Len Morgan's Studio Build Diary

Aren't you glad you learned reality here before you got started? 8) Good luck in finding a supplier for your unfaced insulation. I just Google-mapped Big Spring, Texas, and wow -- you're really far from the big cities... Something that undoubtedly is a challenge when it comes to buying building products that aren't the most common.

sharward wrote:

I just Google-mapped Big Spring, Texas, and wow -- you're really far from the big cities... Something that undoubtedly is a challenge when it comes to buying building products that aren't the most common.

I guess it all depends on your point of view and what you're used to. Midland/Odessa are a little over an hour away West (about 200K population between the two) and Lubbock is just under two hours away North. Midland is just a "trip down the street" when you look at going anywhere else in Texas from Big Spring. We had to make several trips to Dallas to get my wife and step daughters' green cards - a 10 hour round trip. It's just the price you pay for living in the boonies. Of course, when it comes to building supplies, the fact that I drive a Taurus instead of a pickup truck doesn't help. And with gas at 2.69/gallon even the "short" drive to Midland is more and more expensive. With the Internet, I can get just about anything I need as fast as you can. Building supplies (like lumber, drywall, and insulation) are a different story. I can find distributors for such things in the big cities, but as an example, Home Depot in Midland wants $100 to deliver to Big Spring no matter how much you are buying (and that was before gas prices went up). I've read several other posts on the subject of faced vs unfaced insulation IN WALLS and the responses are mixed. In panel absorbers and such, unfaced seems to be the way to go but in those you have something to confine the insulation in the frame. With my open back walls, I don't have anything to hold it up (asside from putting up the zig zag string on the back side). I guess I could always get faced material, put it up with the paper side facing the inside of the room (right up against the drywall) and trying to remove the paper except for an inch or two at the top to hold it up. I wish someone would chime in and tell me if attaching the paper facing to the back of the walls (still leaving the 3 1/2 in gap between the back of the stud wall and the cinder block wall will SIGNIFICANTLY degrade the value of the insulation or cause a problem. On the upside of living in the boonies: No competition! If you look at that map of Big Spring, I haven't got any competition to at least Pecos on the West (150 miles), San Angelo to the South (90 miles), Abilene to the East (110 miles), and Lubbock (110 miles) to the North. That's close to 500K people who have nothing but converted sheds and garages to record in (no offense to those who build THEIR OWN studios in sheds or garages - I'm talking about comercial ventures in purpose-built studios). I had originally thought about adding on to my house to build a (smaller) studio but it didn't not seem professional to have strangers trapesing (sp?) through my house at all hours of the day and night. Not to mention my wife not liking that plan. I should be able to make a commercial go at this if I can get any kind of decent sound out of it. This way I'm getting a more professional looking BUSINESS and it's much bigger than I could have built on my house. I should have room for a few guitars/bass', drums, keyboards, and singers all recording at the same time without feeling to confined. At least that's how I sold it to my wife. :-)

Len, sorry I didn't get to this earlier; on the vapor barrier thing, if the wall isn't an outside wall you don't want a vapor barrier at all; otherwise, for outside walls the vapor barrier goes toward the side of the wall that's warm more of the time; so if you heat for more days than you air condition, the barrier goes to the inside. If you use A/C more than you use heat, the barrier goes to the OUTSIDE. Tyvek is NOT a vapor barrier, it's an AIR barrier and will let vapor move through the wall; poly sheeting IS a vapor barrier, as are heavy oil-base paints, plasticized wood-grain paneling, foil, EPS insulation. Paper is a variable permeability vapor barrier, so isn't quite as critical as the other types as far as moisture control is concerned; but you're right, it WILL mess up sound isolation in some cases, and if used in a wall AT ALL it needs to be against one or the other masses to avoid multi-leaf properties. Of all the above-mentioned barriers, only Tyvek or building felt should be used in a wall where there is another vapor barrier - vapor is smaller and more invasive than air, so an air barrier like Tyvek will still let a wall breathe. You do NOT want two of the less permeable barriers such as poly in ANY wall. HTH... STeve

Thanks for the reply, Steve! You've confused me a little. I THINK you are saying: 1) As long as we're talking about interior partition walls (not the cinder block wall), I don't need a vapor barrier on either side (of the partition wall). 2) I CAN use paper faced insulation in my partition walls but since it won't reach to the cinder block (because the air gap), the paper side should be facing INTO the room and the dry wall applied right over the top. Is there anything I should do before attach the 1st layer of dry wall like spray adhesive or something or just set the staples such that the paper/fiberglass "puffs" a little into the room and the dry wall will push against it (and back into the wall cavity). Thanks for any help. I'm at this stage now. len

Right on both counts; first, paper won't be a BIG effect on multi-leaf problems, and by just stretching the paper snug before stapling it will stay in close contact with your wallboard. As long as you only have ONE material acting as a vapor barrier on an INSIDE PARTITION wall, it should have no bad effect since both sides of the wall should be at the same humiditiy/temperature. Basically, what you just posted is fine... Steve

OK, I'm no expert on vapour barriers either but the moisture on the windows and door would appear to be condensation that may have nothing to do with other insulation in the building. You don't actually want an interior space with NO moisture, you just want to eliminate any condensation problem caused by inadequate insulation - on walls, roof and/or windows. I would investigate double or triple paned glass to deal with the moisture problem. This is assuming that the walls and ceiling are adequately insulated already. Is there moisture on the interior walls at the times the glass is wet? If not, maybe the walls are alright. Also check over the ceiling for any signs of mildew or dampness to see if you need to do anything there. Worth investigating before shelling out for wall/ceiling insulation that may be redundant. --Brother Dan

Dan, you don't want double or triple pane windows in a sound isolated space; causes a SERIOUS loss of isolation due to multi-leaf effects. Windows, as walls and ceilings, need to have two leaves of mass separated by ONE air gap for best isolation in any given construction. If windows are used, it's better to use a single pane with a second SINGLE pane as far apart as possible, with the frames preferably isolated from each other to avoid flanking. You then ventilate the space between glasses into the wall insulation area. For a music space, it's advisable to keep the relative humidity between 40-42% for several reasons - less chance of condensation (caused by temperature difference AND high RH) - and pianos/guitars/other wooden instruments are MUCH happier at 40-42%. Mold, however, is NOT happy at that low RH; same with dust mites, etc, so another reason to dehumidify. I keep a dehumidifier in my space year 'round, and it's a running battle to keep the humidity that low (Central Oregon, USA) but I know it's helping; I empty the reservoir daily, and use the typical 1-1/2 to 2 gallons of water to water houseplants/animals, etc. Keep in mind that "Relative" is the key word here; that percentage is the percent of water in the air, RELATIVE to the MAX the air can hold at that temperature. If the temp gets colder, the air can't hold as much water so the relative humidity is higher. This means that, in a room with poor insulation, the walls will (in winter) likely be colder than the center of the room - so if you measure RH at the room's center, then measure at a wall (or window) the RH will be HIGHER at the wall or window. This is also a favorite spot for mold, so it's important to keep the RH LOWER than you might think so that at the wall, it's low enough not to propagate mold. Gotta go for now, hope this makes sense... Steve

Just to answer the condensation question: No, the walls were dry as a bone when the windows were dripping. I've been in this building for about 5 years (I used to be a part owner of the business that owned the building before I bought it). We never had a condensation problem. This time, the A/C and/heater had not been turned on for over a year so who knows what the RH was. len

Brother Dan, It took me until just now to realize who you were. Your username went right over my head! It's strange that I had to look at your profile to find out your actual job title after all these years! :-) As to "redundant" insulation, I my case (and most other people here) we aren't using insulation for it's thermal properties but rather for accoustic reasons. I think if you take a look at the saecollege site (I can get the exact link if you want but it's pointed to here several times), it's explained there. In my particular case it COULD be overkill although insulation is probably the cheapest of the big things I have to buy. I have a very solid building that's not letting out the sound right now before I even put a single wall up. My task with the walls is to try and isolate the rooms from each other. Now that I know you're watching here, I'll try and get some more pictures today. Not a whole lot to show at this point - just more framing. --Brother Len

Yipee!!!!! I just got a call back from one of the two building supply places in town and he can get me all the UNfaced R-11 I need for just under .20/sq ft! It's the OC pink stuff. The nice thing (according to this guy) is that the unfaced stuff is 24" wide and the faced stuff is only 23". That is done so there is a little compression to hold the insulation in the walls! Also, the difference between R-11 and R-13 is only 1/8" in thickness. len

Awesome!! :-) Great service from good ol' Booneyville Building Supplies! ;-)

I looked at the floor plans and pictures again and it looks like all the exterior windows are outside the double wall partitions that are being built. Therefore -- and I ask in complete ignorance -- doesn't this mean that whether these exterior windows are single or double paned is not a factor in sound isolation? I understand the point in relation to the window looking out from the control room. Len, this is looking great! Please tell me that the pictures showing you in the building represent actual work. You're really doing this, aren't you? - Brother Dan

laserpistol wrote:

I looked at the floor plans and pictures again and it looks like all the exterior windows are outside the double wall partitions that are being built. Therefore -- and I ask in complete ignorance -- doesn't this mean that whether these exterior windows are single or double paned is not a factor in sound isolation?

You've confused me (of course, you better than anyone know how easy that is to do) :-) The windows along the North wall (pretty much the entire front of the building) are only a factor when you consider sound leaking out of the studio and into the neighborhood. As to being inside/outside the double walls, if you look at the drawing, specifically the back of the control room (North end of it), there is only a single wall. The other wall is the building itself with the windows in it so the combination is my second leaf. What you don't see yet (because I haven't done it yet) is the metal roofing material that is going to cover those windows. Right now I have some old office partitions leaning up against windows to keep prying eyes out. They are going up mostly to discourage drunk teenagers from throwing rocks through the glass. I'm going to insulate behind that (I think) so that the metal doesn't act like a drum head. I'm also going to cover the glass door with a steel plate which will help with isolation and temptation. The basic empty building shell is already very well isolated sonically. There is at least a 50 dB TL (measured with an SPL meter) even when you are standing right in front of the door or window. The double walls inside the studio are to keep sound getting from one room to the next rather than keeping it in the building. My nearest neighbor is probably 50 yards away so I shouldn't have a problem.

laserpistol wrote:

Len, this is looking great! Please tell me that the pictures showing you in the building represent actual work. You're really doing this, aren't you?

Again, your question confuses me a little. The guy in the picture is NOT me - he's my electrician/carpenter friend from the prison. He's loaned me most of the tools and has been very helpful in construction so far. If your question was "are you just taking pictures of someone else's studio", no, it's really mine. I bought the building and it's really happening. Gene and I have both had things come up this week so we probably aren't going to have the inspection done until next week. I've got to take Vika to school but I'm going from there to studio to build some ceiling beams. Once we get that all up, we'll get the inspection and then we can really go to town finishing up. One of my first projects in the new studio will be new version (i.e., more than just a guitar) of "We are Christian Soldiers." :-) If I can remember all the words of course. On a private note (like the rest of this post wasn't) do you remember all the words to "Something got a hold of me?" I think I'm missing a verse or two. Love to all of yours!! - Brother len

len-morgan wrote:

The guy in the picture is NOT me - he's my electrician/carpenter friend from the prison.

Gee, I sure hope his time spent at "the prison" is as an employee and not part of its inmate population! :lol:

He still does WORK there. Writing software for prisons is my source of income (i.e., what gives me the cash to build a studio). We've got six prisons in town - 1 Federal, 1 State, 4 Private. It's the private ones that I make my money from. len

Cool -- I'm a software guy too... And a friend of ours is a social worker at a high security "special needs yard" (i.e., rapists, gang squealers, etc.) here in California... Scary stuff! :shock:

It's an entirely different world "inside." When I first started there, half of the stuff didn't make sense in the "real" world. As I've looked at other software used in prisons, it was obvious that it was written by a programmer who had very little experience with prisons and the quality of staff available. There are some users of my system that have trouble spelling G.E.D.! I have developed a pretty idiot-proof system but the problem is that they keep making better idiots! len

Just noticed that apparently you're having the rear wall of the CR up against the "window wall", correct? What's the gap between glass and inner CR wall? Laser, good call; with the exception of the rear CR wall area, the glass is so far from the second mass there should be no problem with isolation... Steve

The gap is about 14". Actually, I'm going to plug up the windows with some "solid" styrofoam (the blue stuff) tight against the glass with plywood holding it tight against the windows. The outside of the windows will also be covered with steel roof sheets (more for security than accoustics). I know there is going to be a small third leaf effect but the glass is laminated 7/8" thick so I'm thinking that it won't make too much of a difference (fingers crossed!) len

7/8" thick laminated glass? :shock: Boy, you could probably remove those windows and sell chunks of it to fellow studio builders! :lol:

Yeah, it's pretty thick (and heavy) stuff. That's what was put in after rocks went through them the first time. It probaby is worth a lot but I'm going to leave them in the windows. Sorry... len

Here's a few more pictures of the progress. Sorry it's been so long since the last ones - once you've seen one framed wall, you've seen 'em all. :-)

Are you kidding? We love framing photos! 8) There's something about framing pics that says, "this is actually happening." :twisted: Lookin' great! :mrgreen:

Ceiling joists without rim joists? What's keeping them from falling over?

Gravity, wishful thinking, and loooong nails. Seriously, The theory here (according to guy helping me to do the woodwork) is that the drywall will hold it all together and everything will help support everything else. Since the only purpose of these joists is to up the drywall on the ceiling. Just out of curiousity, what to you mean by "rim joist?" Would it be a piece that ran behind the ends of the joists with perhaps joist hangers on it, or blocks between the joists along the top plate? len