CR Treatment and Tuning---The home stretch!!

Is it ok to finish the trim on the cloud? After a good nights sleep, I discovered more mistakes I was making like a clipping mic when messing with sub settings.... I don't think I need a new sub but should probably use monitor management instead of the internal crossover.

Had an interesting day sub placement testing...:horse: With 2 subs I am able to hit multiple issues..I then put some massive eq on it! This will ultimately be Stuart's domain, but I made it do some cool stuff.... This is no eq This is with eq :shot:

Guess ill go ahead and finish the trim on the cloud....Can i get an updated copy of the model so i can start on the desk?

Forgot what the set of 7 is...Could you refresh me? And curious if you could give me a sub recommendation...One that you know works rather than relying on marketing data.

Stadank0 wrote:

Forgot what the set of 7 is...Could you refresh me? And curious if you could give me a sub recommendation...One that you know works rather than relying on marketing data.

"Set of 7". That's the complete set of REW measurements that I need, to get the full picture of how your speakers and room are performing together. Using my cryptic shorthand abbreviation system, those are: L-- : (Left main speaker alone, everything else turned off) R-- : (Right main speaker alone, everything else turned off) LR- : (Left and right main speakers together, subs turned off) --S : (All subs on together, not individually, mains turned off) L-S : (Left main plus all subs on together, not individually, right main turned off) R-S : (Right main plus all subs on together, not individually, Left main turned off) LRS : (All speakers on together) If you have more than one sub, then in a separate MDAT file do a test with each of those alone, but for the actual "set of 7" I need to have all subs either on or off together: The reason being that low frequency sound is not directional, and they all act as one single unit anyway, as far as your ears and brain are concerned, so that's the way I need to see them. My cryptic abbreviation system is necessary because REW only allows you 19 characters to name each measurement! Never figured out why: I think Ill ask John if he can increase that, as it's a real problem when you have a lot of measurements in one file. So I created that system to abbreviate the actual speakers in use to three characters, and I've standardize on that for all my REW measurements. It makes it very easy. For 5.1, I add another three letters: "l" "c" and "r", in lower case, to designate the left-surround, center, and right surround speakers. And for 7.1 setups, I add an x and y, for the other two speakers. As you can imagine, it gets complex with multi-channel! Sub recommendation: Good subs are pricey, unfortunately. And the lower they go, the more they cost. Personally, I really like the Neumann KH810: it goes down to 19 Hz (for real, not just on paper), and up to 300 Hz (I've never pushed one that high, but I believe it would have no problem getting there), with +/- 2dB precision. Even at 18 Hz it is still +/-3 dB, which is pretty amazing (and Neumann claims 17 Hz to 600 Hz, +/-6dB... even more amazing). However, it is a huge monster! The box measures something like 13" x 15" x 25" deep, IIRC, and it weighs a ton! Even so, it would fit in your room just fine, no problem. Under the front window, turned sideways, would be perfect. And you would only need one: you could continue using the two Tannoys in addition to that that one, with some careful setting of the controls and careful positioning in the room. The KH810 is designed for up to 7.1 systems, so it has extensive bass management capabilities built-in: much more than your Tannoys do. Very complete. The entire back panel is full of connectors and controls (you can also get a remote controller for it). But it is rather expensive! Take a seat and a deep breath before you check the price list. Neumann also makes the KH805, which is practically the same as the KH810, but much less expensive as the built-in bass management system is designed for 2.1, not 7.1. Also a very impressive sub. Just like the 810, it goes down to 18 Hz and up to 300 Hz at +/- 3 db. The nearest thing that Focal makes would be the SW 1000 BE, which is about the same price as the KH810, but not quite up to the same specs. The Genelec 7360 is another option that I've heard good things about. Dynaudio has an interesting one out now, the 18S, which has two speakers, one at each end of a long box, phase flipped. Never tried it, but the concept is fascinating. Their 9S is pretty good too: it's basically half of the 18S. Other options: Adam Sub-12. Quite decent. Possibly the Presonus Temblor T10, down at the lower end of the quality and price scale. I wouldn't go lower than that, though. There are a couple of others, cheaper, but I would not recommend them. If I had to chose one from that list, and money was no object, and I needed multi-channel, I'd probably go for the KH810. On a tighter budget, or for pure stereo (2.1), I'd go for the KH805. As I mentioned, these two are basically the same speaker, same specs, same power, except that the 810 has the more advanced bass management for 7.1, while the 805 is for 2.1. The 805 would be fine for your room, and is a lot less expensive than the 810, the Focal SW 1000 BE, or the Genelec. These KH810 and KH805s are from the old Klein & Hummel guys, a highly respected German manufacturer from a few decades back.: Neumann bought them out several years ago, hence the "KH" part of the model number. Neumann was smart enough to keep the K&H product line relatively unchanged when they bought them out: about the only thing they did was change the logo on the box! Great speakers, if you can afford them. That's my $0.02 on subs for today.... - Stuart -

Wow! I have been away from this forum for a while and just getting back into it and I have to agree with Stuart...that's amazing, incredible, spectacular work Frank! Very nice! Loving the cloud with LED lighting! Cheers!

Hey thanks man! :mrgreen: Its always nice to hear the feedback.... The work has been long and hard and I'm feeling proud of the result so far.

For everybody else, Got the desk plans and should have some finished cloud trim pictures up in a couple of days. The desk will probably take 2-3 weeks. Still gotta figure out my construction methods and source some materials...The end really is in sight!! Can hardly believe it... Stay tuned :snack:

The Desk... I call it the "Soundman M1" desk... :) (I'd appreciate it if others refrain from trying to copy this design: it is my proprietary design. If you want me to adapt if for your room, PM me.). - Stuart -

Ahhhh....you gave it a name...that's adorable. :lol:

OK...Here it is. Still have to do some tweaking, screw hole patch and touch paint....I'm in love :mrgreen: The pictures do seem a bit warped....thankfully it looks more symmetrical in person!

Very cool, Frank! VERY cool! :thu: Shoot me across a "set of seven" REW tests if you feel like, it so we have a true acoustic picture of the room before the desk goes in. In the meantime, I've been working on some ideas for the final two treatment areas that are still open: Above the window, and below the window. I think I have a good plan, but I'll hold off on finalizing that until the desk is in, as I really want to see what the magnitude of the effect will be on the frequencies I'm targeting there. - Stuart -

Sounds good...I'll get those in the morning..My back hurts!!! :D I got a set of Auratone 5c sound cubes as mix reference monitors. Nice and small. Should have no problem fitting those behind the desk on stands... Tomorrow the desk begins! Got all my materials ready to go.

I got a set of Auratone 5c sound cubes as mix reference monitors

I was actually thinking of suggesting those for you a while back, but then I figured you'd shoot me, when you heard what those little things sound like, next to your Focal Trios... :) The frequency response of the Auratone is about the same as the frequency response of a wounded brick... Even the NS-10 is better than the Auratone , and that's saying something! So a pair of those would be pretty good for your room, to test how the mix will sound on below average lousy domestic speakers, yes. - Stuart -

Thats the idea.... I have a set of bm15 passive speakers with a bryston amp that I just can't part with so I'm going to put those in the live room with the other station... those things are such a cool compliment to my Focal Speakers because they have a focus that's much more upper-mid as opposed to the focals which are definitely more lower mid-range focused... their emphasis reveals different things.. That is exactly why I want the auratones though. I should add that the trios are more balanced than the twins... I really like listening to the dynaudio in contrast to the twins...

Just wanted to post a couple of proper pics now that the finish is pretty much done on the cloud. Just a few blemishes to smooth out.

Hey all! Still here, just spending days tweaking on the 3 subwoofer placement..It is no fun. I mean seriously mind numbing, but critically important...Should be starting on the desk shortly!

Alright....Another round of miserable bass testing..many hours and hundreds of measurements spent chasing my tail! :horse: So I think I can be happy with the results. They're certainly not perfect, but should get me where I need to be. Fortunately I have both down firing and forward firing subs to play with now, which made a useful difference...Actually quite necessary in my case. A tough room to deal with for sure. I needed forward firing under the window and down firing on the sides to bring things into EQ correcting range. By the way in case anybody wants to know, I've been using the Massenburg Parametric EQ in my UA Apollo...Its awesome as you can see from the graphs. I've got things down to about +/- 4 db with it and I'm hearing good things..I'll be using Stuart's method for the actual digital correction, but if he's real nice, I'll give him some pointers! :P Now I'll finally start the damn desk! at 1/24 smoothing at 1/24 smoothing at 1/48 smoothing at 1/48 smoothing

The low end is looking rather nice, Frank, but there's still lots that needs cleaning up. - Stuart -

Never happy with all my hard work! :P by the way, I can do all of the floor Mike positions in the LR it's just the ever Corners that are now blocked by the soffit. If it's okay for me to just put the mic up under the soffit in the corners, I can do that...

I can do all of the floor Mike positions in the LR it's just the ever Corners that are now blocked by the soffit. If it's okay for me to just put the mic up under the soffit in the corners, I can do that...

Yup! That's fine. It's a Live Room, so we don't need the same type of precision measurements that we have had all along for the Control Room. Probably there's not too much that needs doing in the low end of the LR, as that should already be under sufficient control, but it's good to check anyway, just in case there's something nasty. The goal for your LR is to get the decay times up to something more useful, and that's mostly going to be a "mids and highs" issue. - Stuart -

LR measurements sent! the room is a bit above 200, but still....

LR measurements sent! the room is a bit above 200, but still....

Yup, but not by much. Depending on the location, the times are around 210 ms - 240 ms. Much too low for good tracking: there's basically no room sound at all in there: that room would work nicely as a control room, actually! Even the sub on it's own is only about 400ms.... (We might even need to live up the low end a bit.) So the room is way too dry for good tracking, or rehearsal. Vocals should be OK in there, but drums, keyboards, brass, wind, and most strings would sound dull and stuffy. I would like to shoot for at least 600ms in there, and maybe higher if we can. 800ms would be great, as long as it is reasonably diffuse, but it might be hard to get that high. You also seem to have a flutter echo problem in there, in the low mids.... - Stuart -