Preliminary Design Considerations-Basement Aspiring to Amaze

Hi all, First off, thanks for this amazing resource - I'm in the early stages of planning a small home studio in the basement of my house and finding this resource has been amazing, and really showed me how much I don't know yet :) Please be gentle, but I've done a fair amount of searching and haven't been able to find an answer to my specific initial questions yet. A response with a link would be plenty if that exists out there! So my basic question as I'm starting this process, is whether it is "better" to have one decent sized control room, or a smaller control room and live room. Right now I am mostly recording electronic music with vocals, and I was thinking of putting in a vocal booth, but I would want the opportunity to record guitars and drum sets in the future. I don't need to track a full band, so I would want a live room that could ideally work for a singer, as well as guitars/bass/drums. The other option would be to have the ability to record those things in the "control" room. I don't have exact dimensions yet but the overall square footage would be probably in the neighborhood of 250. Any general guidance would be super helpful. Much respect to all who post here. I will hopefully be starting a build thread in the near future, but I am too early in the process for that.

Hi, Daniel, and Welcome! :)

So my basic question as I'm starting this process, is whether it is "better" to have one decent sized control room, or a smaller control room and live room.

Depending on the sizes, it is almost always better to go with two rooms. The acoustic needs of control rooms and live rooms are very different: A control room needs to be neutral, flat, transparent, uninteresting, un-colored, etc. There are very specific goals for that, laid out in documents such as ITU BS.1116-3. On the other hand, live rooms need to be be... well "Live"! They need to have acoustic character, warmth, style, air, color, etc. Live rooms need to sound GOOD. Control rooms need to sound as though they aren't even there at all. Live rooms need to enhance the music, make it sound better, complimenting the music with it's own coloration. Control rooms cannot ever be allowed to do that. So, if possible, it is better to build two rooms. However, there are exceptions: such as when dividing a space into two would make both rooms too small to be practical. Or when the budget simply cannot be stretched to afford the separate isolation and treatment of two rooms. Or where there are structural limitations on the building itself that would not allow supporting the weight of two rooms. etc. In those cases, it is possible to do just one room, and build variable acoustics devices to alter the acoustic response of the room, so that it can be "neutral" when you need to mix, and "something else" when you need to track. Quite a bit more complicated to design devices like that, but feasible Here's one that I designed for one of my customers a while back: Under construction: COMPLETED: The two side "wings" open over the center slot wedge, and change the acoustics of the room considerably. Of course, you can also open them part way, to any angle you feel like, and have a whole range of acoustic "signatures" in the room. It's not just "open and closed". Various positions in between will give various alternative scenarios. That said, it also depends on WHAT you are tracking: Acoustic guitar, vocals, and some other things can often be tracked reasonably well in a control room, for example. Electric guitars, drums, brass, percussion in general, piano, etc: Not so much. They need larger, livelier, more airy spaces in general.

I don't have exact dimensions yet but the overall square footage would be probably in the neighborhood of 250.

That's very close to the minimum recommended size for a control room: 220 ft2 is the recommended minimum. So it's VERY unlikely you could get both a CR and also an LR in that space. It is possible to have a CR smaller than 220 ft2, for sure, but the smaller it is, the harder it is to treat. And having one small enough to also allow for an LR within 250 ft, is probably not going to happen. About the smallest total area you could do for that, would be +/- 400 ft2.

I will hopefully be starting a build thread in the near future, but I am too early in the process for that.

I disagree! :) It is NEVER to early to start your thread here on the forum! Even if there is no design at all yet, just questions and answers, that's the absolute best time to start your thread. - Stuart -

Wow, thank you so much for the reply! We're still clearing the space out and trying to fit other rooms in there - basically the basement is about 900 ft2 total, but we want to have storage, a bathroom, spare bedroom, etc. But hopefully in the next week or two I can have a better idea of how much of it will be mind :) But I can tell you for sure it won't be anywhere close to 400ft2. And if it's not too early to start the build thread, we can consider this to be it, if that works...or I can start a new one and conform to the board rules :) It is sounding like one nice room with some variable treatment may be my best option. I'm also concerned with the vibe - I want to be able to use it for song writing and have a few people in, and have it feel comfortable and inspiring, not claustrophobic. (BTW I love your tag line - that's what I'm going for in my little studio if I can pull it off) Is there a general minimum size for the live room, if I were to be able to pull it off? I would like drums, for instance, to sound as good as possible, but if it were really crucial I could track at a local studio for that part and only use stuff I made more for demos, or layered with electronic music, etc. Another thought was to have a nice control room, and then a vocal booth, but I'm less in love with that idea because I feel like I could get good results in a well treated control room designed with that in mind. Do you have other pics of that variable treatment room? And in that second pic, is that a Michael Joly mic? Looks very much like my beloved Hulk 990 :)

basically the basement is about 900 ft2 total, but we want to have storage, a bathroom, spare bedroom,

Cool! So you can have a 250 ft2 CR, and a 650 ft2 live room. Nice! 8) :!: All you'd have to do, is dump the storage, bathroom, and spare bedroom. Not a problem! :) (Of course, I'd imagine there would be some "discussions" about that...)

But I can tell you for sure it won't be anywhere close to 400ft2.

Pity. But even if you do go with one single room, do try to make it as large as possible. Sound likes space. The bigger a room is, the better it will be in general. (For many reasons that I don't have time to go into right now.) When you start figuring our your room size, do take into account the "room ratio". That's the relationship between the length, width, and height, and it is somewhat important. Not critical by any means, but important enough to spend a little time playing aroun with possible sizes, to make sure your dimension ratio ise far away from the "bad" ones, and close to one of the "good" ones. You can figure that out by using one of these ratio calculators: http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm http://amroc.andymel.eu/ Both of those are very good, and will help you to decide how best to build your room. They give you tons of information that is really useful to help figure out the best dimensions.

And if it's not too early to start the build thread, we can consider this to be it, if that works...or I can start a new one and conform to the board rules

It's fine so far, but maybe add a little more background detail in your next post, to give it context. And maybe change the title of your thread to make it more personal: somthing like "Preliminary studio design considerations for Daniel's Amazing Studio", or some such... :)

(BTW I love your tag line - that's what I'm going for in my little studio if I can pull it off)

:thu:

Is there a general minimum size for the live room,

There is, yes, but the recommendation is not something you'd like: the ideal LR has a total air volume of at least FIVE TIMES the air volume of the CR. The reason is a bit convoluted, but not hard to understand: In the CR, you want to be able to listen to exactly what your mics are picking up in the LR. (Obviously!) However, if the decay times for the LR are SHORTER than the decay times for the CR, then you wont be able to hear the natural "reverb tails" of the live room when you listen on the CR speakers, because the tails of the CR itself will be longer, and therefore will mask them! So you won't be able to hear what the live room REALLY sounds like, in all it's subtle glory, because the control room acoustics will be covering that up. You can only hear the tails clearly (and therefore mix them properly...) if they are substantially longer than the tails of the CR. And since the CR tails are written in stone by the size of the CR and BS.1116-3, your only option is to make the LR big enough. However, note that it says "room VOLUME", not "floor area". So if you make the LR ceiling a lot higher than the CR ceiling (which is very much recommended anyway!) then you can have a floor area that does not need to be 5 times larger than that of the CR. For example, a 200 ft2 CR with an 8' 7" ceiling would pair nicely with a 490 ft2 LR that has a 16'6" ceiling (just a bit more than twice the floor area), or a 600 ft2 room with a 14' ceiling, or a 700 ft2 room with a 13' ceiling, etc. However, it would seem that those are out of reach for your place. On the other hand, that's the recommendation for high-end professional studios, where attention to detail is key, "pull out all the stops, spare no expenses, no holds barred", etc. Most studios don't really meet that, and especially not home studios. It is quite possible to have smaller rooms that don't fit that "rule", as long as you understand the consequences and can live with them.

I would like drums, for instance, to sound as good as possible,

How high is your ceiling? Drums need height to sound good. If you have a high enough ceiling, it might be possible to close-mic a drum kit successfully in 250 ft.

Another thought was to have a nice control room, and then a vocal booth, but I'm less in love with that idea because I feel like I could get good results in a well treated control room designed with that in mind.

Absolutely agree! Small vocal booths sound "boxy", and there's nothing you can do to get that "boxy" sound out of the mic.

Do you have other pics of that variable treatment room?

Sure: And the actual tested results from having those wings in various positions: As you can see, they have a small but useful effect on the overall room acoustics, and are able to change the sound from being a bit "dull" to being a bit "bright". As the low frequency decay times go DOWN when you swing the panels in one direction, at the same time the high end decay times go UP, without changing the mid range much at all. That sort of skews the overall response one way to the other, to give you plenty of options. I also designed other variable devices for that same room, that allow you to play with the mid range while not affecting the highs or lows. Thus, you have full control. In this case, the effect is subtle, but in your case it would need to be much larger. However, don't try to copy that for your own room! I designed that specifically to deal with issues in that exact room, and it wouldn't work in a different room. It would be trying to treat problems that don't exist, and NOT treating the ones that DO exist, if you just copied it exactly and put it in a different room with a different shape/size/construction materials/treatment. In general, custom treatment can't be copied, as it is tuned to the room itself.

And in that second pic, is that a Michael Joly mic? Looks very much like my beloved Hulk 990

Not sure, to be honest! I just designed the studio: it's not my studio. That's actually Studio Three Productions, in Missouri. It's their general purpose isolation room, which I think they still call the "varicustic" room, or some such. They also have a second, similar iso room, and the main live room, and the control room, plus another room that is actually more like a lobby that links all the other rooms, but can be used as yet another iso room, if the need arises. Thread here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20471 . I'm really not sure what their mic cabinet holds, but you could send them an e-mail if you want. Rod (the owner) is a great guy, and I'm sure he wouldn't mind letting you know about his mics, or his studio. Ask him if he's happy with the way it turned out... - Stuart -

Thanks again!

Cool! So you can have a 250 ft2 CR, and a 650 ft2 live room. Nice! 8) :!: All you'd have to do, is dump the storage, bathroom, and spare bedroom. Not a problem! :) (Of course, I'd imagine there would be some "discussions" about that...)

Ha! I wish. They would be very short discussions :)

Pity. But even if you do go with one single room, do try to make it as large as possible. Sound likes space. The bigger a room is, the better it will be in general. (For many reasons that I don't have time to go into right now.) When you start figuring our your room size, do take into account the "room ratio". That's the relationship between the length, width, and height, and it is somewhat important. Not critical by any means, but important enough to spend a little time playing aroun with possible sizes, to make sure your dimension ratio ise far away from the "bad" ones, and close to one of the "good" ones. You can figure that out by using one of these ratio calculators: http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm http://amroc.andymel.eu/ Both of those are very good, and will help you to decide how best to build your room. They give you tons of information that is really useful to help figure out the best dimensions.

Understood - I will definitely use those when starting my layouts. I'm learning Sketchup as we speak and am going to see what my options are once we have a better idea of the overall room and needs.

It's fine so far, but maybe add a little more background detail in your next post, to give it context. And maybe change the title of your thread to make it more personal: somthing like "Preliminary studio design considerations for Daniel's Amazing Studio", or some such... :)

A little more background detail: I'm still figuring out what my isolation needs are, but the main issues that I see right now are that the ceiling of my area is the floor of the kitchen, and right now you can literally hear a cell phone vibrate between floors. It won't have to be total isolation, but from reading on here, ideally I would be in the neighborhood of 50+ dB reduction. But I haven't done any measurements or anything, so don't hold me to that yet. The other issue is that my father in-law will be using the basement space/spare bedroom we are building while I am making music. Probably again looking at a reduction in the same range, but I think everyone understands that total isolation is not going to happen. The loudest sounds I will make will be drums and maybe occasional jam sessions, but by far the most frequent activities will be loud singing and mixing/playback. Other information that I have now: the floors are concrete, and the foundation of the house is also concrete. Foundation walls are probably about 18" or so. There is a little less than 8' from the basement floor to the exposed floor joists from the first floor. I'm planning to build a room with a ceiling that doesn't touch the joists, and also treat them, but again, too preliminary to give full details. But that probably eliminates any hope of drums sounding good. I think I would settle for being able to play them without bothering other people in the house, and for any recordings to be "usable" or "decent". I will be able to get some pics and preliminary layouts in the next week or two hopefully. And yes, those control room recs are way out of my range, space-wise. As for the variable treatments, still thinking that is a good option, and I definitely won't copy the design. That studio is beautiful! Probably a little more pro than mine will be but I want to make it as amazing as I can :)

I'm learning Sketchup as we speak

Excellent! But don't use the free on-line (browser-based) version, called SketchUp Free. It's a piece of garbage, barely useful as a toy, and cannot handle the heavier needs of studio design. Instead, use the "SketchUp Make 2017" product, which is also free for non-commercial use. I have the "SketchUp Pro" version because I do commercial design services for my customers with it, but isn't cheap! However, you don't need the "pro" version for designing your own place. So use the "Make" version. It's nearly as good as the "pro" version, only missing some features that you won't even need anyway, and way, way better than the "Free" version for browsers. The two keys to using SketchUp successfully are remembering to join all the geometry of each new "thing" that you make using the "component" tool, then to assign components to "layers" so that you can control visibility. Then you can set up a set of "scenes", which is just camera positions combined with visibility selections, so you can move around your model quickly as you work. Once you figure out that part, the rest is fairly easy.

ideally I would be in the neighborhood of 50+ dB reduction.

Sounds about right. That's the typical goal of a home studio, and is achievable.

There is a little less than 8' from the basement floor to the exposed floor joists from the first floor.

Not fantastic, but not terrible either.

that probably eliminates any hope of drums sounding good.

Not necessarily! Take a look at the concept of building your ceiling "inside out". That frees up your entire inner-leaf joist depth as part of the room volume, which is great! With an 8' limit to the bottom of the joists, it is quite possible that you could end up with an acoustic ceiling of 7'10" like that. If you build conventionally, it would probably be about a foot lower... 7'10" isn't ideal for drums at all, of course, but you do have the full depth of the joists for treatment: you can make the ceiling "disappear" acoustically to a certain extent, if you treat it right, so drums can sound quite decent in there. Not "Wow! Awesome!" of course, but still reasonably good for tracking, especially if you close-mic the kit.

As for the variable treatments, still thinking that is a good option

:thu: It's your only real option of you want a single room that is good for tracking drums and also for mixing. Design it as an RFZ style control room, and plan to record the drums towards the back. That can give you a bit of ambience in the overhead mics, from the reflections that will be returned by the speaker soffits. I would suggest making your room as long as you possibly can, so there's a decent delay for the round-trip of those reflections. Helps to make the room sound bigger than it is, to a certain extent.

and I definitely won't copy the design.

Don't get me wrong! I don't MIND if you copy it: it's just that it wont work! The slots in that slot wedge are tuned specifically to deal with some of the issues in that room, and the "secret" part inside the wings is also tuned. All of that is designed for the specific room in question, so if your room doesn't have those same problems, then that design won't work for you. You'd have to adapt it and re-tune it to deal with YOUR room.

That studio is beautiful!

Thanks! A lot of work went into that studio...

Probably a little more pro than mine will be but I want to make it as amazing as I can

Yours can be pretty darn good too! The more time and intelligence you invest in it, the better it can be. - Stuart -

Awesome, I will definitely check out the non-browser based Sketchup - the free browser version is what I'd been playing around with, and it's ok but does seem pretty limited. Very much appreciate the tips. Good news on isolation potential, and I'm definitely looking into the inside out ceiling. One issue is that there is a ton of wiring and cross supports in between the joists. At this point it's unclear how much of that can be removed, but I think I will have to work around at least some of it. Also glad to hear about drum potential, "reasonably good" would be good enough for my drum tracking needs.

It's your only real option of you want a single room that is good for tracking drums and also for mixing. Design it as an RFZ style control room, and plan to record the drums towards the back. That can give you a bit of ambience in the overhead mics, from the reflections that will be returned by the speaker soffits. I would suggest making your room as long as you possibly can, so there's a decent delay for the round-trip of those reflections. Helps to make the room sound bigger than it is, to a certain extent.

Excellent advice - I will be looking into this and the inside out ceiling as I work up my layouts. I'm sure the first drafts will leave lots to be desired, but already you've been extremely helpful and this is making me feel very inspired to get this going. Oh, and yeah, I've learned enough from this site so far to know that every room is different, so trying to work with what I have to make it the best it can be. Anyway, thanks as always!

OK! As I'm sure is not uncommon, life got in the way a bit but I'm back at it and moving into high gear with this studio build. As an added detail, my wife is expecting our first child in mid-March, so I am under a (perhaps unrealistic) timeline and it's crucial that I get as much of this done as possible before the baby arrives. Wish me luck! So, at this point, we have decided on the broad strokes of how the basement will be laid out, and thus roughly how much space is "mine". It will be somewhat less than 250 ft2, but still a pretty decent size, and there's not much I can do about it at this point. There are some very major issues that I need to address as I move into the actual plan and design, not least of which is just the physical limitations of the space, especially with needed supports, HVAC ducting, etc. Below are some pics of this super creepy basement, which will give an idea of what I'm up against. Basic dimensions are about 12'x15', but with some nooks and crannies that will add space and hopefully get it over 200 ft2. Here are the questions I'm trying to answer as I move on to the next steps (some I have partially answered by looking elsewhere on the forum, but I'm including just to be totally sure - any info, links to other explanations, help, guidance, warnings, etc., is all super appreciated!): 1. With an inside out ceiling, how much of a concern is it to cover up existing wiring that is between the joists of the floor above the basement? It will be basically impossible to ever get up there without partially destroying my beautiful ceiling. I'm being lobbied to do a drop ceiling with acoustic tiles for easy access but that seems comically inadequate to me. 2. For the existing floor on "my ceiling" - am I ok to install as much insulation as I can fit in between all of the wires between the joists? Don't think it's an option to remove the wiring. And should I try to cram pieces of drywall under the floor boards (above wiring and between joists)? 3. HVAC...hoo boy. This is a basement studio, but I'm in Atlanta so keeping it cool in the summer and warm in the winter is key. Reading around the site, I'm not clear how possible it is to tap into the existing system. We are having HVAC people come in a few weeks to do the work for the rest of the basement, so I need to figure out what to tell them. The plan is to have them run the duct work to the places it needs to go in the basement (studio but also spare bedroom, bathroom, and "living area"), and then we stick it in the walls when they are built. For my room, is this even possible? I am also going to have them run the ducts that have to go through my studio to be as high and to the sides as possible, and I'm planning to box them in. I'm still figuring this out, but my thought would be to put in the intake (correct word? Basically what the contractor is running to get air into the studio) the outer leaf, build the silencing system on both leaves, and then into the room. Should I have two vents into the studio? It's important to note that I will rarely be in the room for more than 4-5 hours in a session, and usually with only two people, but I want to be comfortable and safe. And I've read that I need exhaust too, which they are not planning on doing. Should I get an exhaust fan like one would use in a bathroom (maybe more heavy duty) and vent that outside, with silencer boxes? I don't think mini split or any other dedicated system is an option, for financial and lady-related reasons. 4. Structural issues - we will be running a header (maybe two) similar to the one in the picture across my room, which is unavoidable. Is it ok/doable to do my inside-out ceiling and basically just build it so it doesn't touch that and boxes around it? There will be low head room where that happens, but I don't think I have any other options. 5. Flooring - seems like I'm seeing that just leaving the concrete floor alone is my best bet, or at least ok. That's appealing since there's so much other work, but it's a pretty rough floor and certainly doesn't look nice. Is it worth thinking about installing a floor, like wood or cork? Update: I'm leaning pretty heavily towards cork at this point. 6. Green Glue vs OSI SC-175 - apologies if there is a clear explanation on this but I haven't been able to find it. Is it worth it to go with Green Glue? Seems not too bad to buy a 5 gallon bucket and the refillable caulk gun, but maybe that's a nightmare too? Green Glue only between layers of drywall and OSI for all other sealing? Update: I think I found that's the answer - Green Glue "compound" between drywall layers, and OSI or GG "sealant" for all cracks but would like to be sure. 7. Just to make sure - if I'm doing double walls for the two leaf system, is it ok for the outer wall to be fastened to the floor joists above, as long as my room is not? I'm hoping and assuming so, since those walls will be shared with other rooms, and will be partially built to provide structural support. 8. Is it worth it to soffit/flush mount JBL LSR305s? Should I get a subwoofer? Would that be flush mounted? Or better off buying more high end monitors? Update: pretty sure I'm going with Adam A7X based on positive comments elsewhere. How important would it then be to go further and get the matching subwoofer, especially for hip hop production? Planning to flush/soffit mount if at all possible. I'm hoping this covers enough for me to get the basic layout going, and as always, any help would be greatly appreciated. Feeling daunted but hopeful that I can do this!

As an added detail, my wife is expecting our first child in mid-March, so I am under a (perhaps unrealistic) timeline and it's crucial that I get as much of this done as possible before the baby arrives. Wish me luck!

Congratulations!

1. With an inside out ceiling, how much of a concern is it to cover up existing wiring that is between the joists of the floor above the basement? It will be basically impossible to ever get up there without partially destroying my beautiful ceiling. I'm being lobbied to do a drop ceiling with acoustic tiles for easy access but that seems comically inadequate to me.

Well, you can't physically push wood up against the wiring, but you CAN cover it without concern. It's no different than putting drywall up on your walls that have wiring run through them. Realistically, you should never have to access the wiring. If you do go with a dropped ceiling with acoustic tiles, kiss your isolation goodbye.

2. For the existing floor on "my ceiling" - am I ok to install as much insulation as I can fit in between all of the wires between the joists? Don't think it's an option to remove the wiring. And should I try to cram pieces of drywall under the floor boards (above wiring and between joists)?

I wouldn't say to install "as much insulation" as you can. Rather, completely fill it without compressing the insulation. It's a pain, but you can make cuts in the insulation batts that you can slide the wiring into. Yes, put drywall up on the bottom side of your subfloor. This is probably going to be one of the worst parts of your build as it's all over head work where you may get frustrated due to your obstacles.

3. HVAC...hoo boy. This is a basement studio, but I'm in Atlanta so keeping it cool in the summer and warm in the winter is key. Reading around the site, I'm not clear how possible it is to tap into the existing system. We are having HVAC people come in a few weeks to do the work for the rest of the basement, so I need to figure out what to tell them. The plan is to have them run the duct work to the places it needs to go in the basement (studio but also spare bedroom, bathroom, and "living area"), and then we stick it in the walls when they are built. For my room, is this even possible? I am also going to have them run the ducts that have to go through my studio to be as high and to the sides as possible, and I'm planning to box them in. I'm still figuring this out, but my thought would be to put in the intake (correct word? Basically what the contractor is running to get air into the studio) the outer leaf, build the silencing system on both leaves, and then into the room. Should I have two vents into the studio? It's important to note that I will rarely be in the room for more than 4-5 hours in a session, and usually with only two people, but I want to be comfortable and safe. And I've read that I need exhaust too, which they are not planning on doing. Should I get an exhaust fan like one would use in a bathroom (maybe more heavy duty) and vent that outside, with silencer boxes? I don't think mini split or any other dedicated system is an option, for financial and lady-related reasons.

So, you have a few weeks to figure out all of your requirements so you can tell the HVAC company what's up. Basically, it MIGHT be possible to use your existing system. The hurdle is that your room will probably require a lot more "attention" from your air handler unit than the rest of your home. While the rest of your home is comfortable, you might be sweating your ass off in your room. Or freezing. So, how do you get your furnace or air conditioner to turn on to condition your room without affecting the rest of your home? One answer would be zoning. However, from the looks of your existing system, it may be assembled as a spider duct system. The would make zoning a major overhaul. Also, a major determining factor to whether zoning could be an option would be whether or not you have a multiple stage, variable furnace. Without this, your fan won't be able to wind up or down depending on the pressure of the system (which would be over-changing with motorized dampers). Furthermore, you need to figure out if your unit is actually rated with the correct BTU for your house plus your extremely needy music room! IF everything works against you and you can't use your existing system, a cheaper (still not cheap) solution would be to install a designated air handler unit. You can get all sorts of different types, but for space saving, you could maybe get a vertical air handler unit. It looks basically like a furnace and is a ducted system. The downside to ducted systems is that they require the full CFM to pass through the silencer boxes. This means bigger silencer boxes. This could mean eating into your already small room room or space around your room. It also means larger ductwork, period. You do not need a separate inline fan for this type of setup as the air handler fan would be moving your air. The more expensive option would be a ductless mini-split. It would only require ductwork passing ~30% of the full CFM as it would only be replacing stale air with fresh air. This means smaller silencer boxes and smaller ductwork throughout. It does however mean a larger condenser unit on the wall. This design would require an inline fan to move your air.

4. Structural issues - we will be running a header (maybe two) similar to the one in the picture across my room, which is unavoidable. Is it ok/doable to do my inside-out ceiling and basically just build it so it doesn't touch that and boxes around it? There will be low head room where that happens, but I don't think I have any other options.

Until we see a SketchUp model to show exactly what you mean, it's impossible to give you a yes or no answer.

5. Flooring - seems like I'm seeing that just leaving the concrete floor alone is my best bet, or at least ok. That's appealing since there's so much other work, but it's a pretty rough floor and certainly doesn't look nice. Is it worth thinking about installing a floor, like wood or cork? Update: I'm leaning pretty heavily towards cork at this point.

You could get self levelling compound to fix up the concrete in your room and then paint or epoxy it. Otherwise, you can install any type of hard flooring you want (vinyl, linoleum, hardwood, etc).

6. Green Glue vs OSI SC-175 - apologies if there is a clear explanation on this but I haven't been able to find it. Is it worth it to go with Green Glue? Seems not too bad to buy a 5 gallon bucket and the refillable caulk gun, but maybe that's a nightmare too? Green Glue only between layers of drywall and OSI for all other sealing? Update: I think I found that's the answer - Green Glue "compound" between drywall layers, and OSI or GG "sealant" for all cracks but would like to be sure.

You did find your answer. There is no substitute for GG Compound, but there is for GG Sealant. I've never used OSI before so I can't say if it's awesome or not. You'll have to buy a small tube and test it out. As long as it stays flexible, seals well and is easy to use, it should be fine. Just follow the same rules as the GG Sealant and apply two coats.

7. Just to make sure - if I'm doing double walls for the two leaf system, is it ok for the outer wall to be fastened to the floor joists above, as long as my room is not? I'm hoping and assuming so, since those walls will be shared with other rooms, and will be partially built to provide structural support.

Your outer wall should be a part of the rest of your home, so yes, fasten it to the joists above. Make sure your outer layer is a sealed unit with no weak spots. The entire thing must have the same surface density as your minimum requirement. Example: Say you have some tin duct work in between your joists. Those have to be surrounded with insulation and then covered with MDF or drywall.

8. Is it worth it to soffit/flush mount JBL LSR305s? Should I get a subwoofer? Would that be flush mounted? Or better off buying more high end monitors? Update: pretty sure I'm going with Adam A7X based on positive comments elsewhere. How important would it then be to go further and get the matching subwoofer, especially for hip hop production? Planning to flush/soffit mount if at all possible.

Soffit/flush mounting ANY speaker is worth it. Speakers that aren't mounted that way introduce an abundance of issues. A common method of soffit design includes designing a replaceable speaker module. This would allow you to change your speakers without completely ripping your front wall apart. I haven't looked at the frequency response of those JBL, but there is a good chance you would need a subwoofer. Subwoofers have been soffit mounted, but I've rarely seen it. Typically, near the end of your room tuning, you would find the place for your subwoofer. It would be tough to design a mounting system for it at the beginning of your design phase.

I'm hoping this covers enough for me to get the basic layout going, and as always, any help would be greatly appreciated. Feeling daunted but hopeful that I can do this!

I think you should face the fact that you might not have your room completed by the time your baby comes. I'm not sure how much free time you have between now and then, but you have a lot of studying to do and a lot of things to figure out. After that, you need to design your basement/room in as much detail as you can. This includes drawing up any part of your basement that has anything studio-related going through it. That would include fresh air intake for example. Or, electrical. Not only will you need to have everything 100% modelled so that you don't over look any important details, you will need clear/precise drawings for your building permits. Keep us posted! Greg

Thank you very much for the reply! This board really is such an incredible resource, and I really appreciate all the help.

Congratulations!

Thanks!

Well, you can't physically push wood up against the wiring, but you CAN cover it without concern. It's no different than putting drywall up on your walls that have wiring run through them. Realistically, you should never have to access the wiring. If you do go with a dropped ceiling with acoustic tiles, kiss your isolation goodbye.

Good deal, that's what I was thinking, and it makes sense. If we ever have to access that wiring, we'll deal with it then, but it seems very unlikely.

I wouldn't say to install "as much insulation" as you can. Rather, completely fill it without compressing the insulation. It's a pain, but you can make cuts in the insulation batts that you can slide the wiring into. Yes, put drywall up on the bottom side of your subfloor. This is probably going to be one of the worst parts of your build as it's all over head work where you may get frustrated due to your obstacles.

Yeah, that's going to be a real pain. What kind of insulation do you think would be best for this particular task? And I'm having trouble understanding how I would make the cuts - like cut a groove in the places where the wires would go? And for the drywall, should I just screw it to the subfloor between the joists? And should I do two layers and Green Glue/seal it? Assuming so but that doesn't sound like much fun :)

So, you have a few weeks to figure out all of your requirements so you can tell the HVAC company what's up. Basically, it MIGHT be possible to use your existing system. The hurdle is that your room will probably require a lot more "attention" from your air handler unit than the rest of your home. While the rest of your home is comfortable, you might be sweating your ass off in your room. Or freezing. So, how do you get your furnace or air conditioner to turn on to condition your room without affecting the rest of your home? One answer would be zoning. However, from the looks of your existing system, it may be assembled as a spider duct system. The would make zoning a major overhaul. Also, a major determining factor to whether zoning could be an option would be whether or not you have a multiple stage, variable furnace. Without this, your fan won't be able to wind up or down depending on the pressure of the system (which would be over-changing with motorized dampers). Furthermore, you need to figure out if your unit is actually rated with the correct BTU for your house plus your extremely needy music room! IF everything works against you and you can't use your existing system, a cheaper (still not cheap) solution would be to install a designated air handler unit. You can get all sorts of different types, but for space saving, you could maybe get a vertical air handler unit. It looks basically like a furnace and is a ducted system. The downside to ducted systems is that they require the full CFM to pass through the silencer boxes. This means bigger silencer boxes. This could mean eating into your already small room room or space around your room. It also means larger ductwork, period. You do not need a separate inline fan for this type of setup as the air handler fan would be moving your air. The more expensive option would be a ductless mini-split. It would only require ductwork passing ~30% of the full CFM as it would only be replacing stale air with fresh air. This means smaller silencer boxes and smaller ductwork throughout. It does however mean a larger condenser unit on the wall. This design would require an inline fan to move your air.

OK, I think this is where my focus needs to be at this stage. I'm not sure what kind of system it is, but the furnace and AC unit are both brand new. If this helps, this is the description from the original quote less than a year ago: "complete Daikin 2-ton Air Conditioning and 92% AFUE Heating System (14+ SEER)". So should I ask the contractor if zoning is possible and if it's a multiple stage, variable furnace? And if it's rated adequately? Obviously I'm really hoping I can use the existing system, but it is also super important that the studio is comfortable, and that it doesn't mess up the rest of the house. I'm just not sure what I need to do to figure that out.

Until we see a SketchUp model to show exactly what you mean, it's impossible to give you a yes or no answer.

Gotcha. Still working on that - I'm still not great at the program but I'll get at least a basic model up as soon as I can.

You could get self levelling compound to fix up the concrete in your room and then paint or epoxy it. Otherwise, you can install any type of hard flooring you want (vinyl, linoleum, hardwood, etc).

Just to be clear, is cork ok? I don't think I want to try to fix up the concrete, because I don't think I could make it look great, and I have experience doing cork floors. Hardwood is an option too but I was under the impression that cork would be mildly beneficial acoustically.

You did find your answer. There is no substitute for GG Compound, but there is for GG Sealant. I've never used OSI before so I can't say if it's awesome or not. You'll have to buy a small tube and test it out. As long as it stays flexible, seals well and is easy to use, it should be fine. Just follow the same rules as the GG Sealant and apply two coats.

Awesome, thanks!

Your outer wall should be a part of the rest of your home, so yes, fasten it to the joists above. Make sure your outer layer is a sealed unit with no weak spots. The entire thing must have the same surface density as your minimum requirement. Example: Say you have some tin duct work in between your joists. Those have to be surrounded with insulation and then covered with MDF or drywall.

I think I understand this, and it will make a lot more sense once I get a Sketchup model going. But by outer layer, do you mean the interior walls of the other rooms, or the area between the studs that would be facing the studio. My understanding is that I would be framing two walls with a small air gap in between.

Soffit/flush mounting ANY speaker is worth it. Speakers that aren't mounted that way introduce an abundance of issues. A common method of soffit design includes designing a replaceable speaker module. This would allow you to change your speakers without completely ripping your front wall apart. I haven't looked at the frequency response of those JBL, but there is a good chance you would need a subwoofer. Subwoofers have been soffit mounted, but I've rarely seen it. Typically, near the end of your room tuning, you would find the place for your subwoofer. It would be tough to design a mounting system for it at the beginning of your design phase.

Understood. I've seen the replaceable speaker module elsewhere here, and that's definitely attractive. I'm also just looking for an excuse to get more expensive speakers :) But even if I go with the Adams, who knows if one day I want different ones, and then it would be nice to be able to just swap them out.

I think you should face the fact that you might not have your room completed by the time your baby comes. I'm not sure how much free time you have between now and then, but you have a lot of studying to do and a lot of things to figure out. After that, you need to design your basement/room in as much detail as you can. This includes drawing up any part of your basement that has anything studio-related going through it. That would include fresh air intake for example. Or, electrical. Not only will you need to have everything 100% modelled so that you don't over look any important details, you will need clear/precise drawings for your building permits.

I am going to do my best, but you are totally right. I've done enough remodeling work to know that this is a borderline impossible timeline. I'm also hoping that with planning I can figure out what I can leave for later, while still making it usable for the short term. But that's for another day.

Keep us posted!

This I can promise! Thanks again for any and all help!!! -Dan

Dan,

What kind of insulation do you think would be best for this particular task?

Cheap fluffy pink insulation would be fine and be the most cost effective. Rockwool Safe'n'Sound would work well too, but be more expensive. Each have their pros and cons when it comes to how easy it is to work with.

And I'm having trouble understanding how I would make the cuts - like cut a groove in the places where the wires would go?

Not even a groove, but literally just make a cut. Here's a picture of Rockwool I put in the wall between my boys room and the bathroom he and my daughter share. Not perfect, but there was lots of stuff to work around :?

And for the drywall, should I just screw it to the subfloor between the joists?

No, hold it up using cleats like this:

And should I do two layers and Green Glue/seal it?

Depending on how thick your subfloor is, you might be able to get away with one layer of 5/8" drywall. Seal every crack of the subfloor with sealant (flexible silicone or GG Sealant), cut your beef up drywall to size, apply the recommended amount of GG Compound to it, then put it up and hold it there with cleats. Then go around the perimeter of the drywall with sealant (caulk and if necessary, backer rod too). Always apply two coats of caulk/sealant. For your final layer of caulk, move the cleats so that you ensure you seal the entire perimeter well.

Assuming so but that doesn't sound like much fun :)

Yep, this will probably be one of the most messy, exhausting, and frustrating parts of the build.

I'm not sure what kind of system it is, but the furnace and AC unit are both brand new. If this helps, this is the description from the original quote less than a year ago: "complete Daikin 2-ton Air Conditioning and 92% AFUE Heating System (14+ SEER)".

It's good information to have, but it doesn't answer any questions we have at this stage of the game.

So should I ask the contractor if zoning is possible and if it's a multiple stage, variable furnace? And if it's rated adequately?

Correct

Obviously I'm really hoping I can use the existing system, but it is also super important that the studio is comfortable, and that it doesn't mess up the rest of the house. I'm just not sure what I need to do to figure that out.

Look up HVAC in the search on the forum and read as much as you can about it. Also, Build It Like The Pros book has some great information. Come back to us with some questions, and we'll answer them. It would be way to crazy to write a book here explaining it to you when appropriate books already exist.

Gotcha. Still working on that - I'm still not great at the program but I'll get at least a basic model up as soon as I can.

Google: - inferencing - making components - using layers That should get you going well ;-)

Just to be clear, is cork ok? I don't think I want to try to fix up the concrete, because I don't think I could make it look great, and I have experience doing cork floors. Hardwood is an option too but I was under the impression that cork would be mildly beneficial acoustically.

I'm personally not familiar with cork flooring, so I can't comment whether it's a good option or not.

I think I understand this, and it will make a lot more sense once I get a Sketchup model going. But by outer layer, do you mean the interior walls of the other rooms, or the area between the studs that would be facing the studio. My understanding is that I would be framing two walls with a small air gap in between.

Here are two pictures to clarify:

Understood. I've seen the replaceable speaker module elsewhere here, and that's definitely attractive. I'm also just looking for an excuse to get more expensive speakers :) But even if I go with the Adams, who knows if one day I want different ones, and then it would be nice to be able to just swap them out.

:thu:

I am going to do my best, but you are totally right. I've done enough remodeling work to know that this is a borderline impossible timeline. I'm also hoping that with planning I can figure out what I can leave for later, while still making it usable for the short term. But that's for another day.

Read this: http://www.roletech.net/books/HandbookAcoustics.pdf Trust me, after you read this, your design will go together nice and fast. If you don't read it, you'll be staring at SketchUp wondering what to do next. Then you'll post pictures of your design here, probably get told what to change, then you'll spend forever re-doing things over and over and over. If you study the handbook first, you will save a lot of time. Don't get overwhelmed by the number of pages. The last chunk is just a bibliography, glossary, appendix, and index. The book is very well written and only has a few dry chapters.

This I can promise! Thanks again for any and all help!!!

No problem! Greg

Greg - thank you for the response!

Cheap fluffy pink insulation would be fine and be the most cost effective. Rockwool Safe'n'Sound would work well too, but be more expensive. Each have their pros and cons when it comes to how easy it is to work with.

Perfect, thanks.

Not even a groove, but literally just make a cut. Here's a picture of Rockwool I put in the wall between my boys room and the bathroom he and my daughter share. Not perfect, but there was lots of stuff to work around :?

Got it, that will be a chore but I can handle that.

No, hold it up using cleats like this:

OK, that makes sense. Just to be clear, since my joists are just wood boards, I would just screw the cleats into the joists, correct?

Depending on how thick your subfloor is, you might be able to get away with one layer of 5/8" drywall. Seal every crack of the subfloor with sealant (flexible silicone or GG Sealant), cut your beef up drywall to size, apply the recommended amount of GG Compound to it, then put it up and hold it there with cleats. Then go around the perimeter of the drywall with sealant (caulk and if necessary, backer rod too). Always apply two coats of caulk/sealant. For your final layer of caulk, move the cleats so that you ensure you seal the entire perimeter well.

The sound traveling between the basement and the room above is one of the biggest concerns. I think I'm going to attempt two layers of 5/8" drywall, with your recommendations for sealing and Green Glue.

Yep, this will probably be one of the most messy, exhausting, and frustrating parts of the build.

This is gonna suck :)

It's good information to have, but it doesn't answer any questions we have at this stage of the game.

Correct

Look up HVAC in the search on the forum and read as much as you can about it. Also, Build It Like The Pros book has some great information. Come back to us with some questions, and we'll answer them. It would be way to crazy to write a book here explaining it to you when appropriate books already exist.

Got it, definitely not expecting a book to be written on my behalf. It's just that this is one of the parts that I don't understand very well, and I've read a bunch on the site and elsewhere. I'll keep doing research and will talk with the contractor and report back with better formed ideas and more information.

Google: - inferencing - making components - using layers That should get you going well ;-)

Nice, thanks! I did get pretty far through a tutorial building a shed, so that's something! But I'm a bit of a perfectionist and I could see myself getting very frustrated trying to model this whole studio without knowing the program well enough. But hopefully I'll have something to post fairly soon.

I'm personally not familiar with cork flooring, so I can't comment whether it's a good option or not.

Gotcha, thanks. I'll look around to see what I can figure out, or if anyone else has any opinions, please feel free to chime in :)

Here are two pictures to clarify:

Thanks, that helps. Will definitely keep that in mind when doing the Sketchup design.

:thu:

:thu:

Read this: http://www.roletech.net/books/HandbookAcoustics.pdf Trust me, after you read this, your design will go together nice and fast. If you don't read it, you'll be staring at SketchUp wondering what to do next. Then you'll post pictures of your design here, probably get told what to change, then you'll spend forever re-doing things over and over and over. If you study the handbook first, you will save a lot of time. Don't get overwhelmed by the number of pages. The last chunk is just a bibliography, glossary, appendix, and index. The book is very well written and only has a few dry chapters.

Wowsers. I made it through about 20 pages last night but I must confess science and physics is not my strong suit. But I'll keep at it, and just bought Build it Like the Pros too. As if my brain wasn't swimming enough already trying to figure this all out :) Anyway, profuse thanks...lots of work ahead but I'm still feeling hopeful! -Dan

Just to be clear, since my joists are just wood boards, I would just screw the cleats into the joists, correct?

Nailing is easier and faster, but you could use screws if you want. Something that concerns me about your current situation. You have small joists spanning long distances, supported mid-span on metal jacks and wooden. How do you plan to deal with that? Obviously, those posts are going to be a big issue! What are your plans there? You can't just take them out, and it's hard to see how you could keep them there, too.... Hmmmm...

Got it, definitely not expecting a book to be written on my behalf. It's just that this is one of the parts that I don't understand very well, and I've read a bunch on the site and elsewhere. I'll keep doing research and will talk with the contractor and report back with better formed ideas and more information

HVAC: Basically, the issue is doing some math to start with! Figure out how much are volume you need to move through the studio and cool/heat/dehumidify in CFM (CFM = cubic feet per minute), and how much of that needs to be dumped overboard and replaced with fresh air. Once you have those two numbers, you can check that against your existing basement system, to see if there's enough capacity in it to be able to handle that. That's the first sanity check. If your existing system doesn't have the capacity, then you'll either need to upgrade it (big job, big money), or create an entirely new, separate system to handle just the studio (slightly smaller job, by about 5 minutes, slightly less money, by about 28 cents... :) ). Second sanity check comes later.... Next step is to figure out, based on the above CFM data, your duct sizes, based on the air flow speed (not rate! Speed. Don't confuse them), in FPM (FPM = Feet Per Minute). You must ensure that the speed (or more correctly, velocity) is less than 300 FPM at the registers, so figure your register size based on that. Then work backwards, to figure the sizes of your silencer boxes, assuming that the cross-sectional area needs to suddenly change to at least twice/half the area, in at least a couple of places. Then, based on all of the above, estimate the static pressure drop that your system will create. Now for the second sanity check: if you decided that your current system CAN handle the flow rate for your studio, now you must also check if it can handle that static pressure. Right now, it is handling a certain amount of static pressure from the rest of the house, and it has a limit, a maximum rated static pressure that it can handle. If adding your studio system static pressure would take it past that limit, then you cannot use the existing system, and we get back to the same comment as before: "If your existing system doesn't have the capacity, then you'll either need to upgrade it (big job, big money), or create an entirely new, separate system to handle just the studio (slightly smaller job, by about 5 minutes, slightly less money, by about 28 cents... :) )." That covers the actual air movement issues: Then there's the heat handling issue to deal with as well: You need to figure out what heat load your studio will produce, in terms of "sensible heat load" and "latent heat load". Sensible heat load means just the amount of pure heat put out by your gear, your lights, your equipment, your instruments, and the human bodies that will be inside the room PLUS the heat that will be in the replacement fresh air that you bring in from the outdoors. The "latent heat" is related to the humidity in all of the air, that needs to be removed. The AHU (Air Handler Unit) that does the actual cooling of the air, has to first deal with the latent heat load, BEFORE it can deal with the sensible heat load. This is something that a lot of people don't get: They figure out that the total heat put out by all the gear, lights and people is, for example, 12,000 BTU/Hr, so they buy a system capable of cooling 12,000 BTU/Hr... but it then runs full time, at maximum speed, and hardly seems to cool the air at all! Because they forget the humidity: There could easily be another 4,000 BTU/Hr of latent heat load in the humidity, and the AHU cannot cool the air until it has first removed that humidity, so it spends 4,000 of the 12,000 that it has just removing humidity, then only has 8,000 left to cool the air. And of course, that's way short of what is needed. So the room stays warm and muggy and unpleasant, even though the HVAC is running full power. Some people think that, OK, if that's the case, then just get a unit that has 36,000 BTU/Hr capacity, to be sure that there's plenty of extra to deal with humidity... but that's silly! To start with, the unit will draw many times the amount of electrical current that is actually needed, so you need to over-size your wiring, circuit breakers, meter, etc., to handle that, and then the unit will end up running in short, infrequent bursts, and you'll be blasted with powerful hurricanes of cold air for just brief periods, followed by the unit just idling along for a very long time before it kicks in again... so you get wild swings in temperature and humidity. What you need to do, is to "right-size" the unit, so that it can handle the "worst-case" situation of full occupancy with hard-jamming musicians, lots of gear, lots of lights, on the hottest day in mid summer, with high humidity, and not quite reach it's maximum capacity: it can still cycle on and off, but with long "on" cycles and short "off" cycles: maybe 80% to 90% duty cycle, when it is running at maximum speed. Then it will run at much lower speeds, and shorter "on" cycles, on a cool evening with low humidity, when there's just you in the studio, sitting quietly, but it still won't be doing the "sudden cold blasts" thing. In other words, you need to do the math to make sure that you size the cooling capacity of the AHU correctly in BTU/Hr, AND ALSO the air moving capacity, in CFM, AND ALSO the static pressure handling capacity. If you do all that, and figure that the normal AHU units with the right BTU and CFM ratings just can't handle the static pressure from your system, then you might need to move up to "high static" units, that are specifically designed to deal with higher static pressure. Or re-design your duct system and silencer boxes so that the produce less static pressure...

But I'm a bit of a perfectionist and I could see myself getting very frustrated trying to model this whole studio without knowing the program well enough. But hopefully I'll have something to post fairly soon.

SkethUp is great for modeling studios. But it does have its quirks, and it takes a while to figure your way around them. However, once you have done that, you'll feel the power of it, and the ability to do almost anything you want I have designed some pretty complex studios, in great detail, using SketchUp, and it does the job well. It bogs down on speed once the model gets to a certain size, but there are ways of dealing with that too. Key issues are: As soon as you create any geometry, immediately put all of that into a "component", and name it! Name each component, using a logical, simple naming system. Then put it on a "layer". Also use a logical consistent naming system for your layers. Layers just control visibility: that's all. You can put a component on a layer, then group it with others into a DIFFERENT component, with a DIFFERENT name, and put that one on ANOTHER layer. so you can have four walls, each on a layer of its own, with the layers called "CR: Wall - Left", and "CR: Wall - Right", and "CR: Wall - Front" and " "CR: Wall - Back", then you can select all of those at once, and create a new layer called "CR: Walls: ALL" for them. That way, you can make individual walls invisible if you the happen to be obscuring your view of something, and you can also make them all invisible at once if you need to. You can have a whole hierarchy of layers and components like this, many levels deep: For example, you can have a component called "CR: ALL", assigned to a layer of the same name, and inside that one have your "CR: Walls: ALL", as well as your "CR: Ceiling: ALL" and "CR: Floor: ALL" and your "CR: Acoustic Treatment: ALL", then you can control the visibility of your control room in various ways. You can also go down to even lower levels, such as having each wall built up from other lower-level components and layers, such as "MATERIALS: Framing: 2x4" and "MATERIALS: Framing: 2x6" and "MATERIALS: Sheathing: Drywall" and "MATERIALS: Sheathing: OSB" and "MATERIALS: Insulation", etc., giving you even more control. So by turning off the "sheathing", you can see the framing inside ALL of your walls, and then also turn off JUST the left wall, to get a better view of something inside. This is where the true power of SketchUp resides: the ability to group components and assign them to layers, then create "scenes" to look at them. A "scene" is just a camera viewpoint combined with a set of things that are visible/not visible. You can then set up many such scenes in a sequence, and create an animated "walk-through" or "fly-through" of your studio, turning on and off various parts as the sequence advances. Spend the time to learn it! It is VERY powerful. That's how I do ALL of my designs these days.

Gotcha, thanks. I'll look around to see what I can figure out, or if anyone else has any opinions, please feel free to chime in

Cork flooring is fine, but I have heard that it doesn't wear too well over time, and you'll still need to level your slab first, even if you use cork. It doesn't remove the need for leveling.

I made it through about 20 pages last night but I must confess science and physics is not my strong suit.

MHoA (the book that Greg linked you to, "Master Handbook of Acoustics"), is very light on math. It just touches the basics of what you need to know for acoustics. It's not complex. If you want complex acoustic math, then try "Architectural Acoustics", by Marshall Long! Also a great book, but a little more math... or maybe "Acoustic Absorbers and Diffusers" by Cox and D'Antonio... The math can get a lot more complex that MHoA.... :)

But I'll keep at it, and just bought Build it Like the Pros too. As if my brain wasn't swimming enough already trying to figure this all out

If your brain is not swimming, then there's a BIG problem! :) You aren't working hard enough at it, or you aren't delving deep enough.... "Swimming Brain Syndrome" goes along with acoustic design. Once you have caught that disease, there's no cure, and no going back... it never goes away! The further you advance, the more your brain swims... But it's a good thing, actually! - Stuart -

Stuart! Thank you for chiming in!

Nailing is easier and faster, but you could use screws if you want.

Probably should have said "fasten" - I just bought a framing gun so I'll be nailing to my heart's content :)

Something that concerns me about your current situation. You have small joists spanning long distances, supported mid-span on metal jacks and wooden. How do you plan to deal with that? Obviously, those posts are going to be a big issue! What are your plans there? You can't just take them out, and it's hard to see how you could keep them there, too.... Hmmmm...

Yes, that's one of my big concerns. It's hard to explain without showing, but the current plan is to replace the metal jacks with wood posts (probably 6x6), roughly where they are, and span that with a wood post header (probably 4x8). The posts would be built into the outer wall of the two leaf system, and then I would be dropping my inside out ceiling to accommodate the header. It's not ideal but I don't know how else to do it. Head room will be very low there, but I'm trying to lay the room out so that it's not super heavily trafficked. Maybe put gear or amps or something under it. I think realistically it will be just over 6' high there. Does that make sense?

HVAC: Basically...

Great information, thank you so much. I'm reading that chapter in the Rod Gervais book as I type. At this point I don't know the answers to these questions, so I'm trying not to worry or speculate. Hoping to use the existing system, but if I have to spend more to get something that works, I will do that. I will post more info as soon as I can.

SkecthUp is great for modeling studios...

Awesome, thanks for that too! I've used it enough to see the power, and the quirks, so just need more time under my belt. I'm definitely planning on using it as much as I can, and fortunately I have several weeks still until the main building needs to start. Hopefully that's enough time to get at least a workable design, and the first few weeks of building will probably be stuff like treating the ceiling, demolition, etc...point being having a done design is definitely the goal before I do anything I can't un-do, so I will do my best :)

Cork flooring is fine, but I have heard that it doesn't wear too well over time, and you'll still need to level your slab first, even if you use cork. It doesn't remove the need for leveling.

Sweet, thanks! I may end up going with wood, we'll see. Cork is a nice material, I like the look of it, and it's nice under foot, but yeah, it won't last forever. It can actually be sanded and resealed though, so that's nice. But this is far from the top of my list, I just wanted to make sure putting a floor in was ok, and that cork isn't a known no-go. And yes, we'll figure out leveling and will install a plywood subfloor, so I think it will be ok.

MHoA (the book that Greg linked you to, "Master Handbook of Acoustics"), is very light on math. It just touches the basics of what you need to know for acoustics. It's not complex. If you want complex acoustic math, then try "Architectural Acoustics", by Marshall Long! Also a great book, but a little more math... or maybe "Acoustic Absorbers and Diffusers" by Cox and D'Antonio... The math can get a lot more complex that MHoA.... :)

I hear ya...but I'd say one man's "light on math" is apparently another man's "WTF is a coefficient again?" :) But I'll get through it, and am already learning a ton from "Build it Like the Pros" as well.

If your brain is not swimming, then there's a BIG problem! :) You aren't working hard enough at it, or you aren't delving deep enough.... "Swimming Brain Syndrome" goes along with acoustic design. Once you have caught that disease, there's no cure, and no going back... it never goes away! The further you advance, the more your brain swims... But it's a good thing, actually!

Finally, one problem I *don't* have! :D

If you want complex acoustic math, then try "Architectural Acoustics", by Marshall Long! Also a great book, but a little more math.

Thanks for sharing this! I'm excited to read it!

Yes, that's one of my big concerns. It's hard to explain without showing, but the current plan is to replace the metal jacks with wood posts (probably 6x6), roughly where they are, and span that with a wood post header (probably 4x8). The posts would be built into the outer wall of the two leaf system, and then I would be dropping my inside out ceiling to accommodate the header. It's not ideal but I don't know how else to do it. Head room will be very low there, but I'm trying to lay the room out so that it's not super heavily trafficked. Maybe put gear or amps or something under it. I think realistically it will be just over 6' high there. Does that make sense?

I think so. Your SketchUp design will clarify all of that for us.

Great information, thank you so much. I'm reading that chapter in the Rod Gervais book as I type. At this point I don't know the answers to these questions, so I'm trying not to worry or speculate. Hoping to use the existing system, but if I have to spend more to get something that works, I will do that. I will post more info as soon as I can.

I don't have revision 2 of Rods book, but version 1 doesn't mention silencer boxes, so you'll have to look them on the forum here.

Awesome, thanks for that too! I've used it enough to see the power, and the quirks, so just need more time under my belt. I'm definitely planning on using it as much as I can, and fortunately I have several weeks still until the main building needs to start. Hopefully that's enough time to get at least a workable design, and the first few weeks of building will probably be stuff like treating the ceiling, demolition, etc...point being having a done design is definitely the goal before I do anything I can't un-do, so I will do my best :)

You seem to be reading at a decent rate, and you have a grasp on SketchUp now. I'd say you have a good chance of having a layout completed in that time. From there, you could start the tedious beef-up process. But before any framing starts, make sure your design is 100% complete. I've been slowly digging away at my own design for 9 months and I'm still changing my framing at things get adjusted! Your soffit design alone could take weeks! Greg

I think so. Your SketchUp design will clarify all of that for us.

Cool, thanks. My father-in-law (who owns the home) is a carpenter too, so that will be helpful.

I don't have revision 2 of Rods book, but version 1 doesn't mention silencer boxes, so you'll have to look them on the forum here.

Revision 2 does have some info on silencer boxes, and I've read a bunch already on here. Gonna just keep researching and see what I can work out.

You seem to be reading at a decent rate, and you have a grasp on SketchUp now. I'd say you have a good chance of having a layout completed in that time. From there, you could start the tedious beef-up process. But before any framing starts, make sure your design is 100% complete. I've been slowly digging away at my own design for 9 months and I'm still changing my framing at things get adjusted! Your soffit design alone could take weeks!

I'm trying! And thanks for the words of wisdom...I read through most of your studio thread I believe, and it looks awesome!

OK, minor HVAC update, which is unfortunately still very incomplete but I'm on a bit of a roller coaster here trying to figure this out, and wanted to run a few things by y'all. I spoke with the contractor and he said zoning is not possible and that it's not a multiple stage, variable furnace. The AC unit is a 2 ton unit. The current plan is to only have a duct going into the studio room - no exhaust, and no fresh air. This plan was made with the contractor before we knew exactly what we were doing with the basement - basically just carving it up into rooms. Any thoughts are appreciated but I guess what I'm wondering now is a little bigger picture. I would say the vast majority of the time I am going to have two people in there writing and recording vocals, for 3-4 hours, once a week. The actual time that we are recording is much lower than the time we are writing and hanging out. I will be doing longer mixing sessions, but very rarely over 4-5 hours. The bathroom and (more importantly) beer fridge will be outside the room, so we will be opening up to the rest of the basement probably every hour or so. Am I in danger of making a terrible mistake to think that this would be sufficient for letting in fresh air and removing the stale air from the room, and that as long as the current system can adequately heat and cool the space I should be ok? I know I still have more math to do, but from what I can tell, we will be generating in the neighborhood of 8,500 btu in a normal session, which the contractor says should be no problem. I guess I also wonder if it would be possible to use a portable air conditioner if, for example, I had some people over to jam. I wouldn't care how much noise it makes, and that will happen so rarely that I don't want to factor that in to the room for normal use. Drumming would happen more frequently, but again, I feel like I could use a portable AC and/or a fan for those times. I could also run a dehumidifier in there while I'm not using the room, which will be like 95% of any given week. I apologize if this is moving backwards, but I feel really stuck on this and keep going back and forth with my lady because she already thinks I'm being insane about the whole project. The contractor is great but has no idea about studio needs or design. If I need to tell them to do something different, they will do it, but I'm worried about spending thousands of dollars and probably delaying a crucial part of the overall basement renovation over. And I still don't know what to tell them. I could also partially or fully close the vents, leave the doors open, etc. while the studio is not in use. If the answer is "quit whining, do more work, and do it right," then that's what I'll do...but the more I got back and forth over this, the more it just seems like getting heating and cooling from the existing system is the simplest solution, and then augment with portable AC/dehumidifiers/space heaters if it's a problem. Thanks as always and please be gentle :)

The current plan is to only have a duct going into the studio room - no exhaust, and no fresh air.

:shock: Think about that for a second: The studio is basically a hermetically sealed box: totally air-tight. And you are saying that there will just one duct coming in, with nothing going out.... Think it through... :) Firstly, why would air even decide to move through that one single duct, into your room? Can you blow through a straw if you are holding your finger over the far end? :lol: That's the situation: the duct is basically like a straw that COULD send air into your room, but since your room is a tightly sealed box, the air can't go in! It has no place to go. You MUST have a return duct! This is very, very basic, and I'm really surprised that your HVAC expert did not figure this out for himself... If there is no return duct, then there is no place for air to get out of the room, so it is impossible to put air into the room...

This plan was made with the contractor before we knew exactly what we were doing with the basement - basically just carving it up into rooms.

Normal rooms are not air-tight: there are gaps and cracks all over where air can leak, and normal rooms also usually have return registers somewhere, in the floor, wall, ceiling, door, etc.. Your studio CANNOT have gaps and cracks, and it cannot have ordinary return registers. It needs a proper return duct that goes through a silencer box, just like the supply duct.

I would say the vast majority of the time I am going to have two people in there writing and recording vocals, for 3-4 hours,

Figure out the O2 needs for 2 people working moderately, but more important figure out how much CO2 those two people will be expelling, and how much humidity. If there is no HVAC, then that CO2 and humidity cannot leave the room, so it builds up and up and up... as do the various other smells, odors, and other unpleasant things....

so we will be opening up to the rest of the basement probably every hour or so.

If you have a duct coming in, and you open the door, then there MIGHT be a return path through the doorway... but you cannot track and mix with the door open, and that won't properly control the levels anyway.

Am I in danger of making a terrible mistake to think that this would be sufficient for letting in fresh air and removing the stale air from the room, and that as long as the current system can adequately heat and cool the space I should be ok?

The answer is yes, you would be in danger of doing that.... :)

we will be generating in the neighborhood of 8,500 btu in a normal session, which the contractor says should be no problem

How much of that is latent heat, and how much is sensible heat? There's a difference...

I guess I also wonder if it would be possible to use a portable air conditioner if

Where would you run the exhaust line too? And where would the fresh air come from? Take a good look at how portable A/C units work.... DO you really want to be halting your sessions regularly so you can empty out the condensation bucket?

I wouldn't care how much noise it makes,

:) Try that in practice, and see how it works. That's all fine in theory, but what about practice? :lol:

Drumming would happen more frequently, but again, I feel like I could use a portable AC and/or a fan for those times.

How would those work with the door closed? And if the door is OPEN, then there's no isolation, and the acoustics are shot too....

I apologize if this is moving backwards

, :!: Yup...

The contractor is great but has no idea about studio needs or design.

... and therein lies your problem. Studios are rather different from ordinary houses, shops, schools, offices, etc.

the more it just seems like getting heating and cooling from the existing system is the simplest solution,

That's fine, as long as you don't plan to actually have PEOPLE in the room! :) People suck up oxygen. People generate CO2 and odors. People generate humidity. Heating and cooling does not deal with ANY of that. You need VENTILATION to deal with that. You need to move air through the room at a certain minimal rate, which depends on the size of the room, you need to dump a portion of that "moved" air overboard, sufficient to ensure that you are getting rid of the CO2 and odors fast enough, and you need to replace that "dumped" air with the same volume of fresh air. That is IN ADDITION to the heating and cooling. There's two parts to the story hear: One is the heating/cooling, the other is the ventilation. One without the other is no use. That's why it is called "HVAC" :)

Thanks as always and please be gentle

:thu: I tried Not sure if I succeeded.... - Stuart -

Oof :) I’m frustrated and anxious about this and probably should have held off on posting until I had some more research under my belt. Everything you say makes sense, and also makes clear that I have to keep figuring this out. The past week has been crazy but I can focus on this for the next days and hopefully post again soon.

:thu: I tried Not sure if I succeeded....

Sometimes the truth hurts :) you were great and I appreciate the reality check.

I’m frustrated and anxious about this and probably should have held off on posting until I had some more research under my belt. Everything you say makes sense, and also makes clear that I have to keep figuring this out. The past week has been crazy but I can focus on this for the next days and hopefully post again soon.

You were posting at just the right time. The reality check is what will get you an awesome studio in the end! Just keep slugging away and don't hesitate to ask questions. I think we all know the frustration when you can't find a simple answer after looking for like 6 hours. Don't give up. Greg

I really appreciate that, thank you :)

OK, obviously still trying to figure this out but having trouble with a couple of basic issues. 1. For "fresh air", should I actually have a vent to the outside, separate from my supply and return vents? The contractor said that the conditioned air coming in to the room is not "fresh" so I'm trying to figure out how that works. 2. For the return vent, should it be tied into the rest of the HVAC system, or should the studio air be dumped elsewhere? Does it matter? FWIW, one wall of my studio would be shared with an entrance-way with a door to the outside. This is only for storage, so in theory, I could get air from there, and dump the stale studio air into there, and it wouldn't be to a habitable space. Apologies again for the super basic questions, but I may have mentioned that this part of the build in particularly confusing to me :)

Fresh air is supposed to be fresh! :) Bringing in air from other rooms means that it isn't very fresh.... quite stale, actually. HVAC regulations in general frown on sucking air from one room into another, and also frown on dumping air from one room into another... Yes, the HVAC system generally recirculates most of the air through the house/office/school/mall/whatever, but at some point it needs to dump a certain percentage of that stale air to the outside, then bring in the same volume of "make-up" fresh air from the outside world. Houses used to be leaky enough that it wasn't such a big deal, but as regulations (and common sense) have tightened up on leakage for energy efficiency, there's more and more need for correct handling of fresh air intake and stale air dumping. Since a studio is the ultimate example of a totally sealed, "leakless" room, it takes this concept to the extreme... Do the math: figure out what volume of air you need to move through your room, based on the normal guidelines, then figure out what percentage of that needs to be fresh air intake / stale air exhaust, and work from there to figure out your flow velocities, duct sizes, silencer box dimensions, AHU air capacity, static pressure, etc. - Stuart -

1. For "fresh air", should I actually have a vent to the outside, separate from my supply and return vents? The contractor said that the conditioned air coming in to the room is not "fresh" so I'm trying to figure out how that works. 2. For the return vent, should it be tied into the rest of the HVAC system, or should the studio air be dumped elsewhere? Does it matter?

Check out this picture. It should answer your question: You should aim for between 25 and 30% fresh air into your room. In order to actually move that air though, you'd need inline fans. And on very hot or cold days, you'll be wasting a lot of conditioned air. That's where an HRV comes into the picture. It have fans AND it keeps most of your thermal energy inside your home. Sadly, they're quite expensive. But, personally I would rather spend the money and save the energy.

FWIW, one wall of my studio would be shared with an entrance-way with a door to the outside. This is only for storage, so in theory, I could get air from there, and dump the stale studio air into there, and it wouldn't be to a habitable space.

Dump stale air and get fresh air from outside. Period. Hopefully that helps! Greg

Thank you! That makes sense to me, I just want to make sure I'm not working from flawed premises.

Do the math: figure out what volume of air you need to move through your room, based on the normal guidelines, then figure out what percentage of that needs to be fresh air intake / stale air exhaust, and work from there to figure out your flow velocities, duct sizes, silencer box dimensions, AHU air capacity, static pressure, etc.

So I did *some* math...whether it's *the* math is my next step :) Here's what I have so far, from trying to find these calculations in other threads and Rod's book. If there is a comprehensive post somewhere, that would be very helpful, and I apologize if it's staring me in the face and I just haven't found it. Anyway... Caveat - I know these are relatively rough since I don't even have my layout done yet, but since the HVAC guys are coming next week, I need to figure it out. Even if it's telling them to hold off on my room, which I would greatly prefer not to do. But I think this is a pretty accurate ballpark, if that even makes sense :) So... CFM = 160, I believe. I did this by using 6 air changes an hour x 1600 cubic feet of air (200 ft2 of studio x 8 ft high) divided by 60 minutes. I saw in Rod's book that you need about 15 cfm per person (saw 22 on another post here) - am I understanding correctly that this would be the amount needed to dump overboard? So if I almost always have 2 people in the room, I would need to make up 30-44 CFM, or about 20-30%? From a few posts back:

HVAC: Basically, the issue is doing some math to start with! Figure out how much are volume you need to move through the studio and cool/heat/dehumidify in CFM (CFM = cubic feet per minute), and how much of that needs to be dumped overboard and replaced with fresh air. Once you have those two numbers, you can check that against your existing basement system, to see if there's enough capacity in it to be able to handle that. That's the first sanity check. If your existing system doesn't have the capacity, then you'll either need to upgrade it (big job, big money), or create an entirely new, separate system to handle just the studio (slightly smaller job, by about 5 minutes, slightly less money, by about 28 cents... :) )

So how would I check this against my current system? Ask the contractor if it can handle an additional 160 CFM? And if we add a return (tied into the existing system?), if it can remove 30-44 CFM? Also from a few posts back:

Second sanity check comes later.... Next step is to figure out, based on the above CFM data, your duct sizes, based on the air flow speed (not rate! Speed. Don't confuse them), in FPM (FPM = Feet Per Minute). You must ensure that the speed (or more correctly, velocity) is less than 300 FPM at the registers, so figure your register size based on that. Then work backwards, to figure the sizes of your silencer boxes, assuming that the cross-sectional area needs to suddenly change to at least twice/half the area, in at least a couple of places.

OK, so if we go with 160 CFM, and say we want 200 FPM at the register, it appears to me that I would want my registers to be about .8 ft2 (160/200), which is about 115 in2. So register size would be something like 16"x8", which seems to be common enough. I don't know what options I have yet on duct sizes, but I think the existing ductwork is 8"x8", so about 50 in2. So I'll need to obviously do some more math but that seems to be in an ok ballpark to build the silencer boxes and double the air volume, if I'm understanding this (somewhat) correctly. I should have options on where to put them so I think I can worry about these particulars later. Again:

Then, based on all of the above, estimate the static pressure drop that your system will create. Now for the second sanity check: if you decided that your current system CAN handle the flow rate for your studio, now you must also check if it can handle that static pressure. Right now, it is handling a certain amount of static pressure from the rest of the house, and it has a limit, a maximum rated static pressure that it can handle. If adding your studio system static pressure would take it past that limit, then you cannot use the existing system, and we get back to the same comment as before: "If your existing system doesn't have the capacity, then you'll either need to upgrade it (big job, big money), or create an entirely new, separate system to handle just the studio (slightly smaller job, by about 5 minutes, slightly less money, by about 28 cents... :) )."

OK, I'm having trouble figuring out how to calculate the static pressure. I'm seeing that you need to know the length of the duct run, but I will have some control over that. I'm thinking it would be roughly 20 total feet with one 90 degree bend, but the calculators and search results I'm finding are like reading Greek. Any advice? More:

That covers the actual air movement issues: Then there's the heat handling issue to deal with as well: You need to figure out what heat load your studio will produce, in terms of "sensible heat load" and "latent heat load". Sensible heat load means just the amount of pure heat put out by your gear, your lights, your equipment, your instruments, and the human bodies that will be inside the room PLUS the heat that will be in the replacement fresh air that you bring in from the outdoors.

I re-did the math, and I think a normal scenario would be closer to 7,000 btu from gear, lights, people, etc. I don't know how to calculate the load of the replacement fresh air...

The "latent heat" is related to the humidity in all of the air, that needs to be removed.

I can tell you that the numbers from the ASHRAE reference in Rod's book for Atlanta are 6.2 for latent and .9 for sensible. But I'm at a loss as to what to do with this information. I also plan on running at least one or two dehumidifiers in the basement, including one in the studio, pretty much no matter what (obviously not while tracking and mixing). I don't want to factor that in necessarily, but I figure the dryer the better in general. So...my head is swimming even more than before, but please tell me I made some progress here :) Any help figuring out the rest would be greatly appreciated. With all of that said, would a theoretical set up look something like this, provided the current system can handle my final needs? 1. Tap off existing ductwork with an appropriately sized silencer box and register to get air into the room 2. Have contractor install a return of the same size, with the same size silencer box and register, connected to the overall system (UPDATE after Greg's post - so no? I should install return and vent to the outside?) 3. Run a new vent outside (not connected to the existing system) to bring in roughly the same amount of air that is being removed from the return Possibly an inline fan or two in this setup? Again, if I'm missing a clear explanation of all of this, I apologize, and please feel free to chastise me (while hopefully providing links) :) UPDATE: Thanks Greg! I wrote this before I saw your post. I'm not sure if an HRV is an option or not yet.