slab or floating floor?

ok guys, i read through a bunch of posts about hangars, and i am going to hang them on the ceiling joists as opposed to building a separate frame inside the room to hang them. i understand that the isolation would suffer a bit, but in my situation i think that is ok. but i would like to know... would it be better to: a. use springs b. use metal straps (plummers tape) or chains also, is it better to: a. fasten the chains/springs into the wood before the drywall, and then drywall around the chains/springs or b. put the drywall up and then screw through the drywall into the wood in order to hang the bass hangars riff, i am in no position to give advice on this stuff... but probably your best bet is to start your own thread after reading other threads as much as you can. i floated my floor but it really added to the bottom line, learning curve and time schedule. i hope it's worth it... i haven't finished yet but already having floating floors is a great selling point. most people don't know what that means but it sounds cool as hell. :) 8)

the_riff - I see by the lack of a location that you've missed at least a few points in the forum's guidelines - not the least of which is the fact that the first few links mentioned as necessary reading would answer several of your questions - check it out - http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3231 If you follow ALL the bolded points, it will help quite a bit with your questions (and probably raise a few more :wink: ) Steve

for hanging hangars in an framed ceiling, is it better to: a. fasten the chains/springs for the hangars into the wood before the drywall, and then drywall around the chains/springs or b. put the drywall up and then screw through the drywall into the wood in order to hang the bass hangars any thoughts? :lol:

Drywall first, then use long enough screws to penetrate the framing by at least an inch. http://www.stanleyfasteners.com/catalog ... h36-5.html I'd use something similar to the PS 604, fastened into the drywall/framing with 5/16" lag bolts - drill into the framing thru the gypsum (a good studfinder will help if you're not exactly sure where center is) using a 3/16" bit, then drill a relief in the same hole that's a bit less deep than the smooth part of the lag (if there is a smooth part), put a good-sized daub of caulk in/around the hole, put the lag screw thru the bracket and tighten. You want a lag that's about 1-1/2" longer than the thickness of your wallboard. I'd use chain for hanging; you may need some "quick links" to connect to the angle. If this frame is part of your OUTER leaf of containment, you'll get some flanking. If it's part of you INNER leaf, probably not much at all... Steve

drill a relief in the same hole that's a bit less deep than the smooth part of the lag

many thanks steve! but could you please explain to this fool what the above sentence means? what's a relief? :oops:

AndrewMc wrote:

floating the floors is a question of expense, you certainly will get better isolation by floating the floors, mainly between rooms inside the building, but of course it is more work and expense. If I had to choose one room to float it would be probably the tracking room, but you could always just float the drums within the room. I can tell you though that even without floating floors - if you build the walls correctly there isn't any chance that your neighbors will hear anything 100 feet away - they wouldn't hear anything even if they were 20 feet away stood on their porch.

If you go over to www.studiotips.com and check out the calculators. You can determine what kind of system and how much of it you should use. You may be better off not floating your floor in some cases, if you do not do it correctly. If the space is small enough, it won't make a difference at all. Not enough to justify the expense.

please explain to this fool what the above sentence means? what's a relief? Why, it's Alka Seltzer, of course :wink: All seriousness aside, if you look at most lag screws you see a smooth part just below the head that's full thickness (for a 5/16" lag screw, this portion is actually 5/16" thick) - this part has no threads, and other than sideways (shear) force it has no holding power. IF the hole isn't large enough for this part of the screw, you have a really hard time driving the screw in all the way without either a lot of force or splitting the wood. To get around this, you should drill a pilot hole that's almost as deep as the screw is long - this hole should be the same diameter as the SMALLER part of the screw, NOT counting the threads that stick up. This gives good holding power without splitting the wood. Then, unless the lag screw is really short, there will be the full size part I mentioned in the previous paragraph - for best fit and tightening ease, you should use a larger diameter bit and drill just the depth of the SMOOTH part of the lag screw, so this part doesn't bind when you drive the screw. I normally set up two drills for this; one with the smaller, pilot bit and one with the larger bit (and a depth stop, either an adjustable rod or a set-screwed collar around the bit. Otherwise, the larger bit will grab and before you know it your entire hole is too big for the threads to grab. NOt good. Smaller wood screws can be done with one "everything" bit, that drills pilot hole, relief, and countersink area (for flat head screws) all in one pass - but as far as I know there's not such a beast for lag bolts, the pilots I have stop at #12 screws. Here's an illustration of what I mean... STeve

awesome, thanks for the clarification. i will have another question about this as things progress, but drywall comes first. regarding the drywall, the reference section says that 1st layer should be vertically mounted, then the 2nd layer should be horizontally mounted. is it ok to horizontally mount BOTH layers as long as the seams are offset? are there any disadvantages sound-wise to 2 horizontal layers? thanks again!! :lol:

I have often wondered that... I'll be interested in the answer.

I can't think of any obvious things sound-wise, as long as seams are offset by a couple feet in BOTH axes; main thing is that gypsum wallboard has different bending strengths in long and short axes so it makes for a stronger leaf by rotating layers. Also, the increased rigidity of the overall leaf would lessen the chance of any of the mudded infield joints cracking over time... Steve

Yeah -- I guess it is all about strength. After all, plywood's layers are rotated for a reason, huh? :roll:

thanks for the great advice! what you're saying makes perfect sense, and where possible i will most definitely rotate layers. but it's comforting to know that it is not my only option, since vertically mounting panels will be very difficult in some places without creating many seams.

jeffjazz wrote:

vertically mounting panels will be very difficult in some places without creating many seams.

Why is that? Are you aware that drywall comes in many sizes -- much more than what the friendly neighborhood home improvement warehouse carries? :roll:

hey there sactown! at 8' high on the wall, i ran 2x6 beams across the room at 24" centers to hold the false ceiling of roxul and to offer support while doing ceiling work. so it is difficult to thread the drywall vertically through them, even smaller pieces. it's much easier to hang the drywall horizontally on the ceiling. if i wanted to go vertical for the first layer, i can always just unscrew the 2x6s when doing the ceiling, but i just wanted to know if it is absolutely necessary.

For a ceiling, it would be MORE advisable to rotate layers; otherwise, you're likely to get "cupping" of the drywall (wavy surface), because of the difference in bending strength in long dimension vs. short dimension. So if looks are the least bit important, I'd try to find a way to do it the standard way... Steve

many thanks again! i will do my best in the name of proper studio design!!!

Ok, i have a wiring question but i'll ask it here since my situation is here. I can get a damn good price on proco mic cables, so i am considering using running 16 individual cables between the CR and TR instead of one 16 channel snake. I'll run em through a pvc conduit and that way i can upgrade later. any thoughts on this? can you recommend me a place to find a wall plate or should i go about making it myself out of wood or metal? thanks!

Conduit will need multiple bends and stuffing in both ends or it will become an "organ pipe" as well as a flanking path. Are you looking for XLR wall plates, or TRS? Steve

Conduit will need multiple bends and stuffing in both ends or it will become an "organ pipe" as well as a flanking path.

gotcha! should i paint the pvc conduit with that quietcoat stuff (elastomeric compound) to dampen it further? i am looking for xlr wall plates... i'm not too sure how the neutrik d series works... are they just fasteners, or do they come with the xlr already wired? i am just looking for holes and fasteners not the xlr attached. i found this at studio tips: http://www.middleatlantic.com/rackac/ch ... hassis.htm thoughts??

While an elastomeric paint may reduce the actual pipe's ringing, the main culprit would be the actual air column; only way to stop that is to plug the pipe. Most likely doing BOTH would work best. Neutrik - do you mean http://www.neutrikusa.com/content/Produ ... 204_269621 These are for PCB mounting, ??!? Steve

steve, forgive me for lack of jargon... what is pcb? particle board? :oops: lemme explain what i'm looking for: i've never soldered before and i won't need any cable run longer than 25' so prefab snakes w. mogami cable is the way to go in my estimation after reading up on this site and studiotips. i'd rather try to get the in-wall stuff correct now than have to mess with it later. on the control room side i will just directly connect the cables (with strain relief) to the appropriate preamps as i don't have tons of equipment to justify a patch bay right now. it is the tracking room side that i need a solution for. on the tracking room side i want to minimize the wall penetrations, which makes me think that a chassis or stage box is the way to go... but i haven't seen a prefab end solution with studio-quality wiring. all i could find are live sound reinforcement quality stuff w. the braided shield not foil but that's not really what i want. what would you recommend? i really am totally green in this area... :oops:

Sebring, welcome to the board; Jeff's right, your own thread is the way to go. It's just too difficult for us to keep all the details of each member's situations in mind when threads get into multi-user status - so when you start your own thread, I'll delete these last couple of posts and answer yours... Jeff, sorry for the confusion - PCB stands for Printed Circuit Board - that series of Neutrik appears to be designed for mounting on a printed circuit board, so not a good candidate for other wiring methods. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any foil shielded studio grade pre-made snakes - maybe Aaron is, I think he's done more recent install work than I have. If he doesn't chime in here, you may want to post this question in the Installation and Wiring forum. Not sure what your timetable is, but I've been considering doing a few pix and a tutorial on soldering - there is apparently a need for something like that, likely in the Installation/Wiring forum. I seriousl doubt I'll get to that soon enough for you however; but if you decide you want to "roll your own", I can help you get started - including the choice of a usable soldering station, the best solder for the job, and some things to do in order to gain the few skills necessary to get a good job... Steve

knightfly wrote:

Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any foil shielded studio grade pre-made snakes - maybe Aaron is, I think he's done more recent install work than I have. If he doesn't chime in here, you may want to post this question in the Installation and Wiring forum.

Ok, this caught my eye. I'm sure you remember my current thread in the Installation and Wiring forum about premade snakes and DIY. I don't know how to solder yet and needed 24 channels with lengths of around 30 feet which took me out of the consumer level premade snakes. I re-arranged my studio layout to get me to the 20 foot range for the majority of my patchbay snake needs (though not all) but maybe I am missing an entirely different point here? Foil shielded vs braided? I was also considering using a live sound snake at one point just for the additional XLR microphone needs - 8 channels directly plugged into my Ramsa board with the stage box out in the live tracking room on the floor. I ended up NOT going that route and got instead an 8 channel XLR snake that I happened to find (brand I had not heard of before!) that happened to be the 30 feet I needed. The live room ends will terminate to HOSA mini XLR patchbays mounted in the wall in a sort of wall panel that we are "building out" from the wall for all the patchbays to be mounted in the live room. But what if I had gone with my original idea of using a stagebox? Again, what more should I know about the real difference in the foil vs braid and the potential problems of using a stagebox style live snake between rooms?

knightfly wrote:

Not sure what your timetable is, but I've been considering doing a few pix and a tutorial on soldering - there is apparently a need for something like that, likely in the Installation/Wiring forum. I seriousl doubt I'll get to that soon enough for you however; but if you decide you want to "roll your own", I can help you get started - including the choice of a usable soldering station, the best solder for the job, and some things to do in order to gain the few skills necessary to get a good job... Steve

Gosh, yes. A tutorial with pics and step by step guides, along with your personal choices for materials and tools would be wonderful. I know I'm not the only one out here that is inexperienced and would like to gain this knowledge. That's a great idea and I do hope that you find the personal time to put something like that together.

Just a quick blurb on cabling for all interested parties, then I really have to give up and grab some sack time (It's 2 am here) - For audio cables, there are several choices in each part of the cable; which you choose should depend on what you intend to do with the cable, and how viciously :? - There are pluses and minuses for each choice, I'll try to run them down from memory - Sheath - (the outer covering that protects and insulates the cable) this can be EPDM or Neoprene or other rubber, or any of several synthetics including PVC (the typical grey plastic) and probably a dozen other types of plastic - EPDM and neoprene are very tough, fairly flexible and an absolute BITCH to strip without damaging the internal wires - but the toughness part helps them hold up to hard stage use. Shield - this is there to prevent hum and interference from getting into the signal wires, so ideally should be 100% coverage - meaning no gaps or holes in the shield. A very small gap can allow RF interference into the signal wires; lower frequencies require a larger hole before the shield doesn't work. There are at least three main types of shield used in audio cables - the worst performing, shield-wise, is a spiral wrapped stranded wire shield - this type opens and closes lots of gaps in shielding when the wire is flexed, and typically only gives around maybe 85-90% coverage. The only good thing about this type shield is its ease of termination when attaching connectors. Next best from a shielding standpoint, and BEST from a stage use standpoint, is braided shield - this is the same stranded wires, but the shield is actually braided around the core of the cable, and then the outer sheath is applied around the whole thing. A braided shield is pretty flexible, gives maybe 95% shield coverage, and is a real PITA to hook up in connectors. I, being an old fart, have a set of specially made "extractors" that make using braided shield only a MINOR PITA - but I did a google search a few weeks ago on these, and apparently they've dropped off the face of the earth. If anyone wants to look, they're called Little Joe Lead Extractors - my set consists of 4 different sizes, and they work on either twisted pair or coax cable. They are basically just a modified hypodermic needle, with a LARGE gauge "needle" and a plunger that pushes anything OUT of that needle - you strip the outer sheath, slide the "needle" over the center insulator (or wires), squeeze the shield tight against the outer barrel of the "needle", and push the plunger - this pushes the wire out through the braided shield right where you finished stripping the insulation, so now the shield is a third (or second) wire, which you pull tight and form into a braided wire and connect it to your ground terminal. The third type of shield is best for wires in studios which won't be moved around; it's a foil shield, and it's wrapped around the conductors in a spiral wrap, but the spiral overlaps itself so there is no loss of coverage; Foil shielding has typically 100% coverage, and you attach it to the connector with a bare wire that is run between the foil and the outer sheath - since this wire is in contact with the foil for the full length of the cable, you get a good contact and the entire cable stays shielded. The downside of foil shield is that it doesn't like to be flexed a lot, and it's normally used inside a PVC sheath so this type cable isn't good for stage use. It is, however, the easiest cable to work with. Other things to watch for in audio cable - capacitance per foot. This is especially true of "semi-pro" gear which typically has unbalanced connections, or if they're balanced they're still not true LOW impedance transmission lines, because the INPUTS don't load the source to a true 600 ohm impedance like a transformer input does. What that means is that, with a loop impedance that's several thousand ohms, a small amount of capacitance can make a noticeable difference in high frequency response by creating an RC (Resistance/Capacitance) filter that "rolls off" the highs just like the tone control in a guitar. Some audio cable doesn't even LIST a capacitance value; those that do are all over the map - really good audio cable may have as little as 15-20 picofarads per foot of capacitance, 110 ohm AES digital audio cable has typically only 10-15 pF per foot, and lots of high end mic cable has up to 60-80 pF per foot. The longer your cables, the more this matters - enough capacitance over a fairly long cable run can make you turn up the treble control by maybe 10-12 dB; when you do that, you also "turn up" any high frequency noise, such as hiss, so your sound suffers from bad signal-to-noise. Do this with ALL the channels in a 24 input board, and it gets unbelievably bad. This is why more people are using the AES digital cable to wire semi-pro studios - when you have 1000 feet or more of cable, all that extra capacitance can be very noticeable, and not in a GOOD way. OK, I lied; this isn't quick or short at all... :cry: Just some quick things - solder. I try ONLY to use Eutectic solder - it has a slightly lower melting point but most importantly, Eutectic solder's components (tin and lead) both melt at the exact same temperature so the solder has a very narrow "pasty" range, which means that your joints will have much less likelihood of failing due to physical movement during the phase change from liquid to solid. The following page explains this better - http://www.tpub.com/content/constructio ... 50_118.htm Soldering iron - for almost all cable work, a 40 watt iron is plenty - if you can afford a temperature controlled soldering station, your cables will be more consistent and reliable. I find that a 700 degree chisel tip works best for almost everything. Cleaning the tip before every joint makes things go smoother and more reliable. This is already starting to turn into a small book, and we're nowhere NEAR done; (other than my energy, that is :cry: ) As I get time, I'll add to this (and probably move it to the Installation/Wiring forum) - for now, gotta go crash... Steve

jeez, man i guess the only way to go is to DIY and solder everything. I looked into the AES digital cable and do you know if their digital cable snake is foil sheilded or should i go with all individual lengths? thanks again! your above post has definitely helped make things a bit less frightening... and i'm eagerly anticipating your soldering tutorial. for now i'm having trouble finding a drywall guy who will come and rock the ceiling. every drywall guy i talked to so far completely disagrees with hanging one layer vertically along the studs and the second layer horizontally. they won't even take the job... "what do you do? you play in a band. well, i've been doing drywall for 25 years... i don't tell you how to play your guitar do i?" is the usual response. :roll: