Preliminary Design Considerations-Basement Aspiring to Amaze

Whelp, too late for that :( I'm going to put as much as possible behind the outer leaf, and anything that is between leaves will have additional insulation...that's about the best I can do.

The best you can do is just that. At least you're trying your best! :jammin: Greg

I'm not exactly sure, but you can see in the pics - I've attached another one for ease of reference. All ductwork is wrapped in the same shiny insulation.

:shock: That's a bit of a mess, actually! If you show that to a professional HVAC installer, he'd be rather shocked... and would likely suggest that you get that re-done properly. There are ducts over ducts, under ducts, around ducts, with not much discernible organization. But don't feel bad: a lot of houses end up looking like that, because the work was done by a contractor who just wanted to finish quickly, and didn't really plan it right, or do it right. HVAC is the often "poor relative" of the construction proess, that gets the least budget and lowest priority... a sort of "afterthought" tagged on at the end.... producing the type of mess you have there... I'm sure it works, but it doesn't work with high efficiency, and takes up more space than it needs to.... But anyway, it is what it is! Unless you are prepared to get that re-done properly (which would cost money...), you'll probably just have to live with it... - Stuart -

Hey guys, I was wondering if it would be possible to only have a SINGLE baffle box per supply or return vent, situated in the attic above my studio with an MDF "sleeve" that extended through both leaves but was isolated via acoustical caulk like in the attached very primitive sketch? I used Rod's book to build my room within a room in the garage but it had no plans for baffle boxes in it and I need to add them. Acoustic drums are played along with loud bass and guitars so low frequency insertion loss is desired. I was planning on using two pieces of 3/4" thick MDF for each leaf of the boxes. The studio uses double 5/8" drywall on both leaves so I'm trying to maintain that level of mass in the baffle boxes and sleeve. Thanks in advance for your help

Hi. Please read the forum rules for posting (click here). You seem to be missing a couple of things! :)

I was wondering if it would be possible to only have a SINGLE baffle box per supply or return vent, situated in the attic above my studio with an MDF "sleeve" that extended through both leaves but was isolated via acoustical caulk

If you only need moderate levels of isolation, then it is possible to do that, yes. But not for high levels.

Acoustic drums are played along with loud bass and guitars

... up to this point, it was possible, but then you said "acoustic drums" and "loud bass guitar".... So I'd have to say no, not a good idea.

I was planning on using two pieces of 3/4" thick MDF for each leaf of the boxes.

I'm not sure what you mean by "each leaf of the box"... silencer boxes only have one leaf. There's no way you can make a box with two leaves and still have the leaves fully decoupled.

like in the attached very primitive sketch?

That sketch shows a box that has a resonant cavity inside the walls, and with fully coupled sides of the cavity... It does not show a two-leaf box. It is also using MORE wood than you would have used to make two separate boxes, and is much larger than either of those separate boxes would have been.... and even though you call it a "baffle box", there are no baffles in it.

situated in the attic above my studio with an MDF "sleeve" that extended through both leaves

How deep are the floor joists in your attic? If they are large enough, then it is feasible to build silencer boxes between the joists. In very tight spaces, I have done that, and it works... but yu do have to design them carefully.

I used Rod's book to build my room within a room in the garage

So the studio is already built? It would be a good idea to start your own thread, and post photos in that of what you have, along with the detailed plans of how you did that. - Stuart -

My apologies for hijacking another user’s thread. I appreciate your comments and will start a new discussion on this topic

Sorry I didn't see the last couple posts, I don't think I got an email notification but either way have been busy having a baby! Thankfully now that's out of the way ;) Not much to post other than to say thanks for the input on the HVAC stuff. I will do the best I can but we've already put the money we can into addressing it - I'll post more pics later on, and it has been re-routed a bit to clear some space, but at this point it is not going to change. I've had to focus on building the other rooms in the basement, and I thought I would have more help on that, so I haven't actually done a single damn thing on the studio part. So unfortunately I will be moving my music stuff into the spare room that we built out for hopefully not more than 6 months to a year while I work on the studio build. So after all the planning, I'm understandably frustrated but it's ok - at least I'll have a place to make music and the baby has a nursery. Anyway, just wanted to check in...I will probably be asking for some advice on cheap treatments for the temporary room, maybe some bogos that I can then repurpose for the studio. Isolation will be crap but I'll still need to track vocals and do some mixing in there. I will obviously not be expecting professional results and can't spend much money, but I'm hoping to make it usable. I'll do some more research and have specific questions before I take up your valuable and much appreciated time :)

Congratulations on the baby! If it makes you feel better, my build is on hold due to mold issues. Granted I have a funny but usable little set up I threw together in half a day in my in laws basement with a tiny iso booth and "control room". The good news is I recently upgraded my editing/mixing suite from my walk in closet to my daughters bedroom. I'm debating putting holes in the walls to hang a few panels of insulation as I've been suffering doing a lot of mixing on headphones. It's a nightmare. But like you, working in such crappy conditions will inspire us to complete our builds! Greg

Thank you! And major bummer about mold issues...part of my delay was to fix flooding issues, and that seems to have worked...fingers crossed! And yes, inspiration through crap! Love it :) I will say, one of the walls on the spare room is the outer leaf for the studio, and following y'all's instructions of double 5/8 drywall, Green Glue, sealant, and insulation (I'm using Safe N Sound)...wow, it's remarkable how much isolation even that one wall provides. Granted sound travels all around it, but you can really tell that not much at all is passing through. And that's only one leaf!

Hello! OK, so I'm almost done with the "spare room" in the basement, which is what I will be using as my temporary studio for however long it takes to build the actual studio. I would like to invest a little bit of time and money into making it sound at least halfway decent, so I've been researching treatments/absorption panels/gobos. Here's what I would like: 1. To have whatever treatments I build be usable in the actual studio once it's built 2. To have a halfway decent area for mixing 3. To have a halfway decent area for tracking vocals After looking around a bunch, I think my best bet would be to build two large gobos and six broadband panels. I apologize if this is confusing but I'm going to do my best to describe what I'm thinking. For the actual/future studio, I think I would like the re-purpose the gobos as the second set of angled walls that will comprise the mix position. I haven't done the actual mix position planning in Sketchup, but in the first pic, you can hopefully see where I intend to build it once I have it figured out. The part that is just laid out will be permanently built to house speaker soffits, and I will do some refinements with the idea that it will be RFZ. Is this feasible? I like the idea because I could move the gobos to other locations when I'm not mixing, even just as out of the way as possible to make the room more comfortable for writing and tracking vocals. I am also thinking I could put them behind the singer when tracking vocals and try to figure out how to make that sound decent and not boxy. The absorbers are pretty straightforward, and please excuse the placement in the drawings, it's just to get an idea. The second picture shows the temporary studio, where I would put the gobos behind the mix position to hopefully improve the overall sound quality. I know this won't be great but I'm hoping it's worth doing. The other questions I have: 1. I'm going down an insulation rabbit hole again, and having trouble finding clear answers, especially given what I have available to me at a reasonably convenient distance. So my questions are a) is Safe N Sound OK to use in the gobos, and zooming out, b) is it ok to use basically everywhere else (in the walls of the rest of the studio build)? I know this has been covered a bit but I see the density is not as good as some other options. But it's always in stock at the Home Depot that is five minutes from my house. If it's significantly better to use something else, any suggestions on what would be in stock at a typical Home Depot or Lowe's? I've called around to try to find OC-703 or other rigid fiberglass, and the specialty stores so far are not open on weekends, so it's not ideal for me. I will order a case of OC-703 for the absorbers. 2. For my purposes, should I put plywood, drywall, or MDF on the rear side of the gobos? I may theoretically use them to try to get separation when tracking a band in the future, but that's not the main goal. But I don't mind adding it now if it makes sense. Seems like there's plenty of info on the construction elsewhere on the site so I'll try not to bother y'all for that :) The third picture is the whole basement so you can get an idea of how it all fits together. Any help would as always be very much appreciated!

is Safe N Sound OK to use in the gobos

Yes. If you're using them as your suedo rear wall treatment, use 6" thick (so two batts of it).

is it ok to use basically everywhere else (in the walls of the rest of the studio build)?

Chances are it will work great for your temp room. When it comes to treating your actual control room, you'll probably need an assortment of insulation products in order to target problems.

any suggestions on what would be in stock at a typical Home Depot or Lowe's?

Owens Corning R24 is cheap and the right density for targeting low frequencies. The Home Depot's around me carry the 16 O.C. size. You could maybe save some money building super chunks for your corners with this stuff instead of Safe n Sound.

2. For my purposes, should I put plywood, drywall, or MDF on the rear side of the gobos? I may theoretically use them to try to get separation when tracking a band in the future, but that's not the main goal. But I don't mind adding it now if it makes sense.

With very heavy/thick material, you could achieve some isolation, but as you know, it won't help with low frequencies at all. It would help with higher frequencies only (like plexi in front of a drum kit at a live show). With your current set up, I would suggest laying guide tracks over a click track and then record one musician at a time. In my experience, unless it's off the cuff jazz improv, it always yields better and quicker results.

The third picture is the whole basement so you can get an idea of how it all fits together. Any help would as always be very much appreciated!

Your drawing does not show any bass trapping. That needs to be priority number 1. I just leaned up a few 12" wide strips of insulation in two of the corners of my daughters room where I'm doing a little bit of work and REW measurement differences are staggering. They are only about 6 feet long so I'm missing out on tri corner benefits. I can only imagine how much better the room would be with nice wide devices in every corner. Anyway, I would treat your temp room as any other control room and apply one device at a time and take measurements. Targeting first reflections, tons of bass trapping, and of course having that thick rear wall treatment would be no brainer steps going forward. Greg

Thank you for the response!

Yes. If you're using them as your suedo rear wall treatment, use 6" thick (so two batts of it).

I think I'm just gonna get a few packs of 703 and go pick it up on my lunch break. Figure with two layers it'll be more like 4", which I'd prefer. But my main question is if my idea of using these in the future studio as the second angled walls is a good idea? It's not for isolation, more for treatment and getting the RFZ zone, as far as my limited understanding goes anyway :)

Chances are it will work great for your temp room. When it comes to treating your actual control room, you'll probably need an assortment of insulation products in order to target problems.

For this I really mean in the walls for isolation, not elsewhere in the room for treatment. So I'll be using a ton of it, and I just started getting freaked out that I was making a mistake. The R-24 stuff would be good for a superchunk, but it's 6" thick so can't use it in the walls. Maybe the ceiling...but I'm not there yet.

With very heavy/thick material, you could achieve some isolation, but as you know, it won't help with low frequencies at all. It would help with higher frequencies only (like plexi in front of a drum kit at a live show). With your current set up, I would suggest laying guide tracks over a click track and then record one musician at a time. In my experience, unless it's off the cuff jazz improv, it always yields better and quicker results.

I apologize if I'm not explaining this clearly, but this goes to my point above. The two gobos would be to pull double duty - as treatment behind the mix area in my temporary studio, and then as the second angled walls in the mix area of the future studio. And then I guess triple duty, as I could move them around for tracking in theory, but this is the least important use. For the first two, would it be good to have a hard surface? It may be impossible to know right now, just thinking I'd rather include that in the initial planning if it will be helpful.

Your drawing does not show any bass trapping. That needs to be priority number 1. I just leaned up a few 12" wide strips of insulation in two of the corners of my daughters room where I'm doing a little bit of work and REW measurement differences are staggering. They are only about 6 feet long so I'm missing out on tri corner benefits. I can only imagine how much better the room would be with nice wide devices in every corner. Anyway, I would treat your temp room as any other control room and apply one device at a time and take measurements. Targeting first reflections, tons of bass trapping, and of course having that thick rear wall treatment would be no brainer steps going forward.

Excellent point! I was planning on delaying any bass trapping until I'm in the future studio, but maybe I should figure out some treatments for the temp studio that I can re-use as well. Or maybe even just figure out something cheap and temporary that will help for the time being. Appreciate the help very much, and any further clarification in particular on the wisdom of my double duty walls and the insulation to use inside the actual studio walls would be most welcome!

I wouldn't go less than 6" for your rear wall insulation. R24 is actually 5.5" thick. It's VERY VERY easy to rip to whatever thickness you need. I doubt you'll be able to reuse the gobos as soffit wings as the wings need to be exact and permanent with very heavy/nice looking material on it's face. Greg

I wouldn't go less than 6" for your rear wall insulation. R24 is actually 5.5" thick. It's VERY VERY easy to rip to whatever thickness you need.

Good deal, thanks! I think my Home Depot has only Knauf stuff in stock but I will definitely grab some and try it out. Safe n Sound pretty much sucks to work with :(

I doubt you'll be able to reuse the gobos as soffit wings as the wings need to be exact and permanent with very heavy/nice looking material on it's face.

Bummer. Though to be clear, my thought is not to mount the speakers in these things, but rather to use them for the walls like the ones in the crude attached pic. I could add slats for reflections and whatever else is needed as well.

You have TWO sets of speakers mounted in your soffits? Why? How will you make that work? Also, it's not clear if you are trying to d an RFZ style room? If so, your wings are not angled steeply enough. - Stuart -

Thanks for chiming in! Sorry, I’m not being clear. That last pic is just something I pulled from online, just to illustrate what I’m hoping to use my gobos for. Disregard everything about it except that what my idea is - to make gobos that I can put behind me in my temp studio and then repurpose and use to create those walls in the mix position of the future studio.

Also Stuart - For what it's worth, in my mind my idea is not too different from the variable acoustic treatment that you described earlier in this thread. I guess I just don't understand why those two wing walls can't be done somewhat in the way I'm describing. I'm not at a point of figuring out the exact details but I would think I can add slats to the front, perhaps on hinged doors so I could open it up if I needed to use it as more of a traditional gobo, and I could have it on locking wheels so it's more or less permanent when it's in place. One of the main reasons this is appealing to me is that I could move them out of the way to make the space more open when I'm writing and tracking, which will probably be 75% of what I do in the room. Is this just a dead end that I should stop thinking about? I'm still aways from finalizing the design of the future studio, let alone building it, but I could get started on these to use in the temp studio, which I will be moving into within a week or two. I started putting baseboards down so it's legit almost done. I hope I'm describing this sufficiently - it's always tough when you're living with the project to convey details adequately :)

Though to be clear, my thought is not to mount the speakers in these things, but rather to use them for the walls like the ones in the crude attached pic. I could add slats for reflections and whatever else is needed as well.

Those walls are referred to as soffit wings or other similar names. As Stuart mentioned, they need to be at exact angles in order to provide a reflection free listening sphere around your head. In most designs you'll find on the forum you'll see that the wings are made of very dense materials. This is because they act together with the baffles around your speakers to extend the baffles out to your side walls ultimately attempting to create an "infinite baffle". Adding slats to these walls will ultimately affect this effect and maybe in your design it would work well. However, the idea is to have them do their infinite baffle job as well as direct sound away from your head and towards the back wall where the back wall can work it's magic. Creating gobos that can double as soffit wings sounds pretty crazy to me. If I were you, I'd build the gobos and use them in whatever manner you feel will work in your temp room. Once it comes time to build your actual room, rip the insulation out of the gobos and reuse whatever materials you can. I just don't see your double duty design being worth the hassle at this stage of the game. Greg

Thanks Greg! Seems most of my brilliant ideas are not quite as brilliant as they seem in my head ;) Again, for what it's worth, the slats were just spit balling - if there was a way to make the double duty gobos work, I would do that. But I feel I'm in danger of this if I keep pursuing this idea: :horse: I think a reasonable plan for me now in this case is to make pretty standard broadband absorbers out of 703 and do some experimentation with those in my temp studio. I feel like I will be able to reuse those no matter what. Then I can go from there, either building gobos or otherwise trying to add some treatment to that room with an eye to at least repurposing the materials like you suggest. At the end of the day I've never done any proper acoustic treatments on my previous studios, so this seems like a good way to get my toes wet and observe the effects of various treatments while I make music in my temp studio, and continue to plan and build the future studio. And I have another idea that I also think is brilliant for the absorbers. I'm a painter too, and I was hoping to use a painting as the outer fabric to make them look cool, but after looking around, that seems not to be a good option. So I think what I'm gonna do is get some black fire retardant muslin from a theater company and splatter bleach on it, Jackson Pollock style, hopefully creating a cool visual effect without changing the acoustic properties of the fabric. Please don't tell me this won't work either...I can only handle so much disappointment in one day ;)

Good stuff! Just make sure you can easily breathe through the muslin. If you can't, then you can't use that material. Do you have a measurement microphone for room eq wizard yet? You'll want to take a measurement before you put up ANY treatment. There are clear instructions compliments of Stuart on the forum for you to follow to take measurements. You'll be blown away seeing the difference even one bass trap makes :wink: :thu: Greg

Nice! Yeah, I read about the breath test, so I'm hopeful the stuff I found online will be ok. It's only like $15 for a decent amount of it so not a disaster if it won't work. I think I do have a mic that I can use. It's been awhile since I read through all of that but I'll try to figure it out hopefully next week once I get my stuff set up, and before I start on treatments. I don't want to spend too much time of this temp studio, but this will also be good practice for the future studio.

It's been awhile since I read through all of that but I'll try to figure it out hopefully next week once I get my stuff set up, and before I start on treatments.

Refresher on how to do that: :) How to calibrate and use REW to test and tune your room acoustics - Stuart -

Thanks Stuart! Sounds like fun :) Hopefully by next week I can take some measurements and start building my absorbers. I'm thinking at this point of doing four 2" broadband absorbers and four 4" "bass traps", which I understand from reading around do not really trap bass at all. But I feel like that's a doable project and will be fun, and all of that can be reused in the future studio. I'm assuming I'll also do superchunks in there, and probably more, but this would be a good start. But I'll plan to get the measurements first to make sure I'm not wasting time or money. But I'm pretty certain the temp studio will sound like absolute garbage and I don't want to spend too much time perfecting it because every bit of time I put into it is time I'm not using towards the future studio.

Hi again! Just wanted to post again to say that this thread/project is not dead, just still experiencing the oft-predicted delay and project creep. It turns out that I am basically renovating this entire basement, plus other parts of the house, on my own. Woo hoo! I've still been making music in my little temporary room and for the past little bit have been working to finish yet ANOTHER part of the basement that is not my studio. So my current plan, which will surely be delayed, is to start the studio for real in 2020. As always I appreciate all your guys' help, and I will be back with updates and questions once I'm further along. And in the meantime I'll re-learn everything I've already forgotten from last year when I started this odyssey! But I'm telling you, at the end of this there will pictures of the best studio I was able to make, and the change from before and after will be pretty sweet :)

Glad to hear it is still on-going! And still aspiring to amaze! :) Studio building often goes like this: it takes much longer than you ever dreamed it could, is a lot harder to do than you ever dreamed it could be, and costs a lot more than you ever dreamed it might cost... But at the end, you'll have a great room where you can happily make music... and amaze your friends!. - Stuart -

I'm baaaack! OK, another year has almost passed and I still have not started my studio! It's not ideal, but the rest of the basement is almost finished at least! :cen: Anyway, I wanted to stop back in to let y'all know I am still doing this, and it's just predictably taken waaaaaay longer than I had hoped. But I am reasonably, possibly naively, confident that I will start before the end of the year. The main reason for my current delays were that we decided to spend most of the spring working on outdoor projects, and the piece of the basement that will be used for storage turned out to be a priority, because we have a huge storage unit in our driveway, and after two years it needs to go! Both those projects are nearly done so the studio is next up. Oh, I also had to work on a bunch of music in my crappy temporary studio :) I will post more about this in the near future but I have also pretty significantly simplified my plans. I will not be completely building the "room within a room" in my current thinking - it's just too much work, and at the end of the day, the tradeoff in isolation is worth the extra space and actually getting this project done. I'm a little disappointed, but mostly at peace with the decision. So I hope everyone is well and hanging on through these tumultuous times! I'll be back in touch in the coming months with an update and some questions about my revised approach. Thank you!! -Dan