from shed to studio?

I'm about to build a little music room 10x12 (yeah tiny I know but thats how much my backyard allows) I plan on having drums/piano in there as well as guitars and what not as well as a DAW. I have a room in my house which is 10x10 and with an additional 2 feet I think I can make it work. Any how, We are going to start on it this weekend. What would be the best method of approaching this? We have plans to build the shed as a very basic shed but then we will add insulation/dry wall inside. How should I do my floors because it will not be on concrete slab but rather piers. I was thinking foundation-->plywood-->foam/pad-->plywood--->carpet and the walls as insulation--->drywall--->soundboard--->acoustic foam. I'm not trying to make it totaly soundproof to where I can jam at 3am but at least so the noise is to a minimal. I don't know I guess I have alot of questions and just don't know where to start. thanks!

I'm short on time but here's a nearly identical scenario where I helped on another forum - follow the entire thread, we covered everything you need - http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showth ... adid=88275 Read all the pages, then post back with any questions - I'll have more time later... Steve

Hi I read most of that and I gained some knowledge but still have questions. I guess what i'm asking is how should I build the shed since i'm starting from scratch. I have the plan i'm using attached below, except i'm not using a barn door but will buy one pre made so it seals better. the ceiling i'll be insulating and will be putting dry wall up. what is all this talk about sheet rock? what do I use it for? I'm sorry i'm not familar with all this im a first timer :) http://members.cox.net/toantruong/O1210.pdf one more stupid question, if I put pads under the 2x4 joists where the beam meets the skid pads, how thick of a rubber pad should I use and will this affect in any way nailing the beam to the skid pad since it is now raised?

OK, first of all could you update your profile to include a location? Not looking for your address or credit card numbers, just a general area so I know what to call things - for example, you mentioned dry wall, which in various parts of the world (and even within the US in different parts) is alternately known as sheet rock, gypsum, gypsum wallboard, gyp-rock, plasterboard, 'rock, and probably a few I've missed - Second, if you're planning to build that shed with the few changes you mentioned, I hope your neighbors are REALLY big fans of your music - because they will hear it almost as well as YOU do. That shed plan looks like a nice one for what it was intended, but using that design for ANY level of sound reduction is a lot like buying a used volkswagen bug with one piston missing and entering it in the Indy 500 expecting to win... Sound, especially LOW frequency sound (like drums and bass) is not easily stopped, or even slowed down - it requires careful planning, a specific design, proper choice of materials, and SERIOUS attention to detail during construction. That's why I pointed you to that particular thread - Jim asked several times about different, easier ways to build - I steered him back to what would actually WORK in each case. At the end, drums were basically IN-AUDIBLE 10 feet from his room. I flat GUARANTEE that if you build the shed in your attachment with just the changes you mentioned, that you'll be able to hear ALL your band from 2 neighbors away, probably further. I say this because I've DONE it - The room I built over 20 years ago is still in use - as a STORAGE room. It's built at least as good as your plan, and my wife could sit in the house 100 feet away and tell me what I was playing on an ACOUSTIC piano. Also, if you hang drywall on the rafters of that plan, you'll very likely cause the roof to fall in on you. The design for their "trusses" is very weak and will barely support the outer roof. My main point is, if you don't want to be grossly disappointed with your new room, don't rush it - standard construction techniques simply DO NOT WORK for any decent amount of sound reduction. Period. For more info on what DOES work, please read at least the first page of this link THOROUGHLY - http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=598 One of the hardest parts about moderating this forum is listening to people tell me what they built (or paid someone to build) BEFORE they ask for advice - PLEASE don't build before you understand that SOUND construction is NOTHING like normal construction, and there is an entirely different set of "rules" as to what works and what does NOT. I've been building things off and on for over 40 years, and studying sound/acoustics for over 20 - I can give you the necessary parts of that in a few weeks if you want something that will work for you, but it is NOT a weekend project unless all you want is a place to keep your lawnmower and garden tools dry - if you listen to experienced construction people who have NOT done sound construction, I guarantee you WON'T be happy with the result - I know, because before I built that room 20 years ago I had actually run a remodeling crew, and thought I knew everything. Fortunately for me, my two closest neighbors on each side were either deaf or gone most of the time, and the next ones over actually LIKED our music (and complained if we stopped practice early) - my place is out in the country on 10 acres, and the houses are about 200 feet apart. In town, the entire block would have had to like our songs or we would have been screwed... Please don't take all this as harrassment, I'm only trying to keep you from having to experience part of the pain I've been through - you can avoid most (or all) of that, but NOT by rushing into things... Steve

knightfly wrote:

OK, first of all could you update your profile to include a location? Not looking for your address or credit card numbers, just a general area so I know what to call things - for example, you mentioned dry wall, which in various parts of the world (and even within the US in different parts) is alternately known as sheet rock, gypsum, gypsum wallboard, gyp-rock, plasterboard, 'rock, and probably a few I've missed - Second, if you're planning to build that shed with the few changes you mentioned, I hope your neighbors are REALLY big fans of your music - because they will hear it almost as well as YOU do. That shed plan looks like a nice one for what it was intended, but using that design for ANY level of sound reduction is a lot like buying a used volkswagen bug with one piston missing and entering it in the Indy 500 expecting to win... Sound, especially LOW frequency sound (like drums and bass) is not easily stopped, or even slowed down - it requires careful planning, a specific design, proper choice of materials, and SERIOUS attention to detail during construction. That's why I pointed you to that particular thread - Jim asked several times about different, easier ways to build - I steered him back to what would actually WORK in each case. At the end, drums were basically IN-AUDIBLE 10 feet from his room. I flat GUARANTEE that if you build the shed in your attachment with just the changes you mentioned, that you'll be able to hear ALL your band from 2 neighbors away, probably further. I say this because I've DONE it - The room I built over 20 years ago is still in use - as a STORAGE room. It's built at least as good as your plan, and my wife could sit in the house 100 feet away and tell me what I was playing on an ACOUSTIC piano. Also, if you hang drywall on the rafters of that plan, you'll very likely cause the roof to fall in on you. The design for their "trusses" is very weak and will barely support the outer roof. My main point is, if you don't want to be grossly disappointed with your new room, don't rush it - standard construction techniques simply DO NOT WORK for any decent amount of sound reduction. Period. For more info on what DOES work, please read at least the first page of this link THOROUGHLY - http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=598 One of the hardest parts about moderating this forum is listening to people tell me what they built (or paid someone to build) BEFORE they ask for advice - PLEASE don't build before you understand that SOUND construction is NOTHING like normal construction, and there is an entirely different set of "rules" as to what works and what does NOT. I've been building things off and on for over 40 years, and studying sound/acoustics for over 20 - I can give you the necessary parts of that in a few weeks if you want something that will work for you, but it is NOT a weekend project unless all you want is a place to keep your lawnmower and garden tools dry - if you listen to experienced construction people who have NOT done sound construction, I guarantee you WON'T be happy with the result - I know, because before I built that room 20 years ago I had actually run a remodeling crew, and thought I knew everything. Fortunately for me, my two closest neighbors on each side were either deaf or gone most of the time, and the next ones over actually LIKED our music (and complained if we stopped practice early) - my place is out in the country on 10 acres, and the houses are about 200 feet apart. In town, the entire block would have had to like our songs or we would have been screwed... Please don't take all this as harrassment, I'm only trying to keep you from having to experience part of the pain I've been through - you can avoid most (or all) of that, but NOT by rushing into things... Steve

I understand what you are saying. I'll be sure to read through that whole page. I'm in San Diego since you were wondering. Well I wanted to get started on building the foundation this weekend since it's only 10x12 it shouldn't take too long. side note: currently we jam in the garage which is a standard garage, no dry wall on the walls you can see all the beams and stuff so when we jam, everyone can hear it and it is very loud in the house. The objective of my "shed" is just so that when I jam my dad can be in his room and watch tv, currently the garage is adjacent to his bedroom so sitting in his bedroom he might as well be sittting in the middle of garage. I know that getting the room completely sound proof will be extremely costly and I don't think it's worth it for a room of this size. I just want to reduce the volume that is comming out just a tad bit. So all in all, how should I build this foundation? I wanted to do this project a weekend at a time, build the foundation one, then walls next etc. My plan on building the foundation was to dig holes where the concrete piers were going to be, put concrete in them and set the piers inside and lay the foundation on top of it. Now is there anything I should do, or put in-between where the piers and the skids meet? Next question is, bottom side of the foundation facing the ground should I leave it bare or cover it with particle board (or plywood)? If I did this, wouldn't the particle board crack or get damaged by all the weight of the room on top of it? Then, when laying the floor joists down I plan on using 2x6s beams (I keep reading about how much better it is to use 2x6 than 2x4, but for what reason?) with pads (these are just normal rubber pads right?) where the joists meet the skids? And my question again, since now these joists are raised, doesn't this affect the distance from where the beam meets the skids and in result affecting how I am going to essentially nail the joist the skid? After that is finished to top of the floor, would particle board then foam (or some type of acoustic treatment/insulation) then particle board then my flooring be ok? I'm sorry you have to hold my hand through this, but building the shed would be simple but making it slightly sound proof introduces so many new things! Oh and from the bottom in between each joist, I should put some type of moisture pad right? And after i'm done building this foundation, take acoustic caulk to all the edges and seams? This stuff is readliy available at home depot or lowes? Whew, alot of questions and this is just the beginning. Thank you for all your help!

Actual acoustic caulk generally is NOT available at home depot or lowes - you need to use the yellow pages and contact every local COMMERCIAL drywall/insulation contractor until you find one that will sell you the big 29 oz tubes of REAL acoustic caulk - the only exception to this is if you plan to tear the building back down within 3-5 years, then you MIGHT not lose sound isolation due to cracking and shrinking of the caulk. Small cracks mean big losses. In case you didn't finish the thread on HR, here's the diagrams I re-linked to - http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=328 they show the answers to nearly ALL your questions except the vapor barrier on the bottom. For that, just finish the joist frames, cover with Tyvek (comes in a 9' wide roll, same stuff the old floppy disks used to use for envelopes) and build the rest exactly as I've shown. There are more diagrams further down on the page. I'm on 12-hour graveyard shifts for the next few days, and although I'll try to check in a couple of times you really need to digest ALL the info I've linked to and read ALL the "stickies" on the construction forum - most of the answers are there, just read (and do) carefully. It would really help if you have a friend/relative who isn't as new to construction though - I just don't have enough time to teach all the basics needed to build tight sound isolated construction, sorry - There are, however, enough of this type question already answered here that if you take the time to browse thru back pages you'll find what you need. Read carefully, take notes about any questions you still have, and I'll try to check in a couple of times in the next 2-3 days... Steve

So I was able to get acoustic caulk today and neoprene pads. So when I build the foundation, compress the pad about 25% then just nail straight through this? Anyone? thanks!

No, if you do this you may as well just throw the neoprene away and save the trouble - each nail will carry sound through to the skids below. The point of the neoprene is to isolate your upper floated floor from the rest of the structure. Here is the correct way to do this; please read the text explanations and follow the arrows to see what goes where. Especially read the part about puck location (the pads) - the drawing is shown for clarity of each layer, but is NOT shown correctly for the way the pads need to line up with supports. As the drawing states, the pads are not shown where they need to be - they need to be in line with the joists that are below the first layers of flooring - all that's missing is the Tyvek layer (do NOT use black plastic here, the tyvek "breathes" slightly so won't rot your floor) - put your skids down, then the lower floor framing 2x6's, THEN the Tyvek layer, (not shown in the drawing) then the double layer of OSB, (don't put second layer joints in line with the first layer ones) , then line up your pads directly over every SECOND joist (but on top of the floor) - if you want, you can GLUE the pads in place, but don't put ANY fasteners through the pads. I think everything else is stated in the drawing, I'm posting it here to save links... Steve Sorry about the width, if I make it any smaller the text isn't readable - for your application, your skids would replace the (trapezoidal) concrete blocks at the very bottom.

Ok I understand now, many of the drawings i've seen pictured the neoprene not under the flooring but in the foundation, makes sense now. So basicly i'll be placing these pads on my "first" floor, after the pucks, I can put another layer of OSB on top of that and right on top of that of my floor material, hard wood? Please correct me if i'm wrong, if I put the pads on top of my first layer of OSB, I will not be placing the pucks directly ontop and in contact with the 2x6, how big then should I make the pucks? Hope this is clear. Thank you very much for all the help you have given me, I apreeciate it!

I stole part of my first drawing and added some, see if this helps... Steve BTW, do NOT build the inner floor (from pucks upward) until your walls/roofing, etc, are done - just be sure to mark exactly where your joists are under the subfloor, so you can place pucks and build the floated floor AFTER the walls are up. The perimeter isolation board will keep the inner, floated floor from hard contact with the wallboard on the inside of the wall frame. Once this is in place, caulk thoroughly with acoustic caulk. See the "stickies" for more caulking info, mainly the "complete section" one...

oh thank god thats it exactly what I was looking for, I will start building just the bottom foundation then according to the plan as well as the first floor nothing too special about that. thanks again!

You're welcome - just remember that this will NOT give TOTAL isolation - that would require completely independent inner and outer wall frames, double airlock doors, and enough space to implement all that. The type of rubber may dictate your spacing and size of the pucks too - you may want to add a third layer of OSB on the floated part of the floor to lower resonant frequency and improve isolation, but right now your door will be the weak point in construction, even with a well-caulked and fitted solid core door with weatherstripping. Time enough for that in successive installments though... Steve

Yeah I understand that but this will be just fine. I'm going to go buy lumber tomorrow and build the foundation next weekend, i'll do more reading and probably have more questions, thanks again!

I just bought 3 - 4x4 Treated Skids and 12 2x4 Treated joists along with 9 concrete piers. Will start on foundation next weekend, i'll be sure to post pics!

Now you're making me nervous - what spacing are you planning on between skids, and between 2x4's? Hopefully, your skids will run the 12' way at 40" centers, then the 2x4's on 24" centers running the 10' way? If so, remember - the 4x4's will be supporting the entire weight, keep in mind that you're making much heavier walls/ceiling than normal - I think I would use at least one more skid/pier blocks across the 10 foot span (making 30" centers instead of 40" centers) and more blocks under the perimeter skids ( 5 blocks under the outer skids, for 36" centers) - if this isn't clear, let me know and I will do a full drawing of what I recommend for your sub floor/framing... Steve

I'm building the foundation according to plan the 4x4s going 12' length, and the 2x4s (which I am totally stupid and just realized now) going the 10' width (and I bought 12' too for no reason). My plan is 3 skids one on each outer edge and in the middle, the 2x4 joists spaced 16". How should I approach this?

I would use one more skid, so your centers are 40" instead of 60 - this will put your 2x4 joists on a stronger base, which will help with the added weight of the floated floor resting on them. Then, if you put your upper floated floor joists on 24" centers you will be a foot shorter on span than maximum by placing pucks over every THIRD one of your 16" spaced LOWER joists. This will give better compression of the pucks, so they will work better for isolation. (You want between 20-50% compression for best isolation - any spring is only a spring when it is NOT at or near its limits) You will also want to double your floor joists around the perimeter, so they can take the weight of the extra panels inside and out (and the heavier ceiling construction... Steve

Alrighty, so before this weekend i'll pick up an extra 4x4. And the extra floor joists, how would I do that? Instead of having one 2x4 at the end of each perimeter, fasten another one right next to it? I have attached a picture of my understanding. So if my picture is correct, i'll go ahead and fasten an additional 2x4 each side as well as an additional skid. Also, four concrete piers for each skid instead of one. Also another little basic question, for the concrete piers on each of of each skid, there will be a little bit of overhang of the entire foundation on the otherside of it, is that ok? Thanks and I owe you something once I finish all this definitly :D

I think you got your dimensions turned around a bit there - I'll need a while to finish it, but I'm working on a more detailed plan for your floor, etc - probably be later Thursday before I get time to finish it. Meantime, for your first floor (up to the pucks) you'll need a total of 16 pier blocks, 4 12' 4x4's, 12 10' 2x4's, and at least 10 sheets of 3/4" OSB - you will want a couple extra 2x4's right away, to use as a straight edge guide for ripping some of the OSB sheets - you don't want ANY of the seams for one layer to coincide with those of the second layer, so you'll be ripping 16" off the second layer's sheets (one joist section) and then adding that piece back at the other side of the floor (do this on the second layer) - you will also need to do that in the other dimension as well, for the same reason. It's best if you draw a plan using two different colored pencils, so you make sure you have no seams lined up from one layer to the next. You'll also want enough "liquid nailz" construction adhesive to glue the first layer onto the joists as well as nail them - the tighter, the better. I hope to get time tonight to finish the drawing, this will all make more sense when you see it... Steve Oh, and any gratitude you wish to express - just use the "make a donation" button at the top of the forum, you'll be helping keep the site going for others, so everybody wins... Steve

knightfly wrote:

I think you got your dimensions turned around a bit there - I'll need a while to finish it, but I'm working on a more detailed plan for your floor, etc - probably be later Thursday before I get time to finish it. Meantime, for your first floor (up to the pucks) you'll need a total of 16 pier blocks, 4 12' 4x4's, 12 10' 2x4's, and at least 10 sheets of 3/4" OSB - you will want a couple extra 2x4's right away, to use as a straight edge guide for ripping some of the OSB sheets - you don't want ANY of the seams for one layer to coincide with those of the second layer, so you'll be ripping 16" off the second layer's sheets (one joist section) and then adding that piece back at the other side of the floor (do this on the second layer) - you will also need to do that in the other dimension as well, for the same reason. It's best if you draw a plan using two different colored pencils, so you make sure you have no seams lined up from one layer to the next. You'll also want enough "liquid nailz" construction adhesive to glue the first layer onto the joists as well as nail them - the tighter, the better. I hope to get time tonight to finish the drawing, this will all make more sense when you see it... Steve Oh, and any gratitude you wish to express - just use the "make a donation" button at the top of the forum, you'll be helping keep the site going for others, so everybody wins... Steve

I was actually going to use screws instead of nails and making sure I use wood glue everywhere.

Glue and screws are cool, but for the under framing liquid nailz and real nails are faster, and will be plenty solid - here's the next installment of basic drawings... Steve Oh, forgot to mention - when measuring for joist positions, do NOT measure each individual spacing - the cumulative error can throw you off by quite a bit. Instead, hook the tape measure on one end, they come with marks for 16" centers - just mark 3/4" shorter than each 16" marker(on the tape) til you get to the end.IOW, mark at 15-1/4, 31-1/4, 47-1/4, etc - these will be your straight lines, then the "X's" will go to the right of those lines (if you're measuring from left "0" to right...

alright cool i'll print that out, thanks. and one more thing, is there anything else I can use other than tyvek?

There are other similar materials, all billed as "house wrap" - did you have something particular in mind, or can't find tyvek, or too expensive? You might be able to use 30 pound roofing felt, but under a floor it's difficult to find a way to seal between rows since the stuff is only about 3 feet wide. Maybe if you overlapped it by 6-8 inches it would be OK... Steve

I don't think lowes or home depot carries tyvek. Unless there are certain types of shops that do?

and the covering would cover the entire span of 10x12 to protect against moisture correct but it has to be sealed?