Advices on Rec Studio design in Dominican Republic

I think you misunderstood me: Sealing is a GREAT idea, and will help a lot. But going beyond that, and trying to isolate more without building a room-in-a-room is not going to help you much more than you get by sealing.

i see

So, replace the louvers with fixed panes (thick laminated glass), seal everything you possibly can, and that will make a difference for sure, but you won't get much better than that by just adding more materials to the walls you already have. If you need more isolation after having sealed the room, then your best solution is "room in a room".

What about just adding drywall and dense fiberglass to the whole space in the windows, I mean all over the windows? I know it means no daylight, but I don't care much. I don't want to go through that hassle, it is easier for me to just cover them over completely with drywall and seal the contact points with caulk. what do you think?

One word of caution: Sealing your room will make it air tight. That's great, for isolation, but not so great for you: You need to breath! You need to consider ventilation, and from what I remember of the last few times I was in Santo Domingo, you'll also need air conditioning! But ventilation and A/C also imply breaking your seal, so you need to build silencer boxes to deal with that.

I have an air conditioning in the room, I'll see how that goes... Thanks

What about just adding drywall and dense fiberglass to the whole space in the windows, I mean all over the windows? I know it means no daylight, but I don't care much. I don't want to go through that hassle, it is easier for me to just cover them over completely with drywall and seal the contact points with caulk. what do you think

You can do that, yes. That's usually called a "window plug". If you search the forum, you'll find several examples of how to do that. It needs to be massive (very heavy), and needs to be sealed into the window frame, perhaps with rubber seals if you want to remove it, or caulk seals if you want it to be permanent. But I'd still replace those louvers with a pane of fixed glass if you do a plug.

I have an air conditioning in the room, I'll see how that goes...

Good! But you'll still need to get fresh air into the room, and exhaust stale air to the outside!!!! If you seal the room properly, it will be totally air-tight, with no place for air to come in or go out. That means that as you breathe, you'll use up the oxygen in the room, and increase the CO2 levels. After a while, you'll get a headache. If you stay longer, you'll pass out. And you could even die, if you stay in totally sealed room long enough. Split system air conditioners do not bring fresh air into the room, and they do not exhaust stale air outside. All they do is to cool the air, but they don't add oxygen, and they don't remove CO2. (And if you have a window-mounted air conditioner, instead of a split system, and it does have a fresh air vent, then there's not much point in sealing your room, since that vent breaches your isolation! ) - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

What about just adding drywall and dense fiberglass to the whole space in the windows, I mean all over the windows? I know it means no daylight, but I don't care much. I don't want to go through that hassle, it is easier for me to just cover them over completely with drywall and seal the contact points with caulk. what do you think

You can do that, yes. That's usually called a "window plug". If you search the forum, you'll find several examples of how to do that. It needs to be massive (very heavy), and needs to be sealed into the window frame, perhaps with rubber seals if you want to remove it, or caulk seals if you want it to be permanent. But I'd still replace those louvers with a pane of fixed glass if you do a plug.

I have an air conditioning in the room, I'll see how that goes...

Good! But you'll still need to get fresh air into the room, and exhaust stale air to the outside!!!! If you seal the room properly, it will be totally air-tight, with no place for air to come in or go out. That means that as you breathe, you'll use up the oxygen in the room, and increase the CO2 levels. After a while, you'll get a headache. If you stay longer, you'll pass out. And you could even die, if you stay in totally sealed room long enough. Split system air conditioners do not bring fresh air into the room, and they do not exhaust stale air outside. All they do is to cool the air, but they don't add oxygen, and they don't remove CO2. (And if you have a window-mounted air conditioner, instead of a split system, and it does have a fresh air vent, then there's not much point in sealing your room, since that vent breaches your isolation! ) - Stuart -

Hey thanks Stuart for your clarifications,. I am going to have to investigate about noise boxes around here. I did not think about it when I decided I want to seal everything in the room. I think I will have to seal over, I mean I am leaving the windows as it is now and install plugs over. or... I could install laminated glass as you suggest but let me ask you a few questions: Should I use the same method as the observational windows: 2 panels, one 1/4" thicker than the other and with a wide space between them?? Would that give me the same isolation as my 8 inches concrete wall? I would like to do that as day light is something I appreciate, but I don't know if I am gonna have to spend a lot more money than just installing windows plugs over. Anyways, if you know any specific link about ventilation please let me know Thanks a lot

hi people, an update of this slow process. I just spend 2000 dollars on someone who designed and built what you see in the pics for the TRACKING ROOM. He installed 2" fiber glass all over the air conditioner wall (covered with carpet) and the windows plug wall (covered with that nice rustic plywood) What you see below closer to the floor is a bass trap (that 's what he call it) covered with plywood. Before he covered all the fiberglass with plywood I could hear how the sound was absorbed, now that he covered with plywood I can hear all sort of reflections. I think that wood is defeating the whole purpose of a bass trap because I liked it better when it was uncovered. But i reallly don''t know much because there is still 5 hanging panels left to be installed tomorrow (2" fiber glass each). 3 of them in the ceiling and 2 in the other walls where the closet is. What you guys think of this wood covering stuff, Also, what do you think about this carpet ?? Thanks a lot, I still can make them change stuff around, cause I have not paid 50% of the job. sorry for bad english and please refer to the room dimensions in first post..... EDIT: I don't know why everytime I load pics they get submitted out of order!! sorry for the disorder EDIT 2: Ok, I started singing loud in the room and i can hear this very high pitched ringing/reflections. I don't like that. I remember I had this high pitched resonances when I recorded vocals in there without treatment.. damn it, I hope this whole work is just doing nothing . Please help

hello?

Recién me di cuenta que estás en la Republica Dominicana. ¿A lo mejor sería bueno continuar en español? Pero en el mientras-tanto, vamos a seguir en inglés.

He installed 2" fiber glass

2" is not very thick. And especially for a bass trap! It needs to be much thicker than that, and spaced away from the wall. That will only have some effect on the higher frequencies and some of the mids. It would probably be better to use 4", and lay it diagonally across that corner, instead of at the very small angle.

(covered with carpet)

:shock: :?: :?: :?: Why? What is the purpose of the carpet? In general, carpet does not have a lot of uses in acoustics.

Before he covered all the fiberglass with plywood I could hear how the sound was absorbed, now that he covered with plywood I can hear all sort of reflections.

I don't understand why he covered it with plywood: that sort of makes a membrane trap, put with a triangular cavity it will be very broadband and not very effective. And of course, it will reflect a LOT of highs back into the room. How thick is the plywood?

because there is still 5 hanging panels left to be installed tomorrow

What do you mean by "hanging panels"? The room doesn't seem to be big enough to need baffles.

What you guys think of this wood covering stuff,

There MIGHT be some reasons why you would want to cover a "bass trap" with plywood, but it doesn't look like any of them are valid in your room. Why did he need to make that entire box out of plywood? Is that supposed to be some type of tuned device? If so, what frequency is it supposed to be tuned to?

Also, what do you think about this carpet ??

Carpet laid on the floor is generally a bad idea: it leave the room sounding dull and muddy, since it absorbs highs but not mids or lows.

EDIT 2: Ok, I started singing loud in the room and i can hear this very high pitched ringing/reflections. I don't like that. I remember I had this high pitched resonances when I recorded vocals in there without treatment.. damn it, I hope this whole work is just doing nothing .

I don't understand the treatment method there at all. One entire wall done with 2" insulation is NOT a bass trap. A small angled "thing" at the bottom of the wall with a plywood cover is NOT a bass trap. There seems to be only one, very small bass trap, which is that oversized plywood frame above the window, but that too is covered with plywood! None of that makes any sense to me. I have never seen a room treated like that before. Or rather, I have never seen a room treated like that successfully! I would suggest that you download REW ("Room EQ Wizard") and use that to test your room, then post the data file here so we can look at it, and see what is wrong. I would suggest that you need proper bass traps, very large ones, without any plywood on them, in at least some of the vertical corners of the room. That room is not very big, so it will need a LOT of bass trapping, and I do not see any bass trapping at all there right now. What type of insulation is that? What is the density (kg/m3)? - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

Recién me di cuenta que estás en la Republica Dominicana. ¿A lo mejor sería bueno continuar en español? Pero en el mientras-tanto, vamos a seguir en inglés.

He installed 2" fiber glass

2" is not very thick. And especially for a bass trap! It needs to be much thicker than that, and spaced away from the wall. That will only have some effect on the higher frequencies and some of the mids. It would probably be better to use 4", and lay it diagonally across that corner, instead of at the very small angle.

yes there is a space behind the fiber in the wall where the air conditioner is and the other bass trap has 4" fiber glass

(covered with carpet)

:shock: :?: :?: :?:

Why? What is the purpose of the carpet? In general, carpet does not have a lot of uses in acoustics.

I don't know he says that what he uses in most studios...

Before he covered all the fiberglass with plywood I could hear how the sound was absorbed, now that he covered with plywood I can hear all sort of reflections.

I don't understand why he covered it with plywood: that sort of makes a membrane trap, put with a triangular cavity it will be very broadband and not very effective. And of course, it will reflect a LOT of highs back into the room. How thick is the plywood?

plywood covering bass traps is like 1/8" thick, and the plywood on the window plug is like half an inch.

because there is still 5 hanging panels left to be installed tomorrow

What do you mean by "hanging panels"? The room doesn't seem to be big enough to need baffles.

Acoustic panels which are going to be hanged, like those DIY panels, with 2" black theater fiber glass. they are going to be hanging in the ceiling and in the closet wall

What you guys think of this wood covering stuff,

There MIGHT be some reasons why you would want to cover a "bass trap" with plywood, but it doesn't look like any of them are valid in your room. Why did he need to make that entire box out of plywood? Is that supposed to be some type of tuned device? If so, what frequency is it supposed to be tuned to?

no idea

Also, what do you think about this carpet ??

Carpet laid on the floor is generally a bad idea: it leave the room sounding dull and muddy, since it absorbs highs but not mids or lows.

I knew that but I thought it was a different history on the walls

EDIT 2: Ok, I started singing loud in the room and i can hear this very high pitched ringing/reflections. I don't like that. I remember I had this high pitched resonances when I recorded vocals in there without treatment.. damn it, I hope this whole work is just doing nothing .

I don't understand the treatment method there at all. One entire wall done with 2" insulation is NOT a bass trap. A small angled "thing" at the bottom of the wall with a plywood cover is NOT a bass trap. There seems to be only one, very small bass trap, which is that oversized plywood frame above the window, but that too is covered with plywood! None of that makes any sense to me. I have never seen a room treated like that before. Or rather, I have never seen a room treated like that successfully! I would suggest that you download REW ("Room EQ Wizard") and use that to test your room, then post the data file here so we can look at it, and see what is wrong. I would suggest that you need proper bass traps, very large ones, without any plywood on them, in at least some of the vertical corners of the room. That room is not very big, so it will need a LOT of bass trapping, and I do not see any bass trapping at all there right now.

What type of insulation is that? What is the density (kg/m3)?

attached are the specs for this fiber... the one I bought is 96"x48"x2" ups... I could not attach it cause it is too big, so I uploaded it to sendspace (sorry). http://www.sendspace.com/file/idkwdc [/quote] thanks man for your time (i'm a mess with qoutes) also remember that is the TRACKING ROOM, not the control room!

thanks man for your time (i'm a mess with qoutes)

I think I fixed that! Your post seems to make more sense now. OK...

yes there is a space behind the fiber in the wall where the air conditioner is and the other bass trap has 4" fiber glass

That's still not enough. The insulation you are using does not have good low frequency absorption characteristics, so it needs to be very thick. Can you get any other type of insulation where you live? Maybe ordinary mineral wool, or fluffy fiberglass? I would suggest that you would have to build deep, wide "Superchunk" style bass traps in several corners, to get good low frequency absorption, and to help control your room modes.

I don't know he says that what he uses in most studios...

I wonder about those other "studios"... Have you ever been to one that he did? Does it sound good?

plywood covering bass traps is like 1/8" thick,

Theoretically, assuming that the depth of the cavity behind the plywood is about 6 inches (that's what it seems to be from the photos), the resonant frequency of that device is about 130 Hz. So in theory, that "bass trap" is absorbing roughly in the range 85 Hz to 170 Hz. I'd hardly call that a bass trap...

the plywood on the window plug is like half an inch.

If that plug is supposed to be stopping sound from getting out, then it isn't doing much! 1/2" of plywood is no much mass at all, and will not stop much sound.

Acoustic panels which are going to be hanged, like those DIY panels, with 2" black theater fiber glass. they are going to be hanging in the ceiling and in the closet wall

That makes no sense at all! Maybe you should ask this guy what the purpose of those is, what the principle of operation is, what frequencies they are intended to absorb, and how much they are intended to absorb.

I knew that but I thought it was a different history on the walls

It's the same anywhere. Carpet absorbs high frequencies quite well, absorbs a little bit of mid frequencies, and nothing at all of low frequencies. That is the exact opposite of what a small room needs. Small rooms need a LOT of low frequency absorption, a fair amount in the mids, and not very much at all in the highs. I'm not surprised that your room sounds bad.

attached are the specs for this fiber..

That stuff is fine for mids and highs, but not much use for lows. Maybe you can call the manufacturer, and ask if they have more detailed acoustic specifications, since those are not very complete. Also ask them what the density is (how much does 1 cubic meter weigh, or 1 cubic foot).

also remember that is the TRACKING ROOM, not the control room!

Yes, I realize that. And the principles are still the same: you still have modes that need taming, and you still have flutter echo that needs controlling, and you still have reflections that need dealing with, etc. The goals might be different, but the methods and principles are the same. I would really suggest that you download REW, and do a full acoustic analysis of that room, then post the data file here so we can look at it. - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

thanks man for your time (i'm a mess with qoutes)

I think I fixed that! Your post seems to make more sense now. OK...

yes there is a space behind the fiber in the wall where the air conditioner is and the other bass trap has 4" fiber glass

That's still not enough. The insulation you are using does not have good low frequency absorption characteristics, so it needs to be very thick. Can you get any other type of insulation where you live? Maybe ordinary mineral wool, or fluffy fiberglass? I would suggest that you would have to build deep, wide "Superchunk" style bass traps in several corners, to get good low frequency absorption, and to help control your room modes.

I don't know he says that what he uses in most studios...

I wonder about those other "studios"... Have you ever been to one that he did? Does it sound good?

plywood covering bass traps is like 1/8" thick,

Theoretically, assuming that the depth of the cavity behind the plywood is about 6 inches (that's what it seems to be from the photos), the resonant frequency of that device is about 130 Hz. So in theory, that "bass trap" is absorbing roughly in the range 85 Hz to 170 Hz. I'd hardly call that a bass trap...

the plywood on the window plug is like half an inch.

If that plug is supposed to be stopping sound from getting out, then it isn't doing much! 1/2" of plywood is no much mass at all, and will not stop much sound.

Acoustic panels which are going to be hanged, like those DIY panels, with 2" black theater fiber glass. they are going to be hanging in the ceiling and in the closet wall

That makes no sense at all! Maybe you should ask this guy what the purpose of those is, what the principle of operation is, what frequencies they are intended to absorb, and how much they are intended to absorb.

I knew that but I thought it was a different history on the walls

It's the same anywhere. Carpet absorbs high frequencies quite well, absorbs a little bit of mid frequencies, and nothing at all of low frequencies. That is the exact opposite of what a small room needs. Small rooms need a LOT of low frequency absorption, a fair amount in the mids, and not very much at all in the highs. I'm not surprised that your room sounds bad.

attached are the specs for this fiber..

That stuff is fine for mids and highs, but not much use for lows. Maybe you can call the manufacturer, and ask if they have more detailed acoustic specifications, since those are not very complete. Also ask them what the density is (how much does 1 cubic meter weigh, or 1 cubic foot).

also remember that is the TRACKING ROOM, not the control room!

Yes, I realize that. And the principles are still the same: you still have modes that need taming, and you still have flutter echo that needs controlling, and you still have reflections that need dealing with, etc. The goals might be different, but the methods and principles are the same. I would really suggest that you download REW, and do a full acoustic analysis of that room, then post the data file here so we can look at it. - Stuart -

hey thanks for that¡ wow man I already spent a lot of money on this fiber. ...and everything is installed already as you see in the pics. I have not paid him 40% of the job and I trusted his proposition which seems to be valid when he explained it to me. I think I am in serious trouble. Maybe there is some workaround with what is already there? I have never used EQ wizard and have no idea how to measure rooms, also I think it is too late because whatever the results, the money is already spent. Why do you say that cloud panels in the ceiling does not make sense? I have seen that a lot. Well, I believe tomorrow I will have this discussion with this guy but I have no way to make him understand that the room sounds bad. Anyways, thanks a lot I am a little overwhelmed right now and frustrated I will comeback when I have news...