Little help on Closet Vocal Booth

Just to let you all know that I am new here, and I only posted because I am going out of my mind. I've been researching this topic for about 2 weeks now and getting minimal progress. I've looked at a lot of posts here and this site has helped a lot, but still have a few questions. I am transferring a walkin closet, 5 and a half feet by about 4 feet, into a vocal booth. I want it soundproof for privacy and to be able to play guitar or whatnot when others are sleeping. It's only a second story, and insulation at the moment is at a minimum. It has carpet inside but that's about it. What I was considering doing was build a room inside of a room. Floating floor, new walls, two doors, etc. But I think the closet is just too small for that. So Instead I am thinking about tearing down the existing drywalls. Add insulation between the studs. Create a staggered stud system. Put fiberglass between the studs. Put a Resilient Channel in there, and some more drywall up. Maybe two layers. And the room will be a little smaller. Get a good door with a seal, but would this be a good way to go or what are your guys comments? I'm just not sure where to start! I truly want to have a STC rating of around 50+. When blaring a guitar in there, or singing at the top of my lungs, I don't want anyone to be able to hear me in the next room. Tell me it's possible! Oh yea, and possibly costs. I'm looking for around $400 - $500 willing to spend. Thanks!

Thatoneguy wrote:

Just to let you all know that I am new here, and I only posted because I am going out of my mind.

Welcome to the party! If you're "going out of your mind," you'll fit right in around here. ;)

. . . I am thinking about tearing down the existing drywalls. Add insulation between the studs. Create a staggered stud system. Put fiberglass between the studs. Put a Resilient Channel in there, and some more drywall up. Maybe two layers. . . .

Ah, someone's been doing some reading! :D Double wall is superior to staggered stud, but it does consume footage. Staggered stud is a decent alternative where space is somewhat tight. However, given your closet conversion situation, I'm thinking RC will be your ticket. I don't believe there's any benefit to doing staggered stud and RC at the same time. Each offers decoupling, so you don't need to decouple twice. In fact, there may be some reasons that "double decoupling" might make things worse and not better than one or the other. All of this is assuming you're talking about walls. There's still the matter of the ceiling... Or is that where you planned to use RC?

. . . I'm just not sure where to start! I truly want to have a STC rating of around 50+. When blaring a guitar in there, or singing at the top of my lungs, I don't want anyone to be able to hear me in the next room. Tell me it's possible! Oh yea, and possibly costs. I'm looking for around $400 - $500 willing to spend. . .

You're off to a pretty good start already, actually. However, there's more that the experts here (of which I only to pretend to be one, and not all that convincingly, I might add) will need from you. Details, details, details about the existing construction. You mentioned that this closet is on the second floor, but there's no mention yet of what is below and adjacent to this booth-to-be. It's also critical to understand the construction details -- floor joist size and spacing, attic rafter/truss size and spacing, all of that. Drawings and photos help a lot, too, as no doubt you've seen on other posts here. Bear in mind that STC is a measure that applies to the vocal range, and doesn't represent the full spectrum of music. You mentioned that you'll be playing guitar in there and singing at the top of your lungs... What kind of guitar (acoustic or electric)? That's an important distinction. Think about these things, do some more research, and then post back with as much detail as you can on these items. Then the brains around here can start gnawing on your info and get you going in the right direction! :) Good luck...

You mentioned Decoupling. Not sure what that means. Info me! :) Honestly, I didn't really plan on doing the ceiling because it leads right to the attic and I thought the walls were probably my shortest link, so therefore would be need to be done. Limited budget and only need soundproofing for privacy for myself mostly. And hopefully so I don't pick up any toilets flushing when I'm recording ;) I have no idea of the construction details. To follow up on my situation. College student here living at home, using the upstairs turned into my home-recording setup. I'll try to make a crude graphic of what my house (the relevent areas) look like. Playing guitar yes. (Although the lower frequency's of the guitar, like the bass really, don't need to be soundproof) I don't mind if a little guitar leaks out, especially the bass because that's harder to get rid of. But I'm more concerned with the mids, and higher freq's. Electric guitar, and acoustic. So I'm not concerned with guitar, just vocals. Let me try to whip up some graphics for you guys, or even some quick pics with my camera phone.

I've got pic's of the closet and surrounding areas up. http://www.themoneguys.com/pictures

Here's the thing about STC, "Guess-TC", etc - unless you've been doing this forever, or get incredibly lucky, no matter how much you try there's a good chance that SOMETHING unforseen will bite you in the ass. All you can really do is be as anal as possible, and "measure 3 times, cut once", etc. "decoupling" is the act/method of separating one surface from the other on opposing sides of a sound wall, so that the sound which excites vibrations in that side has a hard time sneaking into the other side's surfaces, and so is attenuated in level as much as possible. Ways of doing this are several, some more effective than others. Staggered stud construction and RC on standard stud frames are nearly identical in results - if constructed PERFECTLY (no little holes, no fasteners in wrong places, good caulking, etc) a 2x4 frame with 1/2" single layer gypsum on one side, RC, two 5/8 gypsum other side, which would have an effective air gap of 4", predicts at STC 53 - Changing framing to 2x6 plates, staggered 2x4 studs widens the air gap to 5.5", and predicts at STC 52, with a bit lower m-a-m resonance due to the wider gap. (Generally, lower resonance is a GOOD thing) In actual practice, you will be LESS likely to blunder when building a staggered stud wall so it's most likely a tossup. It's also easier to find 2x4's at your local Home Depot or Lowes than it will be to chase down someone who carries the RIGHT type of RC, so that's ANOTHER vote for the staggered studs. In fact, about the only reason NOT to use that method (in YOUR case, please don't everyone I've recommended using RC get excited here) would be if you absolutely can't STAND the idea of giving up 1-1/2" of floor space on each wall. Also, if your plumbing isn't ALSO "decoupled", as in rubber/plastic hangers, no firm contact with framing) then RC might help "hush the flush", and no I'm NOT apologising for that one; I'm actually kinda PROUD of it :lol: Ceiling - flanking noise. If you have fairly thick insulation in the attic, and it's actually still THERE, it will damp the ceiling somewhat; but be aware that anything getting into the attic will still come through the ceilings in EITHER direction, and not all that quieter than it was in the OTHER room. If the walls don't extend clear to the outer roof (and almost NO homes do this) then you have a flanking path. This will make your STC 52 walls seem like a waste of time unless you consider ALL paths in/out of your closet, including the floor and door. Door - check out these http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1662 http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3293 Basically, a general plan would be to remove the wallboard inside the closet, probably INCLUDING the ceiling wallboard - on the ceiling, you would benefit by use of Resilient Channel (in case RC isn't yet part of your vocabulary :=) - if this is done, it needs to be on the studs and NOT between layers of drywall. If you're going to use RC on the ceiling, then you may want to just do that on all the walls too; this could reduce plumbing noise a bit in the closet. IF there's carpet, remove it; add a floor layer of something like 3/4" OSB or MDF, then wood or vinyl floor covering. This will help keep the booth from getting entirely dead after you use absorption inside to help the sound. Screw 2x2's onto the floor and ceiling (you may have to add blocking between the ceiling joists to do this) so your sole plate and cap are effectively 2x6 instead of 2x4. Add studs between each pair of existing studs, but make them flush with the INNER EDGE of your new 2x2, and center them as much as possible on 24" centers. Install the RC - for MUCH more on this, check out the Complete Section link, gotten to by following the very top announcement in the Construction forum. Do a search on "masking tape", it should bring up a method of keeping track of all first-layer screws - Install the RC on ceiling, and all walls. Then, each layer of wallboard will need to be mudded and taped - the long edge of wallboard has a taper, so there will be room for a layer of mud (joint compound) and tape, without making a bulge. If you don't FILL this "ditch" with mud before adding the second layer of drywall, it creates a "void" which will cause a resonance in the wall and weaken the TL at that frequency. It will also lessen the MASS in that area of the wall, which also hurts TL. Put up a layer on the ceiling, then one on the walls, then ceiling, then walls; interlock the edges so each layer comes within 1/8 to 1/4" of the intersecting one, and caulk as you go; if you can't find acoustic caulk, for a small project like this you can use GE Silicon II, which can usually be found for exhorbitant prices at HD or Lowes. For wall layers, sit each piece on 1/4" spacers while fastening; then, pull the spacers (like small scraps of 1/4" plywood) and caulk. For the ceiling, you'll have to tape the spacers to the studs for the first ceiling layer, then tape them to the first WALL layer for the SECOND ceiling layer. Remember, pull spacers and caulk right after fastening each layer. Standard spacing for drywall screws is typically 12" - use HALF this many for the first layer, then the FULL amount for the top layer. Gotta run for now, check out that "don't even" link, read lots, then ask about whatever's not clear yet... Steve

I just thought of I'll need a way to run wires in and out of the booth. A good idea that I thought of that I think might be the best way, but the hardest way, would be to create a panel on each side of the wall. So I can plug in an XLR cable and a TRS cable into the wall, go into the booth, and plug the mic into the inside wall.with the corresponding XLR plug, and plug the headphones into the TRS jack. This would mean, when tearing down the existing drywall on the inside, create a hole on the outside wall, putting in a panel, and putting in a plug, wiring it a panel and plug on the opposite hole in the wall. Problem here is I have no idea how to wire a balanced plug! Although there is a lot of info I've been digging up on this subject. How hard is it for a non-electrician, standard guy to wire this in? Is this really the only option I have? What about instead of wiring two plugs together, make a panel, and slip an already made cable into the two cables. A Female to Female XLR cable, and Female to Female TRS cable into each panel. Not sure how well it would stay. . . I would prefer wiring it myself *IF* it's not too difficult, so I know it's done right and can repair it if need be. Just have totally NO idea how to wire a cable or two panels together. What about sound control? How much sound loss am I talking here? Should I just caulk all around the (inside of the wall) of the panel? To sum-up. 1) How hard is it to wire two panels together of BALANCED TRS and XLR plugs? 2) What other options do I have? 3) Would it be simplier to create a panel, then just glue in a premade female to female cable in a hole? 4) How much sound loss am I looking at for a panel on inside and outside of the wall, and how to prevent it?

Hey, I'm not an expert, but I do have some experience with these last few questions - 1) How hard is it to wire two panels together of BALANCED TRS and XLR plugs? Not too hard, just good use of a soldering gun and knowing what to solder for the tips. You can find the info on the internet, just do some searches for making cables. If you can't find anything, post back and I can find some for you. 2) What other options do I have? http://www.markertek.com/p/fullpage.php?page=079 Definitely contact markertek, take a look at that page. They have a ton of wall plate options, and you can customize one and have them build it, solder it up for you. You could get an XLR and a TRS on one, and it'd be pretty cheap (if you don't want to learn about how to make it, it'd be easier just to buy it. they also sell blank plates). 3) Would it be simplier to create a panel, then just glue in a premade female to female cable in a hole? I think that might be simpler, but remember this - for 1/4", you need female to female, but for XLR, you need female to male (assuming you are using it for a microphone to plug into a preamp). you're essentially plugging a microphone cable into a microphone cable - daisy-chaining them together - which isn't a problem for a short distance, plus it's all balanced anyways. In your post you mentioned female to female XLR, and that probably wouldn't work for what you're trying to do. (unless I'm wrong about your intent) 4) How much sound loss am I looking at for a panel on inside and outside of the wall, and how to prevent it? That i'm not sure of - hopefully someone else can chime in on this. Good luck, I am starting to build a vocal booth as well over the next week and a half! - John

For wall panels, all the above plus OFFSET the panels - at least one stud cavity offset, with insulation fill, will cut down the losses in isolation considerably. Wiring - http://www.rane.com/note110.html http://www.tweakheadz.com/all_about_cables.htm HTH... Steve

I'm cleaning out the closet all today, so I just want some clarification on a few things while I'm getting started. By the way this forum has been EXTREMELY helpful. So, empty closet. Tear down all the walls down to the studs, including the ceiling. (I've never done this before, having someone help, although I'd still like to know so I don't frick anything up :) Remove carpet. Lay down RC on all four walls, ceiling and floor. Throw down some MDF on the floor, then cover with wood/vinyl. This is the fuzzy part.

Screw 2x2's onto the floor and ceiling (you may have to add blocking between the ceiling joists to do this) so your sole plate and cap are effectively 2x6 instead of 2x4. Add studs between each pair of existing studs, but make them flush with the INNER EDGE of your new 2x2, and center them as much as possible on 24" centers.

Screw the 2x2's where exactly? OVER the mdf and vinyl? Are you sure to use screws? Wouldn't that cause resonates. And don't mind a noob here, but need to ask these questions. Sole plate? Cap? Not sure what you mean flush with the inner edge of the new 2x2 since I'm not sure where the 2x2's would go. I think I could benefit from a picture of how this is suppose to look before, during and after. (I'll post pictures as I'm doing this as well, for future closet-modifications)

Put up a layer on the ceiling, then one on the walls, then ceiling, then walls; interlock the edges so each layer comes within 1/8 to 1/4" of the intersecting one, and caulk as you go

Layer of gypsum, right? 1/8 to 1/4" of the intersecting one. A crude pic would clear that up. You also said something earlier about "fasteners in the wrong places" what would be a wrong place for a fastener, and what would be the correct place. Also if you have any info on basic wall construction so I can get this terms down a little better, that'd help greatly as well.

Thatoneguy wrote:

Layer of gypsum, right? 1/8 to 1/4" of the intersecting one. A crude pic would clear that up.

My illustration may help you understand this concept. Bear in mind that I'm going to be using three layers, but you can get the idea... There are other illustrations on the forum (where, I'm not certain) that show the interleaving panels in more detail.

Sorry I got ahead of you, there are a LOT of terms in this biz and only some of them make any sense - here's a good start on understanding some terms along with pix; - http://www.homestore.com/homegarden/hom ... =homestore First click on this http://www.homestore.com/HomeGarden/Hom ... gWalls.asp (that's the one titled "Framing Walls" - check the picture just below where it says,"Project Basics" - note where it shows Top plate and Bottom Plate? These will need to be extended after you remove the drywall from your studs, this is where the 2x2's get placed because it's easier than trying to remove those plates from under and on top of your existing studs - I've done a basic sketch to show what will be changed to incorporate staggered stud framing in an existing place - if you're totally new at this, expect it to take several posts/sketches/explanations; it's all part of the learning curve. A really good investment here would be to stop at Home Depot's book shelf and buy one of their books on home remodeling; Home Improvement 1-2-3 would be a good choice, these series have good pix and explanations. The $20 will be very well spent, believe me. Here's the drawing; I know there will be more questions, bring 'em on... Steve

Sorry, forgot to post one -

What type of actual square inches am I looking at losing if I use a leaf air leaf method. The last option, with the STC of 63 is obviously the best. But what are the measurements for a basic wall (the first option with an STC of 33) and the final wall with the 63 STC. I'm going to measure out the closet and decide or not if I can afford to lose that much room.

Considering your ceiling (and likely floor) limitations, giving up the floor space for ANY double framed wall build would be a waste of space, since the final result will be controlled by the weakest link - so, from a practical standpoint, using either Resilient Channel on the inside of all existing framing and putting two layers of drywall on that, or building out as I drew and putting two layers of drywall up, would be the two best options for you. What's not shown on that example are double layers on single studs, or anything with resilient mounts - if there are 2x4 studs in place and a layer of 1/2" drywall on the outside of the closet and you just add two layers of 5/8 drywall on the inside, the walls would be roughly STC 45; that's already as good or better than your ceiling is likely to be, even with double drywall on RC, although it's probably borderline. If you used staggered studs your air gap would increase from 3.5" to 5.5", and with double 5/8 on the inside that would calculate to about STC 51: go back to the 2x4 studs, but hang those 2 layers of 5/8 on RC, the STC would be about 52. Unless you have a way to make the outside drywall on that closet one continuous envelope that wraps around floor, walls and ceiling unbroken, and double that mass, any of the above-mentioned wall constructions will equal or exceed your ceiling and/or floor, so more would be wasted... Steve BTW, those walls in the drawing you posted have the inner edges of the two frames spaced at approx. 1", which would make the total wall thickness about 10 to 10.5", as opposed to a standard stud wall with 1/2" drywall at total thickness of 4.5". - so both sides considered, you would lose about a foot in each direction (and still need to do 'way more to your ceiling and floor)

is there anything more I can do with the ceiling and floor? Floor you mentioned taking the carpet out, throwing down a layer of MDF or OSB and then some vinyl. How about RC? Anything else for the floor? The ceiling you said to tear the wallboard down, put up RC and two layers of wallboard back up. Anything else I can do with that?

This would all depend on the rest of the construction around the closet; what is below the closet, above it, etc - the goal in good isolation is to have two concentric envelopes of mass separated by air or insulation, this applies whether walls, floor, ceiling, door, window... Anywhere this can't be done will be a weak spot. One way to make up for this somewhat is to make a single leaf mass barrier MORE massive, relying on shear mass law for isolation instead of mass-air-mass, which is more efficient in terms of space but not always easy to implement. In addition, going much beyond what's already been described may exceed your budget - Is there other living space below your booth area as well? If so, what? I'm not sure just how much more I can suggest without knowing more about your construction, and I'm not sure you're far enough along to help with that part yet; for example, isolation to the underside - sure more mass in the upper leaf will help, but beyond that you would need to remove the under side covering of your floor joists, and put two layers of decoupled wallboard there after making sure the cavities are insulation-filled. Same with the outer leaves of your walls; a second layer of 5/8 wallboard, properly sealed, will help a few dB. Not sure how far you want to take this; but in any case, I'd appreciate you editing your profile to include a location for better, more localized recommendations... Steve

Welp, I cleared out the whole closet and have it completly ready for tearing down the walls. I am still unclear on a few things. 1) When putting up a new wall, what type of wallboard is the best to use? Right now I have probably 1/2" sheetrock. Which as far as I'm told, is not used in homes anymore. So probably hard to find. But it's thick, and it's ROCK. It's not the common drywall that you can nail into pretty easily, it's solid rock. So I'm assuming if I can find this stuff, it'd be the best to use? Unless common drywall is better? 2) I install the RC after the insulation, and the drywall to the RC. Screws THROUGH the drywall, straight into the RC? Do I screw into the studs? Do I use screws at all? Don't want to create a short and end up creating a path for sound to transfer through. 3) I'm only doing two panels of drywall. The second layer of drywall gets screwed/glued/mudded to the first layer, or through the first layer into the RC, or all the way into the studs? Expect more questions! :lol:

Here is my updated web page, it shows the teardown process. I've removed all the wallboards, and have a few questions. A) My ceiling (on the left side) is on a slight slant, And the ceiling itself goes straight up to the attic, I could (if I wanted to) pop my head right into the attic. I am considering constructing a flat ceiling at the lowest point of the slant. This would make my ceiling overall about a foot down, but I don't think it would be a problem. B) My floors, I haven't ripped up the carpet yet, but on the left wall (see pics) against the wall, between the floor and the outside wall, is a gap where the studs go, except this gap extends all the way to the bottom floor. There is no sole plate. How would I extend a non-existant sole-plate to make a staggered stud frame? C) The door, I am about to purchase, I heard from Knightfly that I could create a hollow door and add drywall to each side of the door. Would I have to add drywall to all the ENDS of the door? Each side, and all four ends? I know drywall would be very difficult to attach to a HOLLOW door, and would I glue, mud, or nail the drywall in place? Is this method actually feasable? Will it actually work? can anyone draw me up some basic plans on how to, the door? Thanks http://www.themoneguys.com/pictures/index.html

Knightfly, which wallboard should I purchase? What is the best. . .

Don't screw all the way into the studs. That defeats the point of the RC. Either use screws that are short enough so they won't hit the studs in any location or else make sure you don't screw the drwall to the RC on top of a stud. I don't get the terminology. IME, sheetrock and drywall are the same thing. Comes in 1/2" and 5/8" thicknesses, eithere 4x8 or 4x12 sheets. Nice, heavy stuff.

What you're describing sounds like cement board, Duroc is one common brand; is the room next to your closet a bathroom, by any chance? If not, this is kind of wierd; normally, gypsum wallboard is used everywhere except by tub or shower surrounds, where often it's replaced by Duroc, otherwise known as cement board. That is as hard as you describe, it's basically concrete with fiberglass strands running inside, and a fiberglass mesh cover. Typical names worldwide for gypsum are sheet rock, plasterboard, wallboard, gypsum wallboard, gyp-rock, "rock", etc - but these are NOT as hard as you describe... Steve Also, it's best to remove all you're going to remove BEFORE you shop for materials; that way, you know exactly what was there and can take a "sample" along with you when shopping.

Oh yea, it's hard all right. And heavy. Heavy! This house was built in 1938. All the walls in the house, are this cement type wall. If you try to nail a nail into the wall, it's real hard, you'll get about a half inch way into the wall then BAM you are all the way through the wall. It cracks when you try putting nails into the walls as well. Not too bad, but typically. So that's what I thought you meant when you said "sheet-rock". I have heard that they don't use this stuff in houses anymore, although the walls are fairly well for blocking sound, the close was *decent* before, the door was useless, but the walls were ok. But anyways, one day we'll tear down all the walls and re-do the walls in the house, but right now we're just doing the closet for myself. I took a close-up look, and it's definatly cement or some type of rock. It also has hairs or fiberglass strands in it. Some spots are almost an inch thick! I should have just left this stuff up! lol. There was no insulation behind the rock though, so I'm insulating, throwing up RC, and some wallboard. So you are saying any drywall put up the RIGHT way will do as well as any other drywall?

Yeah, standard 5/8" drywall, two layers will do it; are you planning on staggered studs, or using resilient mounts for the wallboard? Steve

I've decided not doing staggered studs after re-reading the post's. Thanks for the help. I'm using RC. How much will I need? I'm not sure where I should start, I read a post that said he started 3" off the ground then put RC every two feet going up. Is that about right? Just need some clarification on how much RC to actually use. How much does this stuff run as well? I need some more clarification on how to get the best out of the floor. I have hard wood floors in the closet and am willing to rip that up to get to the joists. Should I tear up the joists and place them on neoprene pucks? And insulate it? Need some help with that. Or just not even tear up the floor at all. And about the door, should I layer a hollow door with a layer of OSB. Will this actually be better than a solid door at higher freq? Also, do I do the ENDs of the door. The top bottom and two sides. The sides you can only see when you open the door. Do I add OSB on those sides as well?

I've finally gotten just enough time to check out your pix at the link you posted; there are several problems to fix here, including the apparent holes in the outer wall layer; I'm short on time still, so will have to get back to you for a much longer post; Please post ANY answer you like, so I don't see my name as the last and think I've answered you; I'll hopefully be able to get into this in a couple of days, sorry... Steve Meantime; RC - goes within 3" of each side of the horizontal (second) layer, then at LEAST every two feet between, ; so your RC would be horizontal on the walls, one at 3" above floor, another at 45" above floor, and one halfway in between; same for upper half - 3" from edge, one in the middle. Ditto on ceiling; for your coffered ceiling, I would run the RC near the "dogleg" on either side, and treat each side of the dogleg as a separate plane surface; but make the second layer overlap the first at that seam, for better isolation - keep one panel slightly short on the first course, then go long on the second course, so you have full seam sealing - follow all other drywall recommendations in the REFERENCE section, IIRC they're in the Complete Section thread mainly. Get some blue masking tape and MARK the locations of EVERY RC and EVERY SCREW before you do each surface. Gaps in the frame - these will need to be sealed. Also, those breaks in the outer wall sheathing - fill those with drywall mud, strike them off flat (12" taping knife will work for this), and put up at least one layer of wallboard BETWEEN the studs and AGAINST those outer boards, fastening along the EDGES ONLY using construction adhesive; press these inserts FIRMLY against the outer wall surface to flatten the adhesive beads (use two small, narrower beads instead of one thick one - the idea here is you do NOT want another air gap, even a thin one.) Where the hole from below comes in, that will also need to be sealed; 2x lumber, properly caulked, will be about the same as 2 layers of sheet rock but stronger. Then, when you put your inner wallboard layers on the RC, they will constitute the second leaf in your m-a-m barrier to below; I don't think there's a way to kill flanking here, other than your RC for all inner surfaces. Floor - any commercial, resilient-mounted flooring option can help here; you're not doing drums/bass in there, so you don't need as much iso that way. Had some time left so tried to cover as much as possible; hope this helps... Steve