Len Morgan's Studio Build Diary

Well friends, the time has come to start this diary. I've purchased my building, did my designing, got my permits, done most of the demolition. I've got lumber and drywall delivered and I'm beginning construction. The building is 49' x 28' (inside dimenstions) cinder block (filled) outer shell, that then has a 2" foam "skin" then a brick facade outside of that. Even before any construction, the building is pretty sound tight. I cranked up Led Zepplin to 102 dB on my RS SPL meter went outside late at night and could only measure 52 dB right at the glass doors. Unfortunately, that's as low as I can measure on the RS meter. At the corner of the property, the music is barely audible. This is BEFORE I've done any construction inside! :-) My goals here were: 1) A really nice large control room 2) A good sized studio, big enough for a band to all get in 3) A vocal booth Once I laid out the design on the floor (using masking tape so I could get an idea of it's real size) it was apparent that my vocal booth was large enough to be a drum booth too so I've added a small vocal booth in the South West corner of the studio room (See penciled in area). My construction method will be 2 x 4" studs/plates 24" OC. The cieling will be joists made of 2 2 x 8" pieces sistered together. My longest span is about 15 feet so this should be enough strength (I'm only hanging the two 5/8" layers of dry wall from them. All walls where rooms abut each other will be separate stud walls insulated and covered with 2 layers of DW on the inside walls (i.e., open in the gap between walls). The walls will be spaced 3 1/2" apart (I'm going to lay a 2 x 4" down on the floor between the two walls for spacing - to be removed when the walls are nailed down) which should leave an effective air gap of 10 1/2" from the back (inside) of one wall to the next. A/C and Heating ducts will be separate flex hoses (10" and 12") from each room back to the HVAC unit with silencers both inside and outside the rooms (a la Paul Woodlock). I'm building all of the walls on the floor and then stacking them against the wall until I'm ready to put the rooms together (I need the floor space until then. So, what do think? Any obvious flaws here? My floor to ceiling measurement is 8' 5". I've got pictures attached of the building, the design, and the shape I got it in. All comments welcome! len PS: As I was adding pictures, I hit the 6 picture limit. Please see the next post for the "first" pictures.

Here's the pictures that should have been first... Len

len-morgan wrote:

Well friends, the time has come to start this diary. I've purchased my building, did my designing, got my permits, done most of the demolition. I've got lumber and drywall delivered and I'm beginning construction.

Congratulations on your building purchase, your design, your permits, your demolition, your construction start, and for starting your build diary here! I'm making popcorn -- this should be good!! 8)

. . . cinder block (filled) outer shell . . .

Filled with what? :roll:

. . . that then has a 2" foam "skin" then a brick facade outside of that.

Do you know if there's any air gap between the facade and the cinder blocks?

At the corner of the property, the music is barely audible. This is BEFORE I've done any construction inside! :-)

Sounds like you've got a great shell to work with -- and look at that -- no party walls! 8) You're making lots of people jealous already!

My construction method will be 2 x 4" studs/plates 24" OC. The cieling will be joists made of 2 2 x 8" pieces sistered together. My longest span is about 15 feet so this should be enough strength (I'm only hanging the two 5/8" layers of dry wall from them.

Do you know this for a fact? Have you used this span calculator to do your calculations?

The walls will be spaced 3 1/2" apart (I'm going to lay a 2 x 4" down on the floor between the two walls for spacing - to be removed when the walls are nailed down) which should leave an effective air gap of 10 1/2" from the back (inside) of one wall to the next.

That's a nice sized air gap. I'm told that 12" is even better. Past that, I'm told there's a diminishing return on the space investment -- 12" is kind of the "best bang for your buck" gap."

A/C and Heating ducts will be separate flex hoses (10" and 12") from each room back to the HVAC unit with silencers both inside and outside the rooms (a la Paul Woodlock).

And a la Sharward! ;-) What about ventilation? Does that HVAC unit do any "V" or is it just "H" and "AC"? (For those who aren't familiar with what HVAC stands for, it's Heating, Ventilation, and Air Conditioning.) Since your rooms won't have windows in them to the outside, there's probably a code requirement to ventilate mechanically. You'll also want to become very well-versed in vapor barriers. The topic is confusing. I'm no expert. In fact, I'm a complete idiot. (I'm not actually, but that's my way of hopefully dodging the questions that I'm in no way qualified to answer! ;-) ) This project is going to be a lot of fun for us to watch come together! Thanks for sharing it with us. --Keith :mrgreen:

My construction method will be 2 x 4" studs/plates 24" OC. The cieling will be joists made of 2 2 x 8" pieces sistered together. My longest span is about 15 feet so this should be enough strength (I'm only hanging the two 5/8" layers of dry wall from them.

Do you know this for a fact? Have you used this span calculator to do your calculations?

For a fact? Who can really know? :-) I have had a structural engineer look at the building and my design (and construction method) and he has no problem with it. He says it's actually a little over-built.

A/C and Heating ducts will be separate flex hoses (10" and 12") from each room back to the HVAC unit with silencers both inside and outside the rooms (a la Paul Woodlock).

And a la Sharward! Wink

I believe you mentioned that in your thread so "a la Sharward" is implied by cross reference. :-)

What about ventilation? Does that HVAC unit do any "V" or is it just "H" and "AC"? (For those who aren't familiar with what HVAC stands for, it's Heating, Ventilation, and Air Conditioning.) Since your rooms won't have windows in them to the outside, there's probably a code requirement to ventilate mechanically.

I've got my "Vs" covered as well as the H,A and C. The third picture in the first post shows the CURRENT system. That is being replaced with a brand new unit which WILL be ventalated with fresh air. That is not common here in West Texas but I'm replacing the electric heating unit with a gas one and a ventalation system comes with that. The vapor barrier is a bigger concern. Yesterday we had a nasty cold front blow into town (96 degrees Wednesday, 45 degrees on Thursday). When I went down to the studio, the windows and glass door were dripping with water! The insulation is so tight on the shell that water condenses pretty easily. Bear in mind though that the A/C and/or heater has not been turned on in almost 3 years so there is nothing to dehumidify the air. When the building was occupied (and therefore heated and cooled), we never had a problem with condensation. I really would like someone to chime in here though about vapor barriers. Should I use them and if so, where should they be? Behind the dry wall? On the "open" side of the walls? It should also be noted that the space between the roof and my new ceilings (about 3 ft) WILL be ventalated/heated/cooled by the same HVAC system so the space between the walls and the ceiling "attic" area will be the same temperature more or less as the rooms themselves. len

len-morgan wrote:

The vapor barrier is a bigger concern. Yesterday we had a nasty cold front blow into town (96 degrees Wednesday, 45 degrees on Thursday). When I went down to the studio, the windows and glass door were dripping with water! The insulation is so tight on the shell that water condenses pretty easily. Bear in mind though that the A/C and/or heater has not been turned on in almost 3 years so there is nothing to dehumidify the air. When the building was occupied (and therefore heated and cooled), we never had a problem with condensation. I really would like someone to chime in here though about vapor barriers. Should I use them and if so, where should they be? Behind the dry wall? On the "open" side of the walls?

You can start here. Good stuf. --Keith :mrgreen:

Here's a few more pictures. There's not much to show. As you can see, I'm building the framing on the floor first and then just stacking them up against the walls until I'm ready to anchor them to the floor. Len

It might be a little premature but I've got a few questions as I'm going through this build: 1) Would I be better off getting insulation that is intended for 6" studs and compressinging it into my 4" studs (increased density) or just getting the 4" stuff? 2) In most of John's control room designs (and mine is based on many I've seen here) the front walls of the control room are angled back but not at a 45 degree angle that I'd want my monitors to be angled at. On the other hand, a lot of the rooms that have been done start out as square/rectangular rooms and then corner treatments are added so the finished LOOK has the angled walls. So here's my question: If I build the walls angled, will I still need to add the absorbtion in the corners at the front, or does building solid walls at an angle take away that requirement? 3) After putting chalk lines and laying down 2 x 4's on the floor where the walls will go, I've had a little change of heart about the two posts that are going to be in the control room. They could be just inside the wall and "dressed up" to look nice (but not touching the CR structure at all) or I could give up about a foot of width and have them just outside the CR wall. For looks, the latter is better but I'm a little concerned about loosing that foot of width. Will this make a big difference? Can I treat any bad effects of a narrower room with all the wall space I have along the length? Thanks for any thoughts on this! More pictures when I start setting the walls up in their final positions. len

len-morgan wrote:

Would I be better off getting insulation that is intended for 6" studs and compressinging it into my 4" studs (increased density) or just getting the 4" stuff?

How far from the outer wall surface will you be placing your frames? Ideally you'll want the entire area between leaves filled with insulation. Remember, the wider the air gap, the better your isolation. Mine's going to be 11 1/2" in some areas and 7 1/2" in other areas. If you're using 3 1/2" frames and you place them 8" away from the outer walls, you'll have an 11 1/2" air gap (measuring from surface of outer wall to the back side of the drywall of your inner wall). --Keith :mrgreen:

The interior walls are going to be 3 1/2" from the East/West walls and 6" from the North/South walls. That's going to give me 7" + DW (1 1/4") or 9 1/2" + DW. However, as I understand it (and that is no garantee at all!), the width of the air gap is to prevent sound from getting out of the building (or vise versa) and that is already NOT a problem. The outer walls are 8" filled cinder block,4" foam insulation, then red brick outside of that so it's already pretty tight. len

len-morgan wrote:

. . . the width of the air gap is to prevent sound from getting out of the building (or vise versa) and that is already NOT a problem. . .

Oh yeah -- I forgot about that. :oops: Many of us envy your position! 8-) If you can afford to fill the entire gap completely with insulation, lightly compressed, that would be best.

I've thought about that but I'm not quite sure how I'd get the insulation to "stand up" in the cavity. The studs will hold it up inside but in the gap between the studs and the wall, it would have to either stand it's own or I'd have to hang it from the roof trusses. Also, I've just found out that my HVAC replacement is going to cost me between 7 and $8K installed so unless there is a GREAT benefit to the extra insulation (factoring in the existing soundproofing of the shell itself) I'd probably pass. Unfortunately, it's not like I can wait to decide until near the end of the project to see how the money's holding out. :-( Besides, I would think it would be beneficial to have the gap there because it would allow me ventalate between the double walls to avoid condensation problems. Maybe I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time...today... :-) len

In that case, then I would think you'd be OK stapling a string or wire or something to the back of the studs (ideally before tilting them into place) in a zig-zag pattern -- something that will prevent the insulation from falling backwards into the space between the walls. As long as it's kept pressed firmly against the inner drywall, you should be fine. At least then your inner walls won't ring much.

That was my plan all along. My question was how to hold up the stuff between the cement block wall and the back of the stud wall. I would LOVE to be able to put all the insulation in before I stand up the walls but the building inspector wants to see all the framing up (with electrical boxes in). Come to think of it, he never actually said that insulation couldn't be in between the studs at inspection time. I guess I'll call down there tomorrow and see what they say. Even with insulation in the walls, he can inspect all of the framing. Speaking of insulation, is it usually recommended NOT to use the paper faced pink stuff in the walls? It certainly makes it much easier to keep it inside the walls but I don't know what accoustic effect the paper might have. Buzzing at the edges maybe? What if the edges of the paper were glued all around? Just a thought. Len

len-morgan wrote:

My question was how to hold up the stuff between the cement block wall and the back of the stud wall.

I'm not following your question, Len. Or maybe you misunderstood my suggestion, because my suggestion does not include putting any "stuff" between the cement block wall and the studs themselves. By attaching wire or string in a zig-zag pattern on the back side of the studs, you're essentially making a "wire net" for the insulation to be pressed against, thereby keeping it from falling all the way through to the block wall. Then the area between the block wall and the framing would be "nothing but air." Get it?

Come to think of it, he never actually said that insulation couldn't be in between the studs at inspection time. I guess I'll call down there tomorrow and see what they say.

Expect them to say don't install the insulation until after the framing and electrical inspection is complete. (I think that's a "combined inspection.")

Speaking of insulation, is it usually recommended NOT to use the paper faced pink stuff in the walls? It certainly makes it much easier to keep it inside the walls but I don't know what accoustic effect the paper might have.

Steve has said here on numerous occasions that the kraft paper backing can act as a third leaf, so it's best not to use it -- or, if you must use it, try to make sure it's pressed firmly against a leaf... If that's allowed... And it may not be because the placement of a vapor barrier is critical. I'll let him speak -- er, uh, type -- for himself though, once he comes up for air. --Keith :mrgreen:

I thought I remembered a remark about the kraft paper. Ok, plain insulation. As to the amount to use, I did misunderstand what you were saying. When you said:

If you can afford to fill the entire gap completely with insulation, lightly compressed, that would be best.

that's where I got confused. I guess you were refering to the gap between the studs whereas I was reading the gap between the back of the stud wall and the cement block wall.

Right. Initially I said fill the whole enchilada with insulation... But since your iso is already so good and the fact that iso between inside building and outside building isn't a critical concern, then I switched gears on you and suggested you only fill the area of the inner wall frames, using the wire to keep it from slipping away. I think we're on the same page now. :-)

mmmmmmmm .... insulation-filled enchilada ..... :)

sharward wrote:

...I think we're on the same page now. :-)

Actually, we've moved on to page two. :-) But at least we're both on page two. len

The city inspector said I could put up the insulation between the studs before the framing inspection. I could have even drywalled one side as long as he can see behind the wall and see the electrical wiring behind the walls. Since I'm only covering one side, that's not an issue. Now I'm in serious need of advice though about the vapor barrier. Once I've got the walls anchored to the floor, I'm not going to be able to put it on the back side. Which side should it go on (if at all). The walls will be spaced 3 1/2" from the cinder block wall and will have an open back with the insulation between the studs. Since I've already been advised against using the paper faced type because of possible third leaf problems, I'm just going to be using string across the back of the walls to hold up the insulation. The area between the walls and above the ceiling will have "access" to the HVAC air but I don't know how often the air will be changed in some of the nooks and crannies (for example between the walls of the control room and studio room). Will this avoid the problem of a vapor barrier? If I put the vapor barrier on the BACK of the wall (i.e., facing the cinder block) won't that give me a third leaf effect? I'm getting close on having to make a decision about this so any advice would be appreciated. Thanks! len

Well, we just keep moving along. The framing is about 3/4 done (1/2 if you count the ceiling joists). I've still got one wall of my drum room and then the control room to frame up. Possibly today we'll be done with that. In the pictures you can see a beam (2 x 2 x 8 x 20) we are putting up to hold the ceiling joists from the center to the west wall of the main studio room. We had to move one of the big brown posts (the ones that hold up the roof). It seems that the drawing I made of the empty space wasn't very accurate when it came to placement of the poles and when you opened the door to the main room, there was this big pole right in front of the door! I would have had no problem getting around it and into the room but I have several friends of moderate tonage that might have needed mechanical help to get in. :-) So, we built a new post that goes just outside the door, installed it, built two temporary 2 x 2 x 6 posts to hold the roof up while we cut the old post out and then moved it down. It actually worked rather well. It's a good thing one of us knew what he was doing (i.e., not me). :-) Today we'll be putting up a beam on the other side of the posts to hold the joists for the center to East wall ceiling. So far we have been able to avoid connecting to any part of the structure except the floor. After that, we'll start framing up the control room and finish the last wall of the drum room. Ok, here's some pictures...

And a couple more pictures...

I hate you! :lol:

What ever for? len

Too much progress -- I'm jealous!

I'd like to take credit for it but you have to remember I have a friend helping me who is not only a master electrician but a carpenter too. And he has loaned me all the power tools he has - I feel like Norm Abrams from the New Yankee Workshop (without the talent of course). I got the last wall of the drum room built today (by myself!) so I'm down to just the control room. Once we get the electrical boxes in, I should be ready for my first inspection some time this coming week. After that, it's insulation, dry wall and doors. Then the real work of "tuning" the rooms starts! I'm still trying to find unfaced insulation for the walls. Nobody seems to carry it (or wants to order it for me) anymore. Every thing is faced or they are pushing hard on styrofoam "sound board" (foil faced). When I tell them that closed cell foams are great for temperature but worthless as sound insulators, they just give me this look like I'M the the one that's stupid. Oh well... len