Frede's studio getting built

Thats pretty much what I did too. I had an existing particle board floor that I added a layer of 12mm rubber too then I screwed a layer of 21mm MDF through the rubber and sealed all seams, then I screwed a layer of 20mm particleboard flooring into the layer of MDF and sealed all seams. Seems pretty rock solid so far and no vibrations even when you jump on it. JG

Just did a test.... I had my wife hit the jack post in the basement... Couldnt hear anything.

Well done Bryan, Its's a bit spendy, but I'm looking for a perfect membrane, no seems or holes. I have managed to locate 90 mill rubber 10'x50' for US$500. plus shipping. The roll weighs 500 pounds. With this I will be able to rap the first *mass* of the mas*air*mass construction. The only fassners will be at the peak, this will effectively deaden the sound before it reachs the *air*space, then giving the second *mass* its full effective ability. The best thing about this is it stops transfer at the leafs, even metal joist's will transfer some resonance. Imagine limiting the resonance carry of your framing materials, because somewhere you have to have a connection. However, the walls ridding on a 90mill matt would effectively stop transfer to outer rooms. Well? :D

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If you have the cash... Go for it. We are gearing up to build our replacement studio for the one we built back in 2003.... I am sparing no expense (almost. LOL) Will be more costly than the previous one and fully funded (I hate monthly payments....)

Let's just all stop and take a deep breath, OK? Fred, looks to me like a well-meant (but a bit over the top) comment has set you off - I can understand that, but let's not turn this into a war - For one thing, Keith was kind of "type-happy", but was mainly trying to make sure no one made the mistake of continuing to think that carpeting would do ANYTHING to reduce sound transmission, other than reducing foot-fall noise from above. Had I seen that comment first, I too would have mentioned it (gently) - not only do we not want the owner of a thread to do something counterproductive, we also don't want someone ELSE reading that and perpetuating the myth that carpet = soundproofing. On the other hand, I too would have taken exception to the tone used - for one thing, it's difficult enough when typing to actually convey your feelings without misunderstandings - it's even harder once feelings get stepped on and everyone gets defensive. As to experience, until you've built acoustic spaces it's almost not worth talking about; I've been building stuff on and off for 40 years, some Commercial, Some Residential, and some personal - but just over 20 years ago I built what I thought was going to be a sound proof practice room/studio into a pole barn, and was really bummed when my wife could tell me what song I was playing on the piano from inside the house 100 feet away. I've also talked to a few dozen drywall contractors, some as old as me, about using Resilient Channel - to a man, they said it doesn't work; in fact, most said it even made things WORSE. When I asked these guys how they installed it, they all said,"Just nail it on over the existing drywall and add another layer on the channel"... Those guys had probably a total of 200 years experience among them, but what they did NOT have was any knowledge of how the physics of sound isolation actually works. (The above example is a classic "3-leaf" system, and won't work as well as just leaving out the channel and extra drywall) That's why this forum is here; the precious FEW contractors who DO understand isolation construction KNOW they know, and charge accordingly - few of our members have that kind of cash to spend, so the alternative is learning the correct way and doing most of it ourselves. Keith, I know you were just getting over-exuberant, I've been there about 15 years ago when I finally started to realize I wasn't nearly as dumb about this subject as I had been a few years before - still, as mellow as I usually am (sleep deprivation, probably) that STILL sounded like an attack. I think you owe Fred an apology for the tone used, and an edit job that REMOVES that tone, perhaps replacing it with a simple "carpet won't soundproof, it only deadens footfalls", or something similar. Fred, I think YOU also went a bit far; if you'll look around, there are almost NO CASES of abuse on this board ANYWHERE, and NONE that weren't stopped as soon as either John or myself was aware of them. I'm not asking for any apology from you, just that you not make such sweeping statements over one member's transgression. I'll be back later to make sure this gets resolved... Steve

I actually missed Fred'e's post before he edited it down to an empty post... I am certainly sorry that I must have hurt some feelings here. Indeed I meant no harm. But I did mean to startle. Perhaps that was a mistake -- I don't know yet. But here's the thing... If you start at the beginning of this thread and see each of my posts in order, and what I was replying to each time, you'll (hopefully) see that I did mention more than once that you should slow down, Fred... For your sake. I got a sense as things progressed that you were heading for a brick wall at a hundred miles a minute and I genuinely felt the need, for your sake, to sound the alarm. I do apologize for ruffling feathers and/or coming across as arrogant. I'm leaving my original "perhaps not my best work" post intact for now... I'll edit it if needed... Although I think there's a chance that if, as I mentioned before, that if the whole thread is viewed, that my statements can be accepted in their overall context, especially with this clarification that I meant no harm. Peace? :-)

Hey Ketih, Eric Desart and I used to go at it. Just a differnece in over theorizing and over practicality to a guy who is totally not into physics... I found myself realizing I was offending him and apologized for that and after that point it was a good learning and sharing experience for the both of us. :) Hope this is the same. :)

I hope so too, Bryan. Some people are assholes, and some people just appear to be assholes now and then due to intermittent carelessness. Hopefully I'm seen as the latter. ;-) Meanwhile, I've got some concrete to manicure! :lol:

Well My personal experience show me that you are neither :) Have fun Drilling....

I appreciate everyones thoughts, philosophy, even a bit of a burn to a careless meandering. This has been a total waste of everyones time!!!!!!!! I apoligize profoundly, :oops: [/quote]

I am sure all is well, we are a lighthearted bunch hear (no pun intended. LOL)

Not Down Not Out, Agian the studio has undergone huge re-design. I have realized that, it will take a room within a room design to isolate all the sound from a drum kit or band. *I will be sacrificing the golf matt to the new studio gods.* It is a horse trailer matt 3/4" thick, it was never in a horse trailer and has never had a smell as it was on my driving range for 5 years. Anywho, it will be cut into 4 x 4 squares and placed under each 4x12 glu-lam beam. At bearing points, inside and outside bearing walls. It has astro turf glued to it, because I'm inherently lazy, i will try several ways to cut the matt? Any ideas appreciated? i really dought that the astro turf will survive the cutting stage. Next the studio will in no way come into contact with any part of the rest of the building. Including accordian rubber airlock chamber boots for the door access and window reveals. I'm hoping my HVAC contractor can provide these, as they are used on most instalations, of home and commercial HVAC systems. Phone call till later then.

Cool -- I'm glad we're all friends. :-) As far as the horse trailer mat idea goes... Maybe, maybe not. Yes, it is rubbery and might work as an elastomer. However, if I were going to put pucks in my design (which I was originally going to do), I would want those pucks to have some credible testing and specifications behind them. Unfortunately, those mats don't have either. :-( Maybe you're OK with that. However, the risk is that they might not work well for that application -- and even if they do, there's no assurance for how long. I would not want to rely on an untested, experimental, cheap product on which to rest my entire plan, both literally and figuratively. Regardless of what elastomer you use for a floating floor, make absolutely sure you do all the math. What math? For starters, there's the math that ensures you won't overload your elatometers, because overloading could cause premature wear (meaning, they may only last months or days instead of years), or, worse, bottoming out, which would render them useless. Underloading is also detrimental -- they may not spring enough or at all, rendering them useless. There's also the math to ensure that the floor you are floating will have an acceptable resonance frequency. Here's where I'm actually way beyond my expertise -- what I do know is that I don't know enough to do that on my own, and, no offense intended of course, you probably don't either. Not that there aren't people here who can help with that, though, if you decide to go there. That's not to say it's impossible or a bad idea to float. It just means that if you proceed down that path, you need to be prepared to do all the planning and calculations to ensure that the results will indeed be better than if you hadn't floated at all. For what it's worth, though, I think you're definitely on the right track in your "decoupled" thinking. That's all for now... I've got to get back to my concrete manicuring! :roll: --Keith :mrgreen:

Kewl thanks, Very important, the entire studio will be baering down on 4 points directly below the studio. This new design required 4 more glu-lam beams, I am very happy with this design. I will probably use the puck theory under all the beams to stop noice transfer to lower rooms. Note to Keith: I am a mellow guy this is fun for me, but man, you are like a kid with a new "Les Paul and a Marshal Half stack." Please just turn it down a bit. Ya know, like, "Well you can use this,but I would not." "I think that they engineer what your looking for, ever tried this?" Ya know? Thanks, Ireally don't want to think about your posts anymore, I have read many and you need a valium. Peace man 8) We all respect you :!:

Glad to see everyone's happier; just a couple of quick comments, then off to bed (am discovering that 4 hours sleep prior to 12-hour shifts isn't quite cutting it) 1 - I have some of that thick "horse mat" rubber that's been laying outside on the gravel for a few years, and has been around the place in general for about 15 or more; still looks just like it was when new, only dirtier. I've not tested it for durometer (haven't felt like spending the $400 on a durometer tester for one thing) but I'd guess around 70-80 duro... Fred, if you haven't already found the floating floor thread (aaron's) in the REFERENCE section, you should probably read the first few pages; in it, I describe a method to find out how much loading an unknown material requires for optimum life/isolation. This is pretty critical; you wouldn't want to ride over railroad tracks in a car whose springs were already bottomed out, right? Keith, this type of material is called elastomer, I guess an "elastometer" would be something to measure elasticity with??!? Gotta run, toothpicks are starting to bend :shock:

Thanks Steve will do. (nice right up) The whole benchtop thing)

Fred'e wrote:

Note to Keith: I am a mellow guy this is fun for me, but man, you are like a kid with a new "Les Paul and a Marshal Half stack." Please just turn it down a bit.

OK, I'll try to find that volume knob. ;-)

Ya know, like, "Well you can use this,but I would not." "I think that they engineer what your looking for, ever tried this?" Ya know?

Well, that's the problem... Because I abandoned a plethora of floating floor systems on my project, I can only speak about what I avoided and why. That may come across as overly negative, and I'll see if I can work on following such insights with hopeful suggestions. Unfortunately, products designed for the purpose are few and far between, and some of them lack the level of testing and specs that would make me comfortable trusting them. An exception to this is the Mason Industries FSN Floating Floor Isolators as discussed extensively on this thread. This thread also captured a good amount of discussion about my project in general, including the point where I decided to abandon floating at all, largely based on Rod's warnings about structural integrity issues. Unfortunately, most (if not all) of the links on that page to the Mason Industries site are dead -- the Mason site is so out of whack that I can't even find any good URLs to change them to. :x

Thanks, Ireally don't want to think about your posts anymore, I have read many and you need a valium. Peace man 8) We all respect you :!:

OK, that's cool... Then I suppose you didn't read what I just typed... ;-) Seriously, though -- I do appreciate what you're going through right now. I went through so many rollercoaster rides during the design phase of my project that it just about flattened me, as my famiiy will surely attest. :oops: My cure was continued research, sharing of plan iterations, weighing all the feedback, doing my best to separate fact from fiction, and then finally settling on a plan in which I could finally have confidence. Oh, and being granted my construction permit was a huge milestone as well. 8) Again, sorry I caused you so much frustration and hurt feelings. :oops: I'll give you a much needed from my pontifications now. ;-) One more thing...

knightfly wrote:

Keith, this type of material is called elastomer, I guess an "elastometer" would be something to measure elasticity with??!?

I just spent the last ten minutes correcting every instance of my embarrassing misspelling! :oops: There were many! :lol: --Keith :mrgreen:

One more thing before I cease pontification. ;-) You could use the product that Paul Woodlock used on his megaproject. He used Sylomer, which is made by Getzner. Here's some information about it on an Australian supplier's Web site. Getzner is headquartered in Austria has regional offices in Germany, Japan, and Jordan. Don't miss this good thread here on this site that discusses the product in some detail. That is an example of a tried and true product. However, you'll need to be prepared to pay, because it's not cheap. The $64,000 question -- "Where can I get it in the USA?" Unfortunately, I don't know... :roll: I've done many Google searches for US distributors and I come up empty-handed. Perhaps you can find a supplier who will ship internationally -- I think that's what Paul did.

Very well spoken Keith or writen 8) Between cleaning demolition and going over materials with the lumber yard, I read, re-read, and read again that marvelous post; SuperLongLink I have to say this made the most sence; :wink: [/quote]"Where are all the people who didn't float a floor and regret it?" When my head quits spinning, I'll let you know...I hope... :?: Fred, I edited your link so it doesn't make everyone scroll sideways to read the text; if you post long links like that, here's how I do it Thanks Steve! [url=LINK]TextYouActuallySee[/url] I keep a copy of that on my desktop under "tiny url", then I cut/paste as necessary whenever a link runs on forever... Steve

Finaly finished puting up ceiling beams, woowhoo! 8) Finally getting to start on the floor, and get something below me before I stick more holes in the the guest rooms! :x

Fred'e wrote:

. . . I read, re-read, and read again that marvelous post; SuperLongLink I have to say this made the most sence; :wink: "Where are all the people who didn't float a floor and regret it?"

Exactly... :roll: Unfortunately, you'll notice nobody popped in and said, "I'm one who didn't float and I wish I had!" :roll:

When my head quits spinning, I'll let you know...I hope... :?:

Either my head quit spinning sometime in July or August, or I got used to it such that I don't notice it anymore!! :P

I completly agree....this is actually what my theisis was based upon.

Thanks all for posting! Been down for a month with a torn tendon in my elbow, got to the point where I couldn't hold a hammer :( After much accupunture and tunai I am good as new!

Ow! What happened? Construction injury? If so, you may have to contribute to the "Words of Wisdom, or 'How NOT to do it'..." thread or the "Safety During Demolition, Construction" thread! Glad you're feeling better.