New home build, suggestions? Am I on the right track?

Hello all, this is my first post to the forum, I've scanned and researched through here on and off for many years now but am now setting up a control room and live room and I wish to take this setup a little more seriously than I have done in the past. Firstly I'd like to say a huge thank you to John, all the moderators, contributors and everyone onboard that have made this forum such a wealthy vault of knowledge and help. Amazing job, keep it up!! Secondly, I'd like to use the horse bashing smilie... :horse: ... I have no idea what it means but I felt the urge... I actually like horses... Anyway... Im setting up a control room and live room (for now I'll concentrate on the control room) for the purpose of producing and mixing tracks of a mixed genre. Mostly a very acoustic, folky style of music but on occasion something a little bigger and heavier in the elec guitar and drums side of things. My main goal is to build an 'as even as possible' control room, and a versatile small live room with the main content being acoustic guitar, vocals, strings, the odd percussion and brush kit too. The property is a rental, and I'll be here for the next couple of years, however, being a much older property, my very cool landlord is happy for me to do whatever :-) (whatever being anything that can be filled and painted... So no knocking down walls or pulling out built in wardrobes!.... Dang it!) I'll start with the control room. Below is a sketchup of the room as I plan to attack it. The dimensions are (LxWxH in Meters) 4.35x2.75x2.43 (bit of a close ratio on the WxH :( ) There are built in wardrobes (included in the above dimensions), these are simply a timber framing with thin painted balsawood separating the sections. The orientation of the room is kinda restricted to how I have in the plan due to the window, door and wardrobe. It's the most symmetrical way with the exception of the window (which I plan on covering). The floor is a low cost laminate over carpet (timber below that) and the walls are plasterboard over timber joists against a red brick external wall (a Melbourne classic in the suburbs!) It's a small space so I wanted to utilize the wardrobe space for a combination of corner traps, superchunking and hangers at the mix end for the low end and some mid high absorbers (rockwool on 6mm mdf framed with a material cover) at points down the room, these are from an old build and hang from hooks about an inch off the wall so are very easy to move and shift around as needed. The doorway leads to a hallway, with a bathroom being the closest room (other side of the left hand wall) and the planned live room beyond that (further is other bedrooms and a very supportive/understanding girlfriend!). There is also a small ducted heating/cooling vent (130mmx330mm on the floor underneath the window). My plan is not too much focused around isolation as the nearest neighbours are about 40m away in brick townhouses and I simply can't do anything Major being a rental. At the rear of the room I have a 2 seater couch and planned on using floor to ceiling traps using the superchunking method (had great results in the past) and some form of high end absorption on the back wall (auralex, studio foam or a broadband absorber if needed, etc.). I will also be hanging a cloud consisting of a timber frame cradling studio foam above mix position. My questions here relate to: Soffit mounting: I'm currently using Adam A7 monitors, absolutely love them and would love to hear them soffit mounted. But is it worth mounting 6.5 inch speakers? I'd be using Barefoot's method (below) as I plan on upgrading these soon anyway... or at least adding a sub for now.. (Future topic!) http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=718 Hangers: Being a small room I don't have much space to place some big hangers as suggested in micmic's thread and John's suggestions (http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12365) but my thoughts are that by keeping the panels the same mass and just changing the dimensions to fit the space (namely under the screen), would this have the same/positive effect? The window: Although this leads to a nice view of my yard (and allows me keep track of what the puppy is destroying out there!) I wanted to board this somehow and leave a reflective finish to further treat in symmetry with the opposite wall... Any suggestions on this? I've in the past boarded a window using 12mm mdf with rockwool and a material finish, basically creating a massive mid high absorber that was a little too much to my ears in the end, kinda deadened the room a bit too much! I know I could use a reflective surface under the finish material but here I'm trying to find as much symmetry as possible. The edge of the window is around where the first reflections are so hanging absorption half over the wall/window would look a little funny. Those are the main points that send are kinda keeping me from finalizing a plan... I'm eager to get into the build as I've got projects pending but I'm holding them back as I don't want to rush as I have done in the past. I've become a firm believer in that, since spending many hours fighting mixes and the room in my last space! Kinda takes the fun out of it! My budget for this room is an absolute max of about 1.5k, however, I obviously would like to spend a lot less!! Any suggestions or guidance would be greatly appreciated, I feel I'm on the right track but would love to hear opinions if anyone thinks I'm not... (or indeed if I am!) Thanks a whole bunch of heaps, Adam. edit: forgot some points.. :oops:

Hi Adam, and welcome! :) Great first post, by the way! It's not too often that newcomers do their homework and post completely, like you did! :thu: (By the way, the "dead horse" smilie comes from the saying "flogging a dead horse", meaning that someone is still going on and on about an issue that has already been discussed and put to rest completely. In other words, the subject is dead and doesn't need to be brought up yet again, so if someone does want to bring it up and carry on talking about it, they are "flogging a dead horse".)

My main goal is to build an 'as even as possible' control room, and a versatile small live room with the main content being acoustic guitar, vocals, strings, the odd percussion and brush kit too.

Great! You have your goal clear, and it is reasonable and do-able!

my very cool landlord is happy for me to do whatever

Double great! Lucky you. Not many renters get even that limited freedom. Some aren't even allowed to put a single nail in the wall, so they end up having to make self-supporting treatment.

The dimensions are (LxWxH in Meters) 4.35x2.75x2.43 (bit of a close ratio on the WxH)

Yup. The ratio is not too heartwarming. In fact, on one of the common ratio calculators it is listed way down low in 24th place, as "24) A worst case scenario ..." However, all is not lost. Ratios are a bit over-rated anwyay, and you don't need to adjust yours much to get a big improvement. For example, dropping the ceiling to 2.31 m jumps you to 6th place on that list, at "6) Louden's 2nd best ratio". There might be other good ones in the region, maybe from making the room a bit shorter. You'll have to play around a bit, to find out. You say you can't knock down walls or ceilings, but you can hang things, so maybe hard-backed cloud help you improve your ratio. But like I say: they are over-rated, and you don't need to go nuts. Just stay away form the really bad ones, get somewhat close to a good one, and that's all you need to do. Also, since you are doing soffits, that changes the average room length anyway, so it might not be as bad as it seems.

The orientation of the room is kinda restricted to how I have in the plan due to the window, door and wardrobe. It's the most symmetrical way with the exception of the window (which I plan on covering).

It looks like you have chosen the best possible layout and orientation, so that's fine.

It's a small space so I wanted to utilize the wardrobe space for a combination of corner traps, superchunking and hangers at the mix end for the low end

It is possible to do some of that, but not really the way you have it planned right now. For example, you can't really use the space directly behind the speaker for hangers, as there won't be enough room. But you can use John's method, with hangers below the shelf that the speaker sits on.

some mid high absorbers (rockwool on 6mm mdf framed with a material cover) at points down the room, these are from an old build and hang from hooks about an inch off the wall so are very easy to move and shift around as needed.

Those sound good. But you'll probably need more than just the treatment you mentioned. Theoretically, you need 295 sabins of absorption in that room to meet ITU/EBU recomendations. That implies 295 square feet of open window, which is about 28 square meters. The entire surface area of the full room (all four walls, plus ceiling and floor) is only 54 m2, so in theory you need at least 50% of that covered in absorption. Your floor takes up 11 m2, so the remaining surfaces (wall and ceiling) only give you 43 m2 to play with. The window looks like another 3 m2, the soffits are maybe another 4 or so. Allowing for doors and other thins, you probably don't have much more than about 30 to 35 m2 available, so practically all of your room surfaces will need absorption, in one form or another. I'm looking at my crystal ball, and I see a lot more panels in your future! :)

At the rear of the room I have a 2 seater couch and planned on using floor to ceiling traps using the superchunking method (had great results in the past) and some form of high end absorption on the back wall (auralex, studio foam or a broadband absorber if needed, etc.).

I'd go with a very thick layer of absorption across the entire surface of that wall. At least 4" of fiberglass or mineral wool, spaced at least 4" away. Or maybe angled, so it is closer to the wall at the bottom and further away at the top. I'd also cover both that and your superchunks with plastic, thin wood, or perf panel of some type (maybe), to not kill the high end too much.

I will also be hanging a cloud consisting of a timber frame cradling studio foam above mix position

Make that cloud hard backed, and angle it, to help break up the vertical modes a little. Also, studio foam is expensive: plain old fiberglass or mineral wool insulation is much cheaper and just as effective. Of course, if you have the foam already then you might as well use it (assuming that it really is proper acoustic foam, and not the typical worthless "foam by mail" type, or packing foam, or mattress foam, or upholstery foam, or any other type of foam that won't work).

I'm currently using Adam A7 monitors, absolutely love them and would love to hear them soffit mounted. But is it worth mounting 6.5 inch speakers?

Yup! For SURE! A7's are great, and work very well soffit mounted, provided that they are mounted right and the soffits are built right.

as I plan on upgrading these soon anyway... or at least adding a sub for now.. (Future topic!)

Upgrade them to a pair of A8X (or maybe S3X-V, if you are feeling rich) , and add a Sub-10 (or Sub-12) and you'll be a happy, happy camper. :) But this is where the purists are allowed to chime in and say what a terrible idea it is to put a sub in a control room... as you said: future topic! Fun debate! :)

Hangers: Being a small room I don't have much space to place some big hangers as suggested in micmic's thread and John's suggestions (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12365) but my thoughts are that by keeping the panels the same mass and just changing the dimensions to fit the space (namely under the screen), would this have the same/positive effect?

Hangers are a poorly understood subject, with little science to back them up but plenty of evidence that they work. Nobody doubts that they are effective, but there just isn't much published research out there on HOW they work, or the theory behind them. That said, based on John's comments, it isn't the mass that matters, but rather the spacing and size. They should not be heavy: homasote is about 1/4 the density of MDF or plywood, and is very soft, self-damped, etc. It's not resonant at all, so that's not how they work. It seems to be something to do with impedance, and something to do with waveguides, so what matters is the size, spacing and arrangement, not the mass. In other words, make them roughly the same size as John does, and use his same principles for spacing. Your image shows a lot of very thin hangers placed very close to each other, but that's not the way John builds them, so I wouldn't do that. The way you have them in the cavity uner the video screen between the soffits looks much better.

I wanted to board this somehow and leave a reflective finish to further treat in symmetry with the opposite wall... Any suggestions on this?

You can board it up if you want, but you don't need to do that to get symmetrical reflections. You say the opposite wall is drywall, so there isn't much difference in how reflective the two sides are. Glass and drywall are pretty similar in reflection for most of the spectrum, and only get different at very low frequencies, where stiffness (rigidity) starts to matter. So there's no need to cover that window, especially considering you aren't interested in isolation. However, if you so still want to cover it, then one option would be to build a window plug that can be slipped into place and removed as needed. There's quite a few examples of plugs on the forum. One reason you might want to plug it, is to gain back that surface area for absorption.

I've in the past boarded a window using 12mm mdf with rockwool and a material finish, basically creating a massive mid high absorber that was a little too much to my ears in the end, kinda deadened the room a bit too much!

Yup! You should have made the rockwool thicker (at least 2") and covered it with plastic, thin wood or maybe even perforated panel (as needed), to make it more of a low and mid absorber, but not touching the highs to much. It's easy to have too much high frequency absorption in a room, but practically impossible to have too much mow frequency absorption, especially in a small room. So the trick is to put stuff in front of the low absorption to reflect the highs back into the room, and only let the lows through for treatment.

I know I could use a reflective surface under the finish material but here I'm trying to find as much symmetry as possible. The edge of the window is around where the first reflections are so hanging absorption half over the wall/window would look a little funny.

If the whole unit is going to be covered in cloth, then you could put deep absorption across the whole panel, and only cover it partially with the reflective "whatever". In other words, leave the section at the first reflection points uncovered, but cover the rest. You won't see the difference, since the cloth will hide it. Or you could make one half into a slot wall and leave the other half purely absorption, and do the exact same on the other side of the room. That would probably work rather well, actually.

I feel I'm on the right track

It sure looks that way! :) About the only other thing I'd add is to try to use the wall/ceiling corners for superchunks, to give you the extra bass trapping that you are going to need. Overall, looks like a fun project. - Stuart -

Stuart, Thank you, and may I say, you are a legend.. :D I'll have a good chance to digest that wealth of knowledge over the weekend after a few shows are out of the way... I'm really looking forward to it!! Funny you mention the s3x-v's I was looking into a pair and salivating at the idea recently till I saw the price :-( not this financial year unfortunately, :wink: However, the soffit mounting of the a7's is a keeper in the design and I'll take a good look into both the process and the effect on room ratios after that fact...

The ratio is not too heartwarming. In fact, on one of the common ratio calculators it is listed way down low in 24th place, as "24) A worst case scenario ..."

Can I ask... Which calculator are you referring to? I'd like to feed it a few scenarios (with some of the new designs - soffit and/or ceiling etc) and see what I find. Anyway, thanks heaps again, I have to run for now but I'll post again once I get a few more hours in the room and online. Rock on, Adam. PS: I've had my fun with the horse... I shall let him rest in peace!!

Can I ask... Which calculator are you referring to?

I like Bob Gold's calculator ( http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm ) as it gives you a large amount of very useful information. It's a bit intimidating at first, but very good. There are several others out there, that are also very good and easier to use. But beware of the ones that only show you axial modes: tangentials and obliques are also very important. Even though they are lower in energy and harder to excite, they still exist and still affect the room. So whatever calculator you use, make sure it considers all three types. - Stuart -

Hi Stuart, and all. Thanks for that. I've been going over a few different concepts given your info, and so far I'm confident in the direction that I can take this now! I've decided to shorten the room in length and also with 2 hard backed clouds in height. Given that I'm flush mounting the a7s (I'm using a 40 degree angle and a 80cm baffle width, 160cm height with an opening at the base of the structure for the hangers.) I've been doing a lot of research and found many of yours, Eric's and barefoot's discussions on a7s and adam's infamous angled cabinet. I can't say that I'm a fan of bringing the baffle around the box (only for aesthetics). So I would like to pose this question... Could I create a solid MDF corner to attach to the angled edges of the speaker creating solid right angle edge on these corners? (Therefore making the boxes a solid squared edge to be flush mounted). I realize that is blatantly taking the box of a reputable speaker designer and saying... "Nah... I want it square!!!" and slapping some Mdf on years of their R&D. But isn't that the same thing as bringing the baffle around those edges anyway? Catching the low frequencies and sending them along our own baffle instead? Maybe I should be asking this question as an addition to that thread. Let me know if I should shift it that way.... Anyways, back to the plan. I would love to use Johns soffit method, but as I'm planning on a speaker upgrade I'll stick to Thomas's design of decoupling the speaker and inner frame to the baffle and then go through the more comprehensive soffit method with newbies :-). To shorten the room I plan on using plywood and rockwool to fill the back 0.41cm of the wardrobe space. Given that I want the speaker baffle to end/start at the edge of the centre cavity, with a 40 degree angle, the back of the speaker won't really use the wardrobe space at all, also, in trying to keep myself in the 33-38% of the room. This puts my listening position at 35% (from the new wall) and with 40 degrees baffles I have a good equilateral triangle (give or take a head!). Most of the ideas are relatively clear in the sketchup below. What's not in the design so far, but will be in the room is: - Hangers going under the speaker shelf. - The treatment choice for the angled wall moving away from the speaker baffle. I'm not sure I'm ready to attack a slat resonator, that and Id rather test the results of the room to know what I need to tune out before embarking on a mathematics roller coaster! At this stage I plan on making them big broadband absorbers, filled with rigid rockwool and covered in a reflective plastic (with the exception of first reflection points), I don't want a repeat of my last dead control room! I also plan on this kind thing for the cloud (plywood rear) and the panel at the rear of the room. - The front cloud angle, I plan on angling this down toward the front wall (it was getting a little crowded in sketchup and I was having issues, so for this exercise it stays level!) - I haven't "gone to town" on the amount of absorption I'll be placing at this stage. Given the new dimensions. The new size of 3.94 x 2.75 x 2.1m is a massive jump from the "worst case" and puts me around that "6) 2nd best" you mentioned Stuart... Yay! I understand there are many factors that could throw me way off on my/the predictions/ideas... Hence the reason I look forward to the criticism and direction!! My main question at this point in time is.... The Baffle, I haven't in my sketch up included a separate outer wall (decoupled from the inner) for the baffle to mount on. I was originally planning on suspending it from the ceiling on springs and supporting it at the floor with a rubber base of the decoupling kind to keep it solid and and stable, but, I had not thought about space for the hangers... I'd guess they won't be very effective I build em and then cover them up with a floor to ceiling wall!! Are my options only to build an outer structure as well? Adam....

Ok, Had a thought about the baffle and shelf. Pics describe the idea, but I've basically dropped a part of the frame a bit and given the shelf legs, the speaker will but decoupled from the shelf via either my mopads or something similar and I'll use the pvc n' sand combo for the legs. I had a concern with the fact that it'll be sitting on a laminate floor which is known to have some movement with expansion and the like but I may play it safe and place the whole thing on a sheet of mdf or maybe even a thin concrete slab... This way I should have complete separation from the baffle wall which I'm now free to mount onto the frame!.... Correct? I've also decided to fill the space with insulation so I'll utilise a chicken wire ducting to the top to give the amps some convection lovin' :wink: I think I'm on the right track (swerving a little bit, but the right track nonetheless!!) Please let me know if otherwise. Thanks! :D

Given that I'm flush mounting the a7s (I'm using a 40 degree angle and a 80cm baffle width, 160cm height ...

What is the thing that is "160 cm high"? The speakers themselves are supposed to be 120 cm high, measured at the acoustic axis (not the top, bottom or center of the cabinet). Is it the baffle itself that measures 160 cm from top to bottom?

Could I create a solid MDF corner to attach to the angled edges of the speaker creating solid right angle edge on these corners?

I guess you could to that, but I don't know if I'd want to modify my actual speakers like that: resale value, and all of that... Acoustically, once the speakers are mounted in the soffit, it's the same thing regardless of how you do it, but I don't think I'd like to do anything to the actual speaker cabinets that I can't undo later if I ever decide to sell the, or use them for a different purpose.

the back of the speaker won't really use the wardrobe space at all,

Just checking one thing here: you will be sealing off the sides of the soffit volume, so that no sound gets into the center section of the closet, right? In other words, there will be some kind of substantial wooden "something" that separates the volume around the speaker itself, from the center section of the closet?

- The treatment choice for the angled wall moving away from the speaker baffle. I'm not sure I'm ready to attack a slat resonator, that and Id rather test the results of the room to know what I need to tune out before embarking on a mathematics roller coaster!

It's not that hard, and you don't really need to go nuts over the math: Just use John's "standard" spacing, and you'll be fine. That's tuned close enough, and is broadband enough, to work well for pretty much any small room. Then if it turns out that you do need to hit a certain frequency, you can just take off one or two slats and replace them with whatever new sizes are needed. (So use screws to attach them, not nails! :) ).

- The front cloud angle, I plan on angling this down toward the front wall

That sounds like it would be angled backwards! Or maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you mean. It is supposed to be angled such that the front edge (right above the speakers) is lower (closer to the floor) and the rear edge (above your head, but further back) is higher up (closer to the ceiling). IS that what you meant? - Stuart -

hiya Stuart, Thanks for the reply...

Is it the baffle itself that measures 160 cm from top to bottom?

Yup, exactly. - With the corner idea for the A7's I don't wish to do any any destructive editing (so to speak), a thin dbl side of tape or drop silicon maybe. So I can remove them in the future if need be. I'll knock up a couple and post some pics for an example.

there will be some kind of substantial wooden "something" that separates the volume around the speaker itself, from the center section of the closet?

This is a great point as I had completely forgotten to ask something regarding this. - Do I NEED to seal the cavity that the speaker is in? The idea of using Thomas's shelf with a decoupled baffle was to simplify and reduce the cost of the build till I got some larger monsters... I would have to mount the shelf on the inner frame (as opposed to the stand idea I posted) to get a completely sealed cavity and have to find another way to mount the baffle. - I don't know much about the slats but I'll do a bunch of research on them today, They do look good when done properly! I do have a fear though, Wouldn't I be using a reflective surface right about where my first reflections are going to be by making those walls slats??? I haven't looked at the reflection angles properly yet but will do so today as well.

It is supposed to be angled such that the front edge (right above the speakers) is lower (closer to the floor) and the rear edge (above your head, but further back) is higher up (closer to the ceiling). IS that what you meant?

Yup, exactly. I'm not being backward on this matter am I?? Thanks as always, Adam...

Well, Projects are coming in and I've unfortunately had to funnel monies in other directions :( The design phase of all this is much more of an undertaking than I imagined!!! That and I have mini arguments with Sketchups little quirks!! Don't get me wrong I'm really enjoying it but have to get something in there to at least get some work done. Great ideas and music are missing there opportunity! I've decided to complete the super chunks and broadband panel at the rear of the room first, along with boarding the wardrobe sections a the front. Which I will be doing a bit different than my last idea. For both the left and right and top sections of the wardrobe I'll be filling these with a standard insulation (Bradford Ceiling R6, or something of the sort) covered and sealed with 9mm Plasterboard where the doors would normally be. My aim here is to make sure that these spaces don't resonate. The Flush Mounting will have to take a back seat for a 'couple of few' weeks so I'll stick with the A7s on my desk stands and mopads till then. The next stage will be the 2 clouds - The 'overmix' cloud being much like the design used in sonolink's build, (which is a stunning and epic build btw, awesome job). - And a rectangular cloud over the rear couch. These will be hard backed to help bring the room ratios into a nicer playground and hopefully help even out the room a little bit. This as a starting point will put some treatment in the room and allow me to do some work in there in the mean time. I'll hang my old panels for spot treatment and I can use some old traps I built behind the desk against the corners of the panelled up wardrobe space for addition bottom control... ( :shock: ) I'll post a quick sketchup this evening, and start with some pics of this madness that I will be undertaking as of tomorrow!! I do have a couple of questions though, 1) Will the idea of boarding the wardrobe and filling the cavity with batts be enough to affect room ratio? I can't really do much with that space at all and figure that all the walls of this room are probably even less (plaster and insul) than what's going to fill the space. Good tact? Or a recipe for disaster? 2) I plan on using Bradford Soundscreen 1350x430x75mm (six per pack) 32.5kg/m2 in the traps at the back of the room. I've super chunked with this before and had great results. I've found this for about $35.50 a bag, through an ebay store pickup from bradford directly. Anyone know if there is any better or similar priced products in melbourne out there? I'm finding more and more that no one seems to include their kg/m2 in the data sheets/packs :( Anyways, have to run. Thanks in advance to all, wish me luck!! Adam...

A visual starting point... :shock:

Hey mate, this is a good read thanks for posting.

Thanks Xen, Both rooms are gonna be done in phases over a period of time n' I plan on building a bit of a diary, so, there'll be plenty more reading... And typing, and sketching... Drilling, cutting, hammering, testing, mixing, testing again, building again and typing, followed by some more reading...... Well, that's the plan anyways... :D

The design phase of all this is much more of an undertaking than I imagined!!!

:D :!: :!: Oh yeah! For sure. And the design is about 90% of the whole project. Hammers and nails is only about 10%...

I have mini arguments with Sketchups little quirks!!

so you only found the little ones, huh? The big ones are still hanging around, just waiting for you to be looking the other way, so they can pounce suddenly and devastatingly... :) Seriously, it is quirky for sure. What helps a lot is to group related geometry together into "components", and to duplicate those as needed. So select the six sides that make up a stud, for example, do "make component", and they now act as one. Then duplicate that as many times as needed, and if you adjust any one of the duplicates, they all change in the same way. Lots of other things that you'll figure out...

For both the left and right and top sections of the wardrobe I'll be filling these with a standard insulation ... covered and sealed with 9mm Plasterboard where the doors would normally be. My aim here is to make sure that these spaces don't resonate.

Ummm.... if you cover them and seal them, then you are FORCING them to resonate! You are creating a tuned resonant cavity, basically a membrane trap, and the tuned frequency will be set by the surface density of that plasterboard and the depth of the cavity. This is not a good plan if you want to stop it from resonating! Just leave off the plasterboard, and it will be fine like that.

And a rectangular cloud over the rear couch.

You might not need that: try the room first without it, and see how it goes. - Stuart -

Hi, It's really nice to read your all comments here about the home studio, Your comments show that you all have good interest because you have discussed about the each and every corner of the home and equipment. so I must say that must carry on you all because you all doing well.