OK, I'm done (I think, I hope) with the :shock: :shock: :shock: electrical plans. :shock: :shock: :shock: I welcome your feedback, everyone (especially you, Steve, of course!) 8)
Bear in mind that this space is not going to be used for recording, so there is no special grounding or anything like that, nor does there need to be.
All the lights will be incandescent (no fluorescents) and on dimmers wired in 3-way circuits. I'm not planning to use any low-voltage lighting, mostly because I haven't worked with it myself... However, I'm open to changing my plans to incorporate 12v lights and learn about them if there's a compelling reason to do so. :)
By the way, I'm meeting with the machine/fabrication shop tomorrow morning -- hopefully I'll be able to get my EPDM tested this week! Wish me luck...
Thanks!
FINISHED IN 2020! Sharward's Partial Garage Conversion
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 2921.
Well, the machine shop now has my EPDM, plus a stick of PT 2x4 and some Liquid Nails so that they can make a little "leg" just like I'll be using. They quoted me a "not to exceed" price of 5 hours @ $60/hour for the testing. That doesn't count final cutting into dozens of 1 1/2" x 3 1/2" pucks; they'll be able to give me a better idea of the effort involved in that once they work with it a little.
I'm confident that these guys know what I need and know how to get it for me. 8)
It's official! This thread has been viewed more times than the "VITAL Update- Everyone Please Read AGAIN***" announcement! :lol: Hee hee
(Now, don't everyone go read that thread and make a liar out of me! :twisted: )
Printed out your pdf, haven't had time to go over it yet... Steve
I got my EPDM puck compression test results today from S and S Machine in Roseville, and I'm very pleased! Total cost: $180 (3 hours of labor @ $60/hour).
I have taken the data that the shop gave me and plotted it on a graph. They did four tests, all using the same 3½" x 1½" x ½" EPDM Durometer 60 puck, which was glued to a 2" high piece of pressure-treated lumber (1½" x 3½") using standard Liquid Nails adhesive. They were careful to ensure that the puck had nothing in its way to prevent the rubber from spreading out sideways.
The first two tests were atop aluminum blocks. The last two tests were also atop aluminum blocks, except they put some teflon between the rubber and the aluminum to allow it to spread more easily and uniformly. That second condition was a great call on their part -- the difference between the two conditions is significant!
The results seem to indicate that this puck can take a LOT of weight without "bottoming out" -- at least, this is true under temporary load in a lab -- I don't have 25 years to spare to see what the characteristics of the stuff is over time. ;) There also seems to be some kind of "memory effect," since the 2nd test of each condition shows results of greater compression at the same weights.
Anyway, much to my surprise, it seems that each puck can take on between 350 and 800 pounds in order to achieve the recommended 10% compression. 25% compression occurs at 1,100 to 1,800 pounds. Also interesting is that first test of the puck showed 40 pounds compressing 1% and 100 pounds compresing 1.6%. All of this tells me that aiming for the 10% figure gives me lots of margin of error with minimal risk of underloading or overloading! 8) They cranked the last test up to 4,000 pounds, just to see what would happen -- but it still didn't "bottom out"! What planet is this stuff from anyway?! :shock:
I should point out that they said the Liquid Nails gave way at the high end, around 2,000 pounds I think. So, there is some risk of the puck separating from the leg if loaded too much.
Have a look for yourself...
That is so cool. I've been following your plans with great interest, but now i'm truly "geeking out" as Syndrome (The Incredibles) would say.
I'm researching/planning a drum room myself, and I'm not too far from you geographically, so I've been paying close attention to where you get your materials. Keep the details coming! :D
Thanks for the encouragement, Dan! I know people are following this thread, as evidenced by the 3,000+ views it's had since its inception. 8)
I've been in touch with two other guys in the region (one in Sacramento, one in Stockton), and we're discussing getting together to go over each others' plans. I'm thinking that a regional meet might be in order! :twisted:
Hey, maybe we can have Steve (nightfly) by speakerphone as a guest keynote speaker! :mrgreen:
I now humbly present my plans for EPDM placement!
I chose the placements based on the spreadsheet I compiled estimating the weight of all the construction materials, and figuring about 300 pounds per puck (which is, I believe, a little less than 10% compression per puck). The spreadsheet figures about 7,000 pounds for the floor, 6,000 pounds for the walls, and 2,000 pounds for the ceiling (which is supported by the long walls on the left and right sides of the room).
The puck spacing on the left and right sides are 24" O.C. in order to maintain even spacing. I would have liked to have done 16" O.C. to match the spacing of the floor joists, but I think that would have been too many pucks and not enough compression per puck.
Obviously, the success of the puck spacing is wholly dependent on the accuracy of my weight estimates, which I haven't received any feedback on yet.
This is a huge milestone and, based on what I have learned here, the "make or break" point of the plan. It's one of the things that will be nearly impossible to fix after the fact, so I've got to get it right the first time! :roll:
This is a top view of the floor framing, so it is an optical illusion that the pucks are visible -- they'll actually be underneath, sitting below a block of pressure-treated 2x4 that is cut to size. These "stubby legs" will double as leveling blocks, as the concrete floor of the garage is sloped slightly towards the 16x7 front door. It will be held steady and fastened to the joists with pressure-treated 2x4 on each side.
Why not change the surface area of your pucks downward by 1/3, so you CAN put them on 16" centers? Your frame will be stronger if those pucks support the main joists AT the attachment points of cross-joists, instead of a few inches away.
Also, what page is your weight estimate on so I can review it?
Did you estimate the extra weight your inner ceiling will add to the walls/perimeter floor joists by using half the total ceiling weight distributed over each long wall, or something different?
And, are you basing your calc's on the longer term compression or the short-term?
And, would you like fries with that? :wink:
I suppose I could do that... I was just sticking with a consistent puck size, primarily because that's the size I tested. Should I chisel point the bottom of my PT blocks, like this \___/ and put cut the puck down to 1 1/2" x 2 1/2"?Why not change the surface area of your pucks downward by 1/3, so you CAN put them on 16" centers? Your frame will be stronger if those pucks support the main joists AT the attachment points of cross-joists, instead of a few inches away.
My weight estimates are in my spreadsheet from hell.Also, what page is your weight estimate on so I can review it?
Indeed I did. :)Did you estimate the extra weight your inner ceiling will add to the walls/perimeter floor joists by using half the total ceiling weight distributed over each long wall, or something different?
I'm not sure. I'm figuring about 300 pounds per puck (which is, I believe, a little less than 10% compression per puck). I guess that's "short term," given the limited amount of time the pucks were tested at the shop.And, are you basing your calc's on the longer term compression or the short-term?
Always! 8) Thanks again, Steve.And, would you like fries with that? :wink:
I popped into my city's Permit Center today to get some advice prior to making my "official" visit (hopefully next week) to hopefully secure a permit.
I learned that I'm actually dealing with two departments: one is Planning, which ensures that such things as zoning and setback requirements are adhered to (which will be a breeze), and the other is Building, which is where the extra scrutiny will occur.
After a couple of hours at the counter with a building department rep, I became aware of some red flags in my plans:
- The bottom of my outer leaf door is too high. I think I need to either lower the outer door and move the inner door farther inside by another 8-12" to accommodate there being a "non step" plus a step in the space between the doors, or have a 3' x 3' "pad" outside the outer leaf door. As much as I hate the idea of losing any more footage in the room, I'm leaning towards moving the inner leaf door a bit to accommodate the steps between the doors.
I need "fresh air" ventillation. This is because the room is considered "habitable" (even though it is not going to be a bedroom). If this were going to be a shop, it would not need fresh air (e.g., a window). However, because the room is going to be equipped with a permanent air conditioning unit, it cannot be considered an uninhabitable shop. Therefore, I need to have a window (no freakin' way!) or some kind of exhaust/fresh ventillation system. This is quite disappointing, as the only way to do this is to compromise my walls or ceiling. :cry: What I was thinking of was an incoming vent that would pull air from the ceiling of a faraway room of the house (I'm thinking the living room) and into the ceiling of the studio, and an outgoing vent that would push air out of the house (I'm thinking the back of the house, an area where the roof peaks and will be close to where my mini split A/C lines will be penetrating the outer back wall). The ducts would make a number of 90-degree turns along the way.
I talked with one of my mini-split bidders, and here's the recommendation:
- Rough-in the lines for the mini-split system.
Run a two 8" R8 ducts into the room, one for supply and one for return, and tie them directly into the house's existing 5 year old 4-ton HVAC system (which is not multi-zoned). The ducts would have several 90-degree turns to mitigate sound leakage into the house through the HVAC system.
At the thermostat in the hallway of the house, set the fan to "on" (not "auto") when the room is being used, which will ensure constant flow of air into the room (and throughout the house).
If over time it is determined that the room needs an upgrade of cooling capacity, install the mini-split system, using the lines previously roughed in.
i can't believe you would ever have need for the mini split system, considering how insulated and airtight your room will be. unless your a/c unit is as wimpy as mine (about as large as a milk crate).
Well, I figured that with a full band in the room with amplifiers cranked up, not to mention my being a wimp in terms of overheating easily, I really fell in love with the idea of being able to control the temperature of the room down to the Fahrenheit degree... not to mention, not cutting gaping holes for ducting.
Maybe the 8" ducts (in and out) will suffice, and the rest can be made up with simple good old-fashioned fans (not the groupie kind ;) ).
Time will tell, assuming I go with that recommendation. Thanks for your thoughts. :)
oh yeah that makes sense. for some reason i keep picturing just you and your drums in there. :oops:
it must be your "lonely drums" avatar. "why am i not being played?? WHY??"
OMG, how did you know that's what they've been saying lately?! :evil: In truth, they've been zipped up in gig bags for about a year now while we (a) prepped our old house for sale, (b) prepped our new house for move-in, (c) moved out of the old house, (d) moved into the new house, (e) finished painting the interior of the new house (f) had a massive water intrusion that forced us out of the old house and into a hotel for about a month, (g) moved back into the new house after $75,000 in repairs, and finally (h) months of planning, which y'all have witnessed most of in this thread!it must be your "lonely drums" avatar. "why am i not being played?? WHY??"
Keith, does this mean that they won't let you use pink fluffy fiberglass insulation or similar in your walls? Or had you already changed that in your plan? I was hoping to use standard home insulation so i'm curious.I learned that rockwool is fine as a fire block, provided there are no voids at all.
I did not ask specifically whether other types of insulation besides rockwool (a.k.a. "the pink fluffy stuff") would suffice.
That raises a good point about complying with codes and local building department regulations: never assume that what is acceptable for one project by one bureaucrat's interpretation of one city's amendment to that city's adoption of a model code book will be acceptable to your project in your town.
In other words, use what you learn here, and everwhere, to learn what questions to ask your building department.
Your mileage may vary, and (perhaps quite fitting in this case) void where prohibited! :wink:
I almost forgot: my building department won't accept a 1/2 schedule screw pattern on the first two layers of drywall, which is discussed at length in this post (and elsewhere). They said: full schedule on all three layers, period. My attempt to politely argue the point was shut down immediately.
(There's something pretty humbling about trying to argue to the building folks why you should be allowed to do something "half way." :( )
I'm assuming this is not a huge issue... And before anyone suggests it, no, I'm not going to "sneak it in."
but, is the pink fluffy stuff (owens corning) rockwool? i think it is fiberglass right? this is different stuff i think. or am i confused? :roll: roxul's website says it is different, with a much higher melting/burning point. sorry if i'm being a dork, but if the inspector says rockwool and you use pink fluffy then you may have a problem come inspection time. :shock: dan :)I did not ask specifically whether other types of insulation besides rockwool (a.k.a. "the pink fluffy stuff") would suffice.
I think you're confused. The pink fluffy stuff is fiberglass. The stuff I'll be using is Roxul AFB which is "made from basalt rock and slag."but, is the pink fluffy stuff (owens corning) rockwool? i think it is fiberglass right? this is different stuff i think. or am i confused? :roll:I did not ask specifically whether other types of insulation besides rockwool (a.k.a. "the pink fluffy stuff") would suffice.
Got it, you have decided to use Roxul throughout.
By the way on the subject of cooling, the advantage of using 12v i believe would be they are much cooler than regular incandescent. A few regular bulbs generate a ton of heat. I have installed a 12 volt system for exterior lighting, it's no big deal & i assume the inteior ones youd' use would be the same thing. Maybe this would help save you from eventually installing the minisplit system.However, I'm open to changing my plans to incorporate 12v lights and learn about them if there's a compelling reason to do so.
Thanks very much for the tip, Dan. :)
Here's a blurb on low voltage lighting:
- Most use the MR16 type of 12 volt halogen bulb. The line voltage (110 volts) of electricity is converted to 12 volts by the use of small rectangular transformers built into each track fixture. There are 4 major benefits when using this type of lighting fixture: 1) Fixtures and bulbs are much smaller than those which use the standard PAR type of halogen. 2) Most of the warmth radiating from the bulb is dissipated to the rear of the bulb (away from what you are lighting). This makes the bulb much cooler and much more comfortable to be near. 3) The third major benefit of these types of fixtures is that the MR16 halogen bulbs that they use give you quite a bit of light for the wattage. For example, a 50 watt MR16 type of halogen will give you the same output of light as a standard incandescent bulb of about 100 watts! Yet another advantage of the low voltage track fixtures is that the MR16 type halogens that they use come in many different wattages and beam angles. You can fine tune where the light is directed to get anything from a small pool of light (great for pedestal tops) to an extra-wide flood beam angle to get a nice wall wash effect. (Source)
Does anyone know what sort of EMI/RFI can be expected with 12v lighting? I work at Lowes and walk past that aisle and there's a lot of audible buzz too, although that could be from other things close by, since all the lights are together.
Hi Sam... A little creative Googling on my part turned up this interesting thread for you (and others). Hope that helps! :mrgreen:Does anyone know what sort of EMI/RFI can be expected with 12v lighting?