Ro's Rehearsal/studio rooms. [stage: build]

First of all I feel the need to say that this site is THE one and only resource for studio/acoustics/construction, this forum just owns! Okay having said that.. Hai there, My name is Roman, from the Netherlands (Leeuwarden to be exact) I'm running a rehearsal studio for bands which has 3 floors. It also has a low budget control room on the 3rd floor. I've been reading this forum for a few years already since I planned a remodeling of the rehearsal building but never got to it. Lately there's been some inspections (fire departement and local government for isolation standards etc.) and, as I expected, I didn't pass. Well, I wanted a make over anyway... So, not a better time than now to catch up on my studio construction. Been reading the whole forum for the last 2 weeks just to get comfortable with technical terms, standards, acoustics, materials and what not. Still got some questions tho. here are my plans: Re build all floors, starting with the 2nd floor (building up experience by starting with just 1 room) 1st floor: entrance, stair, little space to store bikes and 1 rehearsal room 2nd floor: stairs, relax area and 1 rehearsal room 3rd floor: stair, rehearsal/recording room, control room Exterior wall: 1 layer of (solid) bricks Floors: ground floor is concrete, 2nd and 3rd are wood "resting" on 300 mm thick wooden carrier beams. spaced about 100cm apart (ctc) 2nd and 3rd floor have windows which will be closed up No broken windows afaik. 1 fire escape per floor (within the rehearsal rooms). dimensions: 3,5mx10mx2,45m per floor (not that big/wide) Dunno exact specs of the building (yet). By the looks of it, it's a 100mm thick brick wall (bricks are layered in length irc. have to check again). The walls will be rendered with cement on the inside. That's already covered. Budget: about $4000 Most important is to isolate sound from inside going outside the building. Acoustics inside are second to concert about. have to do pre DB testing to see what's the TL in current state Accoustics Using panels etc to improve acoustics inside. will do that stuff later on, isolation is most important right now. electrical Will be covered by present experts, completely rewire the building climate We want air refreshing since rooms will be closed isolated. using 2 channels, air in and out. Will be covered by present experts completely isolate all (rehearsal) rooms by building a room in a room by: - Adding floating floor (rubber/neoprene+frame+insulation+plywood+carpet/lamination) - Building frame in front of exterior walls(MAM: (ext.wall +) air+metal studs+insulation (cheap stuff, open cell)+2x5/8Gyps) - Building separation walls (MAM: 2x5/8+frame+insul+air+frame+insul+2x5/8 ) - Adding ceiling (insulate+RC+1x5/8 Gyps. only 1 layer since transm.loss from floor to floor isn't THAT important in this case). Only ceiling in 3rd floor may need extra layer. Caulk and stuff.. the works. (Still looking around for a good acc.caulking seller) Q: (1) I've seen documents about using STEEL and WOOD studs. Seems like Steel's the way to go (slightly improved STC), easy construction. I'm a bit worried about the stability tho... Wood seems stronger. Will steel studs hold 2x5/8 Gyps weight? Any one done that? (2) Do I build the walls ON TOP of the floating floor, or do a put the floor INSIDE the walls? (I'm concerned 'bout weights/rubber compression etc) (3) Is it wise to add insulation on the inside of the exterior walls? (to create: wall+insul+air+insul+wall). any examples if so? (on how to mount, should I add another frame to the brick wall?) I quess more Questions later :) ps. currently drawing plans using microsoft Visio. But could not find any shapes for Insulation, RC etc. Any one? regards, Ro.

Aloha and welcome to the Forum Ro, :D I seem to recall reading several threads pointing out the issues that need to be considered when mulitiple floors are concerned, particularly in reference to the load bearing capabilities. One of the side effects of achieving isolation is the increased amount of weight that the structure needs to support. :shock: Perhaps a forum search on the topic would prove fruitful. as well as talking to a structural engineer. :wink: Be safe. Aloha 8)

The building is an old storagehouse and has heavy support beams. It's already heave loaded. Don't think it'll be a problem.

Can you describe more thoroughly the existing construction - materials, thicknesses, state of repair (holes in walls, broken windows, whatever)? You mentioned brick walls, are these 50x100x400mm or other, laid so the wall is 100mm thick or 400mm thick? Are the bricks visible or are they "rendered" with mortar? Don't worry about long posts, this is a detail-oriented endeavor. Am I correct in assuming you want to have several bands, probably metal-oriented, LOUD, all rehearsing at once and NOT wanting to play to the OTHER band's beat?? What's your rough budget? Also, if you re-read the "don't even THINK..." post and follow ALL the BOLD points, it will help us help you quicker... Steve

i've edited my first post with extra details: Dunno exact specs of the building (yet). By the looks of it, it's a 100mm thick brick wall (bricks are layed in length irc. have to check again). The walls will be rendered with cement on the inside. That's already covered. Jup, metal, rock. whatever. Not all to crowded every night, about 3 bands per floor. Every floor "rests" on 300 mm thick woodcarrier. Groundfloor is concrete, rest is wood. No broken windows afaik. 1 fire escape per floor (within the rehearsal rooms). Budget: about $4000 Don't worry, we have some "experts" for construction work but none for the real soundproof/isolation/accoustuc stuff but me. I'm a techhead who knows how to handle tools too :) Building structures is not foreign to me but making them soundproof is something else eh.

Yeah, soundproofing is anything but intuitive - I still need more info on your building before knowing if it's doable though - you say there's 300mm beams, but how far apart are they, what's their longest unsupported distance (span), what EXACTLY is the flooring on top of them, etc? The level of detail we need is pretty deep, if we're gonna get this right; deep enough that I could go out and buy the materials and BUILD your building. Otherwise, I'm just talking out my rear here (might be anyway :? ) How many rehearsal rooms total? I think I got lost on that one. Oh, and WHY did you not pass inspection? Might help to know that too... Steve

* Why I did not pass code :) Quess... it ain't soundproof and I got complains from neighbours. Also fire inspections did not pass, too many materials that are e.z. flameable. -------------------------------- Okay, I haven't been poking my noose lately. done more research and reading on specs. Got specs from my building and made a first plan. Done some drawing in Visio (I was new to that program, but got the hang of it :) ) Here are the exact dimensions: 10,30m x 3,90m x 7,5m (lxwxh) Building consists of 3 floors, all of equal floorspace. floorspace per floor = 990cmx345cm [about 33'x11.5'], 245cm [8.2'] in height Outer brickwall, 200mm [7.8"] wide rendered on the inside (but with cracks and holes so I need to fix that) Support beams, 70mmx230mm, are spaced about 110cm [43"] (ctc) and max span = about 350cm [13.8"] Here's the plan foor the first floor (groundlevel) On the right is the entrance and the stairs to the next floor. Left is the first rehearsal room. All rooms will have a gypsumboard wall using metalstuds (100mm) stuffed with Isover Sonepanel 100mm (only found specs for 90mm)

Freq    (Hz)	125	[removed]	2000	4000	NRC
90 mm	0,74	1,08	1,09	0,97	0,91	0,94	1,00

Same plan for the other floors: Floor 1 Floor 2, plan A Plan B (there are windows on the topfloor which have to be closed/beafed up) Floorplan B advantage against plan A (in plan A the studiocontrol room is called "opslag"..gheh) - More actual space in rehearsal room - Better isolation between room and neighbours (at the right) - escape doors are better to reach Downside: "studio controlroom" (ahum) is not locked and close to stairways. BUT, it's only a seperated room to get instruments recorded. Actual studio space is @ another location (for mixing, mastering etc). This only to record heavy instruments like Drumkits. Also fire-exit doors must have extra mass. The only important matter here is to isolate rooms, so neighbours can't complain :) (oh, and have it fire save ofcourse) As you can see, all floors will have a room-in-room construction. Since the outerwall is brick I can go somewhat easy on the gypsum (hence the 12.5mm / 1/2") Hell, I haven't found a vendor who could even sell me the 5/8" thick boards! This will rate as STC 90+ not? Materials to be used walls: Gypsumboard 12,5mm (240cmx120cm), 3 layers u + c metalstuds 100mm Isover sonepanel isolation sheets 100mm Ceiling RC8 Resilient channel Gypsumboard 12,5mm (240cmx120cm), 2 layers Isover sonepanel isolation sheets 100mm (floating) Floor: Woodframe (38mmx50mm / 1.5"x2") Resting on U-Boat floorfloaters (auralex) MDF 12mm Laminated prolly. ... I do have some questions left. Will be posting them next.

And now for the questions... Room accoustics As you might have noticed I used parallel walls since space is spare. (only about 11 foot wide), there's a minimum angle to be used which I forgot at this very moment :oops: I've considered building one of the walls like this the next picture. But that'll take some extra time and mudding etc. So, in order to get better room accoustics, I was planning on adding bass/broadband traps, diffusers etc. Any thoughts on that? Another thing, could I build corcerbasstraps withing the wall? like the next picture shows? My guess is not, but I'm never sure... gheh.

..first of all *BUMP * :) Yes, it's been a while but I've done some homework as well as hanging out here. updates: - A accoustical test will be performed in the next weeks which will tell us what the weakpoints are for the building. Will be done by a pro engineering compagny. The results will also be used to add to the permit request towards the government. lotsa bureacrats there.... man! - The "plan" has been made and is close to get finished. I wanted to do some last checks here on the board. - Been collecting materials in the meantime, like heavy doors, airfans etc (mostly donations and such) Well. mkay. There's still so much questions....

Building Have to talk to structural engineer concerning my support beams, as stated earlier, they're some heavy bastards but I just wanna be sure. The building was build for storage and it indeed 'looks' like every floor can take some major mass. 3 floors, 1 reh.room per floor. 3rd floor with "studio control room", it's only for tracking. Mixing will be done somewhere else so no real heavy accoustic adjustments needed. support beams: (will take pictures soon) 70mm x 230mm, 110cm spaced apart. 3,50 meters in length (2.75" x 9", 3.6' spaced apart. 11.6' in length) They are in good shape ext walls: 20cm (7.8") thick brickwall, with cement mortal on the inside but heavilly damaged (have to re-do that, about 2.5' thick) windows: On the 3rd floor there are a row of windows. the wood is rotten. I will remove them in total and fill it with bricks. Other floors have 2 windows on one side, I will use 12mm (1/2') MDF wood with wool to cover them up after I removed the glass. Maybe I will even fill it with bricks as I will on the 3rd floor, not sure yet. Rehearsal rooms: Room-in-room principle. Or atleast the walls. Only the rooftop will be extra beefed. Since soundtransmission isolation inside the building, from floor to floor, isn't the highest priority. single frame next to ext wall to add 2nd leaf with airgap between, double frame to seperate rooms. Metalstudframes, 10cm / 3.9' thick, with isover sonepanel glasswool panels. 2 or 3 x 12mm (1/2') gypsum. The total layers needed will depend on the result of the accoustic tests. 2 solidcore doors to enter the room, sealed and what not. Iso added on the inside to absorp waves. I've already got some good solid doors which I collected the last couple of months. those are some real heavy monsters! (man, my back.... ) The new build (extra) walls will be build on top of new/beefed floor. Don't know about floating the floors yet. It's not really necessary other than stop flanking noises from rehearsal rooms to connected spaces like relax-room, studio control room. ** Any advice on that? (floating floor results in hight costs) Ceiling will be beefed by adding gypsumsheets betweeen support beams. Sealed ofcourse. Only 3rd floor will have extra ceiling hanged on RC (since it's the topfloor and sound will leak through the roof) Every floor will have a fire escape which is sealed with solid core doors (2) This will be my major concern. Can't affort any flaws here. Don't want no leak of escaping waves here. Will prolly add some extra mass to the already heavy doors by adding a sheet of gypsum to it. ** any advice? accoustics As stated, isolation is the main goal here. Ofcourse we need the rooms to be gently in sound. So after building the darn monster I'm gonna test the room and add absorbative panels and what not. But that's a concern for later. I will, however, build bass-traps in the corners as much as possible. other Electricity and airflow will be done by myself and some friends who are experts in that area (I myself am a certified electrician... or I was atleast :) ) Airrefresh within 1 hour foor all rooms by tube-fans with accoustic breaks and all that. This will be another leak-risk so we have to plan this one carefully. ** any advice I don't already know? Materials wall: Metalstuds, 10cm frame ISOver sonepanel wool pannels, 10cm Gypsumsheet 12,5mm, 240 x120cm floor: MDF 12mm 122*244 U-boat rubber for floating floor (if I will float any floor) Finished wood/laminate... dunno yet. no carpet for sure. ceiling: Auralex Resilient Channel Gypsumsheet 12,5mm, 240 x120cm sealant: Dunno yet, not much choise here in Holland. How's the stopgap from auralex? (it's not cheap, that's for sure!) door: Solid core (2) ISOver sonepanel wool pannels, 10cm for absortion betewen 2 doors. glas: (studio control room) Laminated 12mm 120x60cm Right, some questions there but most stuff is covered yet. Thanks to this great forum and it's members. We've got a complete team of ppl willing to help out (all musicians, hmmm. no good.. lazy bastards). I'm taking lead. yup, me's the boss haha. I will provide some pictures to back up my plans.

What about neighbours? Any solid contact to a any other building? Then I guess you'd need to do something about the transmission between floor-levels.. if the sound transmits between floor you'd be sure it transmits to the rest of the building (and subsequently to your neighbours). a

Nope, the building stands on it's own. First neighbour window/door is about 10m (33') away. So no direct contact. I own the whole building, no other ppl using it.

oh, that's great, well dunno if I can help you out with this, but I think as you put it, it will be difficult to separate the floors from eachother even with floated floors.. a

I thought about cutting the existing floor (seperate it in two) and do the same with the new floor. Both cuts within the double wall section. But I have to reenforce the floors by doing that, since I will build the wall on top. Dunno yet. On the other hand, it's not a big issue for sound flanking through the floor 'cuz there's only a cantine/relax area to seperate on the 1st floor and a storage/recording room on the 2nd floor. But I'm looking into options here. If just adding the new wood floor (15mm MDF) ontop of a layer rockwool or alike will help, I might consider that. Again, it's no prio.

Cutting the floor??? Wow I wouldn't even dream of doing that, even if you do so, there's no way you can separate the floor by cutting it without still beeing connected to the rest of the structure (unless you do magic). Levetating is a hrd thing to do; So can you get hold of Stepisol in NL? would be something to consider. a

Yeah, I believe Stepisol is called ISOFIX here in the Netherlands. In this photo it's the green stuff on the wall (yup, photo of my OLD studio walls :) )

I dunno, this is what it looks like in sweden. http://www.team-et.se/swedish/bygg.htm best a

:) exactly the same stuff ! Funny cuz I've used it so elevate my current studio control room (as seen on photo, me and my bandmate at the other side of the glas :twisted: ) I've put a layer of Isofix/Stepisol on the floar and floated a 15mm MDF floor ontop, finished with some carpet. Recently I opted the same technique on a improvised drumriser and a basscabinet riser, it does the trick well. Much more detailed sound now! (less low vibrations through flanking, less tremors) Have considered to use that same technique again with the new floors I'm planning. (It's less work than building a complete floated floor, but evenly expensive) Anybody have an idea on this?

The exact generic name for this stuff is rebonded, bonded or agglomerated foam. There are posts about this stuff in the forum here. It's made from grinded scraps from polyesters and polyethers, compressed to higher densities. A lot of those things have very poor fire properties, hence one should check that.

True, it's not really fire proof That's exactly why our current setup didn't pass fire code :( (and another reason for total demolision.. :twisted: ) That stuff has to be preperated in order to pass code. Hmm, gonna think on that one. Thanks for the input, especially on this link: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... rated+foam

I'm still not sure what to do with the floors. But we'll get there. Meanwhile I had some engineers come over to check my current building state and make me an offer for an accoustic measurement (to see where the weakspots are, and to keep the covernment pleased) One of them noted something interesting about my roof. It's a single layer of wood directly on top of the building with tar on top of the wood (on the outside. dunno if tar is the right word here. it's roof finishing) He told me that attaching insulation directly underneath the roof (ON the wood) wasn't according to code. He noticed I had insulation materials attached on it. It's be'coz of moisture that there should be a few inches of space between, just to ventilate. I forgot to ask if it's okay to add wood or gypsym or whatever. (to add mass) Have to check that out, else I have to redraw my roof plans :( (and have less mass on the outer leaf) * The picture ain't all to clear, but this is the roof on floor2 from the inside

Right, Have been thinking about the floors a lot and decided to semi-float them with agglofoam (to cut flanking to existing floor). Atleast the floors on the 2nd and 3rd floor of the building. It'll look something like the attached picture. Dunno which density of foam I've gotta get. Have to do calculations.... dunno dead load yet (yeah I know). Gonna get to that the next days. Still, if I know the dead and expected live load I still don't know how to choose the right density. Could not find much info on that regarding to the mentioned foam. Eric, you've got some info on that? ro.

Ro, Is the underlayment under your floor a "soft" or "hard" material? Reason I ask is because we just finished an office in my basement next to my studio. We put a laminated floor in the office with a "soft" type underlayment (made for hardwood/laminated floors) under it. It doesn't "walk" well at all! There are some areas where you can feel the floor "give in" a little bit when you walk on it. This concerns me because I'm wondering if the laminated sheets will start to "buckle" when weight is added to them. The underlay material I used is suppose to help "quite" the floor. I'm wondering if the guys who put it in ran the underlayment perpendicular to the laminated sheets and it's possibly "giving in" where 2 different underlayment pads meet. This stuff may be made for Pergo (thicker) hardwood floors. When I do my studio I'm looking into having a "hard" surface under my laminated flooring along with butyl sheeting below that. Check this post out if you like concerning this: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4845 Here's a post where Rod gives some good tips on flooring/prepping: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... e&start=45 Lastly, here's a link about a subfloor system that could be used under a laminated floor. (Check out the installation video) http://www.subflor.com/ADVANCE/home.asp UPDATE: Uhhhhhh...The product in the link above may not be good for studio purposes...check this post out... http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6712 Anyway, just something to pass on so you or someone else won't make the same mistake I did

Thanx for the links stan, have read them. I've done flooring before and always used the green hard boards. The picture above shows the (hard) board type (semi soft) underlayment under the finished floor. The green agglofoam, however, is SOFT foam. But there will be a MDF subfloor on top of that to have mass and a smooth floor (sub). The Green board is just to keep the floor leveled and preventing "rattle" (wood on wood) and noise free (and stop some flanking, altho not much. that's what the agglofoam is for)

Ro wrote:

Thanx for the links stan, have read them. I've done flooring before and always used the green hard boards. The picture above shows the (hard) board type (semi soft) underlayment under the finished floor. The green agglofoam, however, is SOFT foam. But there will be a MDF subfloor on top of that to have mass and a smooth floor (sub). The Green board is just to keep the floor leveled and preventing "rattle" (wood on wood) and noise free (and stop some flanking, altho not much. that's what the agglofoam is for)

Even the lowest 60 kg/m3 bonded foam is acoustically rather dense (not mechanically) for just a topfloor in MDF (but better than fiberglass or rockwool). I have this data somewhere in my archives. This is measured by the Belgian WTCB (Wetenschappelijk Technisch Centrum Bouwbedrijf) very long ago for Agglorex in MOL (Belgian producer) which in the Netherlands is distributed by .... damnit name escapes me now ..... Found it: Akousticon But be careful with their advice. Very recently they advised a very heavy multi-leaf floor for rock bands (even with quality concrete top floor system) and it became a costly disaster for their client, typically resulting from a heavy but stupid designed multi-leave system. That project was a very typical example of the risks of multi-leave systems. They really used the principle the heavier and the more leafs the better and at the end the drums came through at > 60 to 65 dB (can't remember) at residential neighbors. Check those links (All Dutch): http://www.prikpagina.nl/read.php?f=130&i=6215&t=6211 I think if you go for a lightweight top floor, that your better off with a structure as with those Auralex beam things or whatever comparable, and fill it up with wool, and control the drum skin effect with Green Glue between double layer. But as always: it depends on what you expect from it. A floating floor/construction varies between a couple of mm polyethylene foam to 1 foot high steel springs. The standard MSM principles apply to floating floors as often described here in the forum and by Steve. There are no magic materials capable of changing physics. Eric Edited: Ro I noticed that you're going to build your wall on top of that floating floor? Then you need different densities and someone must calculate that for you. Maybe Acousticon will? I don't know. I find it risky with this bonded foam in the long run (material fatigue). You only speak about mainly standard polyethers here. I don't know how this behaves in the long run. It's not a matter of density, because there is bonded foam extremely dense. For standard floating floors it's used a lot (even with concrete top floors) and resilient skin walls too. But for more technical applications my guts wonder a bit here... This isn't a NO, but an "I don't know, I should be careful".