Yep! I feel you pain man! I've been in the planning stage for a few years now and still am trying to make sense of it all. I've even done worst where I've actually framed some walls and started putting things together all to realize that I was doing it all wrong. Thanks to Stuart I've gotten a reality check with everything and especially with my HVAC design. He isn't lying when he says it's the #1 thing that most people don't do right in the first place. It's a lot of math and a lot of figuring out but staying alive in the studio is probably important right? haha Don't give up man...you're on your way to a great build! :) I'm still figuring out my own HVAC design and hoping to find more answers to finalize my plan. Cheers!Isn't acoustic design FUN! It's amazing then things you learn.... Now everybody knows that if you want to feel like an immensely top heavy drunk, all you have to do is to try to design a studio! :) :shot:
Looking for some insight regarding my garage build...
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 21628.
Fill every square inch of the MSM air cavity with fiberglass insulation, got it! That's great information. 16dB+/-, wow. This concept seems similar to filling a glass bottle with sand; no more resonance (well, little).Yup! :thu: Sometimes people don't realize how important it is, or what it is really doing. The overall difference in isolation for a typical wall can be as much as 16 dB, when comparing "empty cavity" with "full cavity fill". It's the single biggest thing you can do to a wall to get a major difference in isolation. Adding an extra layer of drywall will get you a few dB, increasing the cavity depth will get you a few dB, increasing the stud spacing will get you a couple of dB... but putting insulation in there will get you at least ten dB, and maybe 16 dB (or more, under some circumstances).shows the great benefits of insulation in the cavity!
Absolutely, Stuart. I've been studying acoustics (on the sidelines) for years, and I've said it before, and will say it again, the more I learn, the more I realize how little I know, and as you pointed out, that also goes for the 'experts' who create these very standards we so intently rely upon, among other things, obviously, as well. To be completely, honest, the satisfaction that I get each time I finish a task, or have one of those acoustic lightbulb moments, make all the trouble and frustration worthwhile; in the end (if I don't die first, haha), I'll be able to work full-time from my home studio, in peace and solitude, without having to pay studio fees, drive through Chicago traffic, or waste time doing setups/tear downs each day and night, among the other one million benefits of working for oneself at home.Isn't acoustic design FUN! It's amazing then things you learn.... Now everybody knows that if you want to feel like an immensely top heavy drunk, all you have to do is to try to design a studio! :) :shot: On a more serious note: it's a huge subject, and there's always more stuff to learn. It's a moving target, too: just when you think you are getting a good handle on things, some darn scientist goes and publishes a new research paper, or writes a new book! Sigh.... - Stuart -It's funny, every time that I start feeling like I'm making progress, the weight of every small decision I make seems to make me feel like an immensely top heavy drunk.
Thanks 45, sympathy is clearly the acoustician's most shared emotion, hahaha! :D ...there's been so many before me and will be so many after, who begin building their dream palace only for their plans to wither up and fold, usually quickly. That's how difficult this field is. It's not for the poor, it's not for the weekend warrior, and it's definitely not for the faint of heart. Over the years, how many posts have you read here at John Sayers, looking for answers, only to find that the thread just suddenly died? For me, a whole sh*tload, thus why I needed to start my own thread (admittedly prematurely, but if Stuart and Greg aren't pissed, then hey, I'm glad I did) because I will not give up or be defeated, until the very moment that I am making a comfortable living doing audio work, and audio work only, from my own, personal, home recording studio! I'm very happy to have finally gathered my bearings on this build, though, I will undoubtedly have more struggles/questions in the very near future, obviously. I say bring it on. Cheers!Yep! I feel you pain man! I've been in the planning stage for a few years now and still am trying to make sense of it all. I've even done worst where I've actually framed some walls and started putting things together all to realize that I was doing it all wrong. Thanks to Stuart I've gotten a reality check with everything and especially with my HVAC design. He isn't lying when he says it's the #1 thing that most people don't do right in the first place. It's a lot of math and a lot of figuring out but staying alive in the studio is probably important right? haha Don't give up man...you're on your way to a great build! :) I'm still figuring out my own HVAC design and hoping to find more answers to finalize my plan. Cheers!
Amen brother...AMEN!! lol
The percentage of dried up threads is staggering. I'm in the middle of my second studio build and today the doctor ordered me to get hand x-rays and a bunch of other crap. It is depressing as my screwed up hands will slow me down. But my build has too much riding on it and like you, I'm determined to finish it even if it takes me countless years. I too am sick of renting places that aren't set up well. With the help of everyone on the forum, I'm confident we can all have amazing studios. Guys like you push me to learn more and work harder on my place. And even if we get 1 hour of work done on our places each week, we are headed in the right direction. Thank you guys for pushing the rest of us! Greg...there's been so many before me and will be so many after, who begin building their dream palace only for their plans to wither up and fold, usually quickly. That's how difficult this field is. It's not for the poor, it's not for the weekend warrior, and it's definitely not for the faint of heart. Over the years, how many posts have you read here at John Sayers, looking for answers, only to find that the thread just suddenly died? For me, a whole sh*tload, thus why I needed to start my own thread (admittedly prematurely, but if Stuart and Greg aren't pissed, then hey, I'm glad I did) because I will not give up or be defeated, until the very moment that I am making a comfortable living doing audio work, and audio work only, from my own, personal, home recording studio!
Sorry to hear about your hands, Greg. That sucks! Just when you were really getting into things, too. I sure do hope you recover quickly!
Have you thought about building with your feet? :shot: (OK, I'll see myself to the door.... bye now... )
But more seriously, maybe you could hire someone to do the work for you, while you just supervise? Or get musician friends in to help you for free, in exchange for future free recording/mixing/mastering?
The most important thing is to heed your doctor's advice! Take a break long enough that your hands can recover, then take it easy when you pick up with the building again! I had carpal tunnel issues a few years back, and learned to slow down enough that I don't bring it back again... Jus' sayin'! We do want to see your place complete, and not just another dried-up thread!
- Stuart -
Sorry to see your struggling Greg. It reminds me to be grateful that my health has held up so well during my build......
Damn, Greg, sorry to hear that, I hope that you can find a treatment to give you some relief. What a shame. :( ...with the bad news aside, however, I'd like to thank you for the compliment, as I really enjoy hearing positive ways in which my determination motivates those around me, and I feel the same about you, being part of my 'motivational' equation as well, because without your knowledge and willingness to guide me along my build, it'd simply be sh*t in the end. Long live this thread, and good health to all of you in 2019!The percentage of dried up threads is staggering. I'm in the middle of my second studio build and today the doctor ordered me to get hand x-rays and a bunch of other crap. It is depressing as my screwed up hands will slow me down. But my build has too much riding on it and like you, I'm determined to finish it even if it takes me countless years. I too am sick of renting places that aren't set up well. With the help of everyone on the forum, I'm confident we can all have amazing studios. Guys like you push me to learn more and work harder on my place. And even if we get 1 hour of work done on our places each week, we are headed in the right direction. Thank you guys for pushing the rest of us! Greg
Hey Greg, I too am sorry to hear about the pains in your hands; any kind of diagnosis yet? The reason I ask is that it sounds similar to what I have. For the past year (since deciding to start my build) I've been getting terrible pain in my joints, started in my hands and now is in my knees, elbows, and feet, too. I've had numerous blood tests, x-rays, physio, and occupational health sessions, I'm awaiting my ultrasound. I finally got the chance to see a rheumatologist and even he is not sure what's going on. My gut instinct was rheumatoid arthritis, then I thought it was hemochromatosis, and then I thought it was reactive arthritis and now I have no idea what it is. I have no grip in my hands, it's painful to try and turn a key in a lock, heavy lifting is impossible because my arms just give way. My right wrist has lost 80% of its flex, I cannot bend it back more than about 20% of what I could before. It's a nightmare, so though I do not know exactly how you feel, I can sympathize with you to an extent. Hang in there, and I sincerely hope you can figure out what's causing the problem and that it's only temporary.The percentage of dried up threads is staggering. I'm in the middle of my second studio build and today the doctor ordered me to get hand x-rays and a bunch of other crap. It is depressing as my screwed up hands will slow me down. But my build has too much riding on it and like you, I'm determined to finish it even if it takes me countless years. I too am sick of renting places that aren't set up well. With the help of everyone on the forum, I'm confident we can all have amazing studios. Guys like you push me to learn more and work harder on my place. And even if we get 1 hour of work done on our places each week, we are headed in the right direction. Thank you guys for pushing the rest of us! Greg...there's been so many before me and will be so many after, who begin building their dream palace only for their plans to wither up and fold, usually quickly. That's how difficult this field is. It's not for the poor, it's not for the weekend warrior, and it's definitely not for the faint of heart. Over the years, how many posts have you read here at John Sayers, looking for answers, only to find that the thread just suddenly died? For me, a whole sh*tload, thus why I needed to start my own thread (admittedly prematurely, but if Stuart and Greg aren't pissed, then hey, I'm glad I did) because I will not give up or be defeated, until the very moment that I am making a comfortable living doing audio work, and audio work only, from my own, personal, home recording studio!
Thanks for the thoughts guys! Sorry for hijacking this thread, but to answer this question, I have a referral to see a rheumatologist as well. I think you're further along in the process than me. Regarding your feet, I'll suggest to wear rigid soled work boots when you're up on the ladder. I had bad feet pain after a long day caulking on the ladder in running shoes. So far, for pain relief, of course the cure has been wrist braces and rest. I wouldn't be surprised if all of us building our studios go a little bit too hard and injure ourselves. Hang in there man. I hope you're pain resides and your build continues to go well. GregHey Greg, I too am sorry to hear about the pains in your hands; any kind of diagnosis yet? The reason I ask is that it sounds similar to what I have. For the past year (since deciding to start my build) I've been getting terrible pain in my joints, started in my hands and now is in my knees, elbows, and feet, too. I've had numerous blood tests, x-rays, physio, and occupational health sessions, I'm awaiting my ultrasound. I finally got the chance to see a rheumatologist and even he is not sure what's going on. My gut instinct was rheumatoid arthritis, then I thought it was hemochromatosis, and then I thought it was reactive arthritis and now I have no idea what it is. I have no grip in my hands, it's painful to try and turn a key in a lock, heavy lifting is impossible because my arms just give way. My right wrist has lost 80% of its flex, I cannot bend it back more than about 20% of what I could before. It's a nightmare, so though I do not know exactly how you feel, I can sympathize with you to an extent. Hang in there, and I sincerely hope you can figure out what's causing the problem and that it's only temporary.
Thanks for the thoughts and kind words Greg, I too wish you a speedy recovery and build! BTW, if you do find out that you have some sort of inflammatory arthritic condition including rheumatoid arthritis then PM me as I have some useful medical advice that can make it almost redundant.Thanks for the thoughts guys! Sorry for hijacking this thread, but to answer this question, I have a referral to see a rheumatologist as well. I think you're further along in the process than me. Regarding your feet, I'll suggest to wear rigid soled work boots when you're up on the ladder. I had bad feet pain after a long day caulking on the ladder in running shoes. So far, for pain relief, of course the cure has been wrist braces and rest. I wouldn't be surprised if all of us building our studios go a little bit too hard and injure ourselves. Hang in there man. I hope you're pain resides and your build continues to go well. GregHey Greg, I too am sorry to hear about the pains in your hands; any kind of diagnosis yet? The reason I ask is that it sounds similar to what I have. For the past year (since deciding to start my build) I've been getting terrible pain in my joints, started in my hands and now is in my knees, elbows, and feet, too. I've had numerous blood tests, x-rays, physio, and occupational health sessions, I'm awaiting my ultrasound. I finally got the chance to see a rheumatologist and even he is not sure what's going on. My gut instinct was rheumatoid arthritis, then I thought it was hemochromatosis, and then I thought it was reactive arthritis and now I have no idea what it is. I have no grip in my hands, it's painful to try and turn a key in a lock, heavy lifting is impossible because my arms just give way. My right wrist has lost 80% of its flex, I cannot bend it back more than about 20% of what I could before. It's a nightmare, so though I do not know exactly how you feel, I can sympathize with you to an extent. Hang in there, and I sincerely hope you can figure out what's causing the problem and that it's only temporary.
I got lucky and was able to finagle some 5/8" sheets behind the breaker box. Man, what a pain in the ass.
So obviously, I'll need access to my electrical panel, but with it residing inside my MSM air cavity, that will obviously need some special attention. Any ideas here?...I recall Greg mentioning building a box around it, but I'm unable to paint that picture in my mind (and to still have access, that is).
Also, I'm trying to visualize a way to avoid having to seal off the area under the staircase (to the right of the electric panel, which you cannot see in this pic, see posts below) as I would love to use it for mic stand storage, cables, etc. (Edited Text & Photo): I have determined that I will build my LR closer to the original Sketchup design on page 3, with some minor changes, such as moving the under-staircase door to the outside of the LR (w/ access from the outside of the LR outer leaf.)
...different view, with the door in the location I'd choose if I went for a large, single room design.
...another view. Sorry I didn't post them as one, J.Sayers always gives me guff when I upload large pics.
Hello!
...so I'm thinking about putting up the two outer walls for my live room, and want to incorporate my garage's main support beam (LVL) as a top plate/nailer. Would you advise against this?
...also, if you look at the picture below, those same two walls I'm about to build will meet at the same place where my garage's 3.5" center post support is. I recall that the air cavity is a great place to hide things such as this... Do you think I should run my drywall to the outside of that beam (burying the beam in the air cavity, and inline with the outer leaf framing)? ...it is worth noting that my framing can't butt together at this location, but the drywall can go around it, if that makes any sense...maybe the pic will illustrate what I mean.
Many thanks!
-Chris
That's fine, but you will have to make sure you have enough mass between the joists above that LVL and ensure that it's all sealed well.Would you advise against this?
You can determine this yourself in your 3D SketchUp. Basically, just make sure there is no void in your required mass and sealing! Greg...also, if you look at the picture below, those same two walls I'm about to build will meet at the same place where my garage's 3.5" center post support is. I recall that the air cavity is a great place to hide things such as this... Do you think I should run my drywall to the outside of that beam (burying the beam in the air cavity, and inline with the outer leaf framing)? ...it is worth noting that my framing can't butt together at this location, but the drywall can go around it, if that makes any sense...maybe the pic will illustrate what I mean.
Thanks, Greg, that is small, but great news, I can't wait to get this going!
...also, I've got an IAC acoustic door, with an two piece adjustable frame (allows the frame to be set for different cavity depths), and I'm wondering about mounting these two metal frames to my two MSM wood frames; if a single nail can compromise a MSM system, how is it that installing a door won't?...
I searched around, but really can't find a reassuring answer.
Anyhow, thanks again, I really appreciate it!
-Chris
Personally, I'm not convinced that you can use an adjustable metal frame and achieve no voids and a perfect seal. I would never use one myself for that reason. My opinion aside, does the manufacturer not provide you with detailed instructions? If not, maybe it's because they know you'll see a flaw in their design..... ? Greg...also, I've got an IAC acoustic door, with an two piece adjustable frame (allows the frame to be set for different cavity depths), and I'm wondering about mounting these two metal frames to my two MSM wood frames; if a single nail can compromise a MSM system, how is it that installing a door won't?...
I had the same feeling about this, thus why I figured it worth asking...looking at the door design, I feel that I don't really need to join the two frames, but I'll have to confirm that when I get going a bit...and no, I don't have any documentation for the door, as I scored it from a studio demo awhile back. I can't help but wonder how to properly 'couple' leafs (this has to be the only way, right?) where doors exist; it seems obvious that this has to occur, as mass is needed in all voids, like you said, but if I mount the door on the outer leaf (swings out), how do I enclose the air cavity between leaves at this juncture?...any pics/threads/references available? Thank again, Greg! :DPersonally, I'm not convinced that you can use an adjustable metal frame and achieve no voids and a perfect seal. I would never use one myself for that reason. My opinion aside, does the manufacturer not provide you with detailed instructions? If not, maybe it's because they know you'll see a flaw in their design..... ? Greg...also, I've got an IAC acoustic door, with an two piece adjustable frame (allows the frame to be set for different cavity depths), and I'm wondering about mounting these two metal frames to my two MSM wood frames; if a single nail can compromise a MSM system, how is it that installing a door won't?...
Here are some threads with great pictures that should answer your question: I went to the search feature and typed BRAUS and here are the results Gregany pics/threads/references available?
Happy 2019 my friends!
I've looked into this and have gained some clarity, thanks for the direction! I gather that BRAUS is actually somebody's name, and not an acronym for something that pertains to acoustics?...haha, just curious. Below is a pic of my outer leaf frame, which shows how I plan to tuck the support beam in the air cavity of my MSM system. So, I plan to utilize half of my steel door frame (the front side w/ hinges, bolt holes, etc.), but I'll still need to make a custom steel threshold, since the original didn't make it through the demo that I scored it from. Fortunately, I have access to a full blown metal fabrication shop, so it should be a breeze for me to make a super dense (voidless), custom stainless steel threshold for my self lowering (beveled hinge) acoustic door...but with that said... ...is there any reason for me to leave the 2x4 under the custom threshold, or is it safe for me to assume that I can remove that, as long as my threshold is tight? I'm sure that I'm making a bigger deal about this than I should be. Cheers!Here are some threads with great pictures that should answer your question: I went to the search feature and typed BRAUS and here are the results Gregany pics/threads/references available?
One of my clients in Australia. He has given me permission to use photos from his studio, but not to identify who he is. The studio is working well, last time I checked with him: He teaches drums, so he often has not one but TWO large drum kits, going really hard! :shock: I designed it for maximum isolation, and he got the results he was looking for: his neighbors (a few meters away from the door) cannot hear a thing, and upstairs his wife and kids are not bothered at all: just a very vague, distant, muffled sound.I gather that BRAUS is actually somebody's name, and not an acronym for something that pertains to acoustics?...haha, just curious.
Well you COULD do that, but it might be easier to just buy one, ready made, from some place like Zero International: they make acoustic door seals in several different flavors, including threshold plates and drop-down door seals.since the original didn't make it through the demo that I scored it from. Fortunately, I have access to a full blown metal fabrication shop, so it should be a breeze for me to make a super dense (voidless), custom stainless steel threshold for my self lowering (beveled hinge) acoustic door...but with that said...
That's fine, but first you need to complete the framing around your door. Studio doors are massive, and heavy. So when you swing it open, there's a huge amount of stress and tension placed on the framing. It needs to be beefy... if not, the framing can bend, sag, twist, or otherwise warp slightly over time, and your door will end up binding, and not sealing properly. Place noggins at 24" or even 16" intervals up the stud bays to each side in the first bay, then half that spacing, staggered, in the second bay. If your door is excessively heavy, then I have been known to put a 2x6 flat across the inner faces of the studs, facing the cavity, if there's enough gap to do that.......is there any reason for me to leave the 2x4 under the custom threshold, or is it safe for me to assume that I can remove that, as long as my threshold is tight?
Nope! Not big enough, actually! Installing a studio door is a big deal. It pays to think it through carefully, and question everything! EDITED TO ADD: A thought suddenly struck me: Why are you putting a door IN THE CORNER of your room???? :shock: 8) Not a good place.... - Stuart -I'm sure that I'm making a bigger deal about this than I should be.
Ahhhhh, I seeeee, it all makes a little more sense now, as does the picture of the dual combative drum setup, which had my imagination stirring; maximum isolation was clearly a necessity in his situation. Nice work!One of my clients in Australia. He has given me permission to use photos from his studio, but not to identify who he is. The studio is working well, last time I checked with him: He teaches drums, so he often has not one but TWO large drum kits, going really hard! :shock: I designed it for maximum isolation, and he got the results he was looking for: his neighbors (a few meters away from the door) cannot hear a thing, and upstairs his wife and kids are not bothered at all: just a very vague, distant, muffled sound.I gather that BRAUS is actually somebody's name, and not an acronym for something that pertains to acoustics?...haha, just curious.
since the original didn't make it through the demo that I scored it from. Fortunately, I have access to a full blown metal fabrication shop, so it should be a breeze for me to make a super dense (voidless), custom stainless steel threshold for my self lowering (beveled hinge) acoustic door...but with that said...
Ok, great, thanks for the recommendation, I'll definitely look into that before I go custom, as that would obviously be much easier.Well you COULD do that, but it might be easier to just buy one, ready made, from some place like Zero International: they make acoustic door seals in several different flavors, including threshold plates and drop-down door seals.
...is there any reason for me to leave the 2x4 under the custom threshold, or is it safe for me to assume that I can remove that, as long as my threshold is tight?
Nice, that's good news, as I need an extra 1/4" to even get my door in-between the top/bottom plates...good bye bottom plate. ...and yes, I will do a triple stud door frame for my beast of a door (already did, but will redo because of your advice below), and will be sure to add noggins/blocks; Would you advise that I use the noggins over the 2x6" method, or vice versa (assuming that my cavity allows it, which it should)?That's fine, but first you need to complete the framing around your door. Studio doors are massive, and heavy. So when you swing it open, there's a huge amount of stress and tension placed on the framing. It needs to be beefy... if not, the framing can bend, sag, twist, or otherwise warp slightly over time, and your door will end up binding, and not sealing properly. Place noggins at 24" or even 16" intervals up the stud bays to each side in the first bay, then half that spacing, staggered, in the second bay. If your door is excessively heavy, then I have been known to put a 2x6 flat across the inner faces of the studs, facing the cavity, if there's enough gap to do that...
I'm sure that I'm making a bigger deal about this than I should be.
Luckily, that's how I've been thinking about it, as I am not looking to compromise all of my hard work and study because I simply skimped out at such a critical juncture. I've been dreading the door install, but at this point, I'm actually feeling pretty confident about it. ...as for the door in the corner, yea, that was a major oversight on my account, I probably don't even need to look up why that is a terrible idea, as I can think of a few reasons off my mind. Thanks for pointing that out, Stuart...it's too bad that I couldn't think of that before I framed the walls, because I'd much rather prefer to have butt-nailed those studs, as compared to toe-nailing them. :evil: Oh well. Anyhow, I am now a little more curious about my LR door location; Acoustically speaking, would it be ideal for me to put the door in the middle(ish) area of the wall where it will be mounted in? Many thanks! -ChrisNope! Not big enough, actually! Installing a studio door is a big deal. It pays to think it through carefully, and question everything! EDITED TO ADD: A thought suddenly struck me: Why are you putting a door IN THE CORNER of your room???? :shock: 8) Not a good place.... - Stuart -
In the picture below, I can see that the unbuilt window frame in the background (sill & head) have lap joints; is this recommended?
Sure, why not? It's thick wood; you screw and glue it, maybe dowel it too, then it is held in place by the rough framing anyway, with shims packed in to keep it all nice and square and plumb. The rough framing is VERY tough and rigid: it's not going anywhere. - Stuart -I can see that the unbuilt window frame in the background (sill & head) have lap joints; is this recommended?
Ok, I'm picking up what you're putting down; over-build EVERYTHING!!! Hahaha...Sure, why not? It's thick wood; you screw and glue it, maybe dowel it too, then it is held in place by the rough framing anyway, with shims packed in to keep it all nice and square and plumb. The rough framing is VERY tough and rigid: it's not going anywhere. - Stuart -I can see that the unbuilt window frame in the background (sill & head) have lap joints; is this recommended?