Advices on Rec Studio design in Dominican Republic

welcome! it sounds like a couple of conflicting requirements - isolation and treatment. let's assume you don't need isolation since your budget is not going to be close to getting any significant isolation and treatment. on the treatment side, since you're keeping the bedroom a bedroom, you will need to make some choices - either squeeze in between the bed and the long wall opposite the closest (best symmetry for your room) or put your bed into the corner opposite the door and put the mix desk in front of the window (second best). then research this site for treatments using porous absorbers on first reflection points and ceiling clouds. on the end of the closet where there is space, fill that will insulation. on the windows, heavy drapes which can be bunched up even when closed to maximize absorption. in the live room, keep the carpet off and use some scattered absorbers on the ceiling to break up the floor-ceiling flutter. same window treatment as CR/bedroom. when you have things arranged, do some acoustic measurements to determine where you need additional absorption. if you want real isolation, you're going to need to increase your budget especially due to the glass windows and the solid structure which will likely conduct sound very well to other parts of the house.

gullfo wrote:

welcome!

Thanks for your fast response

it sounds like a couple of conflicting requirements - isolation and treatment. let's assume you don't need isolation since your budget is not going to be close to getting any significant isolation and treatment.

Ok, but would you please tell me what would be necessary for isolation in this case? I guess that the most important room to isolate is the Live room, Am i right? I have heard of people using thick plywood and filling it with sand to block incoming noise. Also, what about sealing the live room windows ?

on the treatment side, since you're keeping the bedroom a bedroom, you will need to make some choices - either squeeze in between the bed and the long wall opposite the closest (best symmetry for your room) or put your bed into the corner opposite the door and put the mix desk in front of the window (second best).

I like the first one cause I did not understand the second choice.

then research this site for treatments using porous absorbers on first reflection points and ceiling clouds.

What would be the first reflection points, how do I determine that? What are ceiling clouds made of?

on the end of the closet where there is space, fill that will insulation.

Isn't it going to block the bathroom?

on the windows, heavy drapes which can be bunched up even when closed to maximize absorption.

Can these heavy drapes be design so I can take it off when I want?

In the live room, keep the carpet off and use some scattered absorbers on the ceiling to break up the floor-ceiling flutter. same window treatment as CR/bedroom.

I don,t have a carpet there, that RED floor you see is brick mosaic. Can these scattered absorbers be constructed by hand?

when you have things arranged, do some acoustic measurements to determine where you need additional absorption.

By acoustic measurements you mean using the old real time analyzer with a flat mic and pink noise?

if you want real isolation, you're going to need to increase your budget especially due to the glass windows and the solid structure which will likely conduct sound very well to other parts of the house.

Please some ideas, I could increase my budget with time, I just need keep on working in my studio. Could I start working with the isolation when I am done with the acoustic treatment side? Or do they complement each other.? I am very sorry for my ignorance, I am starting to learn a lot, this is just the beginning for me. THANKS man!!

A few books that might help you:click here for some books Recommended reading here is John Sayers guide: http://johnlsayers.com/Recmanual/index.htm

xSpace wrote:

A few books that might help you:click here for some books Recommended reading here is John Sayers guide: http://johnlsayers.com/Recmanual/index.htm

ummm, I came here so I don't have to enter the very subjective world of acoustics. Actually I just need tips and advices for my particular spaces/rooms. While it is good for me to learn about this important aspect, there is just an overwhelming amount of conflicting-info and "acoustics myths" out there. Some people say carpet is good, other say it sucks because it makes your room sound dull. Some use foam or pink stuff, others say it doesn'tn do sh*t and can make your room worse An acoustic designer (which I cannot afford) came here the other day and told me that maybe my live room doesn't need bass traps, others say bass trap would be the most important. If I start reading maybe I am reading stuff my room doesn't even need as every room is totally different. So please, I would really appreciate if with a little patience you answer my questions, even if it's just straight answers, from there I compare advices from others and look around and read exactly about what I've been advised. THANKS A LOT

do you understand the meanings of isolation and acoustic treatment? isolation (insulation) of sound means to prevent the sound, either going in or coming out, from interfering with your recording or your neighbors. acoustic treatment means achieving the balance needed to obtain good recordings and to produce a mix which translates across different listening situations well. in general, most smaller rooms need bass trapping. in many situations, isolation is required in order to prevent external sounds and vibrations from spoiling the recording of a performance, or to prevent the neighbors from calling the police and shutting your down. the reading (esp the recmanual site) will help to understand the concepts and the terms and if you read the recmanual, it will help answer many of the questions you have in a way which is generally applicable to your situation. once you have a basic understanding and a position on what you think will work for you (or not), then we can start the process of discussing the various options which makes your situation unique. for isolation, given you need to construct additional and massive walls, ceiling, and floor to accommodate, it will exceed your budget as stated. from an acoustic treatment standpoint, it would be best to perform some acoustical measurements using something like Room EQ Wizard (REW) which is free (donationware) and runs on most OSes using a decent omni mic and following the fully documented directions included with the software. these measurements will help in terms of understanding what additional treatments might be needed and what options may be best given your budget.

ummm, I came here so I don't have to enter the very subjective world of acoustics. Actually I just need tips and advices for my particular spaces/rooms.

Well, perhpas you misunderstood the purpose of this forum: it is for people who want to learn how to build their own studios, themselves. The idea is that people learn the basics of acoustics then design what they think is good for them, and post the design here, along with any questions they have. The experts here will then answer the questions and maybe suggest modifications to the design. For people who you don't want to learn, or maybe don't have enough to time to learn, then it would probably be better to hire someone to do the design work for you, so you don't have to learn it all. Of course, that costs money. Folks here will give all their help for free to people who are doing their best to learn and build themselves, but nobody is going to design your studio and build it for you for free! You either have to do some work yourself in learning this stuff (so you can ask the right questions), or you have to pay someone to design your room professionally. If you would prefer to pay someone to do the design and/or the building for you, then just send an e-mail or private message directly to John.

While it is good for me to learn about this important aspect, there is just an overwhelming amount of conflicting-info and "acoustics myths" out there.

Yes, there sure is a lot of that on the internet, but you won't find any myths or conflicting info here. You see, this forum is based on the science of acoustics, and is run by a guy who has been recording, mixing, designing and building studios for decades, all over the world. There are several other folks here who do the same thing, and many others (like me) who spend time studying this stuff, reading scientific papers and serious books on the subject. So here you won't find myths and conflicts. Here you will find answers based on the science of acoustics, and decades of experience, form the very best people in the industry. In fact, we seem to spend a LOT of our time dealing with those myths, and explaining, over and over again, why they are garbage.

Some people say carpet is good, other say it sucks because it makes your room sound dull.

Carpet is frequency selective absorption. In other words, it absorbs some frequencies quiet well, others just a bit, and others not at all. And it is unpredictable: every piece of carpet has different characteristics, and even worse, they can change over time. (Except for proper acoustic carpet, of course, which is very different). So ordinary carpet is always a lousy choice, based on solid science. Anyone who tells you otherwise does not have a clue what they are talking about, and has never studied anything about acoustics, period. See? There's one myth busted for you, very simply. Forget carpet as treatment: it does not work predictably, and is next to useless for a serious studio.

Some use foam or pink stuff, others say it doesn'tn do sh*t and can make your room worse

Most types of foam are useless acoustically, since they are closed-cell. Open cell foam is good acoustically, but closed-cell is no use at all. Pink fiberglass is great acoustically. And yes, both foam and fiberglass CAN make your room sound bad, if they are not installed correctly, according to solid acoustic principles. On the other hand, they can make your room sound fantastic, if they are installed correctly, in the correct locations.

An acoustic designer (which I cannot afford) came here the other day and told me that maybe my live room doesn't need bass traps, others say bass trap would be the most important.

It all depends... Most small rooms need a LOT of bass trapping, but it all depends on what you are trying to do with the room, the diffusion already in the room, and many other factors. If you already had a professional designer in there, and he said you need bass trapping after examining the room, then I'd be inclined to listen to him! It sounds like he is giving you good advice.

If I start reading maybe I am reading stuff my room doesn't even need as every room is totally different.

That is true: all rooms are different, each has its own characteristics, and purpose, and each therefore needs its own design for treatment. You cannot just throw in s a few bits of foam, or glue carpet on the walls and egg crates on the ceiling at random, and expect to get a usable room! Your specific room has to be analyzed correctly, using the know principles of acoustics (which you can learn), then the isolation and / or treatment needs to be designed for that specific room, then it needs to be built correctly and carefully. But what you will be reading in those links that people were kind enough to give you is NOT about treatment for other types of rooms: it is about treatment for YOUR room. It teaches you the basic principles of acoustics, and those apply to all rooms on this planet. It teaches you the basics of how to isolate a room, and you do need isolation in yours, so it does apply. It teaches you the basics of how to treat a room, and you do need to treat yours, so it does apply. Everything in those links is applicable to your room, and you cannot, I repeat CANNOT, design and build your room successfully if you don't understand everythign in those links. So either you can read them and learn for yourself how to design your room, for free, or you can pay someone who already knows, and he will design your room for you. The choice is yours.

I would really appreciate if with a little patience you answer my questions, even if it's just straight answers,

We'll give you straight answers to straight questions, without any problem and totally free, but please don't expect us to do all the work for you, for nothing! That's not what this place is meant for. You need to learn the basics in order to ask the right questions. We'll help you with that learning too, provided that you are willing to learn. If you can't or don't want to learn it yourself, then pay someone else to do it. I'll answer some of the points in your original post tomorrow, but right now I have to get some sleep! - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

ummm, I came here so I don't have to enter the very subjective world of acoustics. Actually I just need tips and advices for my particular spaces/rooms.

Well, perhpas you misunderstood the purpose of this forum: it is for people who want to learn how to build their own studios, themselves. The idea is that people learn the basics of acoustics then design what they think is good for them, and post the design here, along with any questions they have. The experts here will then answer the questions and maybe suggest modifications to the design. For people who you don't want to learn, or maybe don't have enough to time to learn, then it would probably be better to hire someone to do the design work for you, so you don't have to learn it all. Of course, that costs money. Folks here will give all their help for free to people who are doing their best to learn and build themselves, but nobody is going to design your studio and build it for you for free! You either have to do some work yourself in learning this stuff (so you can ask the right questions), or you have to pay someone to design your room professionally. If you would prefer to pay someone to do the design and/or the building for you, then just send an e-mail or private message directly to John.

While it is good for me to learn about this important aspect, there is just an overwhelming amount of conflicting-info and "acoustics myths" out there.

Yes, there sure is a lot of that on the internet, but you won't find any myths or conflicting info here. You see, this forum is based on the science of acoustics, and is run by a guy who has been recording, mixing, designing and building studios for decades, all over the world. There are several other folks here who do the same thing, and many others (like me) who spend time studying this stuff, reading scientific papers and serious books on the subject. So here you won't find myths and conflicts. Here you will find answers based on the science of acoustics, and decades of experience, form the very best people in the industry. In fact, we seem to spend a LOT of our time dealing with those myths, and explaining, over and over again, why they are garbage.

Some people say carpet is good, other say it sucks because it makes your room sound dull.

Carpet is frequency selective absorption. In other words, it absorbs some frequencies quiet well, others just a bit, and others not at all. And it is unpredictable: every piece of carpet has different characteristics, and even worse, they can change over time. (Except for proper acoustic carpet, of course, which is very different). So ordinary carpet is always a lousy choice, based on solid science. Anyone who tells you otherwise does not have a clue what they are talking about, and has never studied anything about acoustics, period. See? There's one myth busted for you, very simply. Forget carpet as treatment: it does not work predictably, and is next to useless for a serious studio.

Some use foam or pink stuff, others say it doesn'tn do sh*t and can make your room worse

Most types of foam are useless acoustically, since they are closed-cell. Open cell foam is good acoustically, but closed-cell is no use at all. Pink fiberglass is great acoustically. And yes, both foam and fiberglass CAN make your room sound bad, if they are not installed correctly, according to solid acoustic principles. On the other hand, they can make your room sound fantastic, if they are installed correctly, in the correct locations.

An acoustic designer (which I cannot afford) came here the other day and told me that maybe my live room doesn't need bass traps, others say bass trap would be the most important.

It all depends... Most small rooms need a LOT of bass trapping, but it all depends on what you are trying to do with the room, the diffusion already in the room, and many other factors. If you already had a professional designer in there, and he said you need bass trapping after examining the room, then I'd be inclined to listen to him! It sounds like he is giving you good advice.

If I start reading maybe I am reading stuff my room doesn't even need as every room is totally different.

That is true: all rooms are different, each has its own characteristics, and purpose, and each therefore needs its own design for treatment. You cannot just throw in s a few bits of foam, or glue carpet on the walls and egg crates on the ceiling at random, and expect to get a usable room! Your specific room has to be analyzed correctly, using the know principles of acoustics (which you can learn), then the isolation and / or treatment needs to be designed for that specific room, then it needs to be built correctly and carefully. But what you will be reading in those links that people were kind enough to give you is NOT about treatment for other types of rooms: it is about treatment for YOUR room. It teaches you the basic principles of acoustics, and those apply to all rooms on this planet. It teaches you the basics of how to isolate a room, and you do need isolation in yours, so it does apply. It teaches you the basics of how to treat a room, and you do need to treat yours, so it does apply. Everything in those links is applicable to your room, and you cannot, I repeat CANNOT, design and build your room successfully if you don't understand everythign in those links. So either you can read them and learn for yourself how to design your room, for free, or you can pay someone who already knows, and he will design your room for you. The choice is yours.

I would really appreciate if with a little patience you answer my questions, even if it's just straight answers,

We'll give you straight answers to straight questions, without any problem and totally free, but please don't expect us to do all the work for you, for nothing! That's not what this place is meant for. You need to learn the basics in order to ask the right questions. We'll help you with that learning too, provided that you are willing to learn. If you can't or don't want to learn it yourself, then pay someone else to do it. I'll answer some of the points in your original post tomorrow, but right now I have to get some sleep! - Stuart -

Hi Stuart!, Thanks a lot for your answers. That's a really great start! It means a lot to me. I am going to start reading right away and learn about the particular characteristics of these two gorgeous spaces I have available. I will come back when when I know a little bit what I am talking about. Thanks and see you guys soon....

Hello guys, After a few months here I am again with a little bit less ignorance on the acoustics subject than before. I have done no changes to the rooms attached yet except I decided that the Control Room is going to be the Live Room and the Live Room is going to be the Control Room. I think it is a fantastic change from my original idea. Maybe tonight I will upload come pics of the spaces available. Before I start opening the hole for the observation glasses between the control and live rooms I'd like to ask you few simple questions: Could I start working on the control room observation windows, then calculate the overture where all the wiring are going through? then work on the doors and insulation and leave acoustic treatment for last?? I want to start with the first things first. (Which I think are the most "concrete" stuff. and then go with the acoustics part. What do you think?? Thanks a lot.. and sorry for my english

Before you cut anything, or modify anything, for your own sake - post a plan up and make sure it is the method that will be right. Everybody gets excited to start working on their project, but with the limited budget you have, the last thing you want to do is make a modification that you end up having to repair later because it was the wrong one.

Hi People, here I am after a long time and with some pics that I'll use to let you know what I doing. As I said in my last post, I am doing the opening in the wall, the windows frame and the 2 glasses installation as a starter for this project. Next I am going to start dealing with the wiring to the live room, then insulation, acoustic panels Etc. But first things first and that's going to start tomorrow! I am following some good book's guidance: Built it like the Pro's by Rod Gervais and Master Handbook of acoustics 5th edition . It is very clear that the best glass is laminated glass but in this country that is very expensive. I got a very good deal for double annealed glazing (you can see the dimensions on the "Preview ObservationalWindow C.Room" picture) where one piece of glass will be 1/4" and the other will be 3/8" in thickness. I wonder if I could get away with this glazing. I found no exact method of measuring the glass thickness in relation to the wall because this wall of mine is concrete, not drywall like most walls in USA are made of. So this is one thing I have to be sure about. The other thing I am not sure about is the windows frame, is it possible for it to be constructed non-continuous on this type of wall? I ask this because in the book I read this passage: "In wall construction, it has been proven (through lab testing) that a heavy wooden windows frame that runs continuously through the opening does not essentially weaken the TL value of the wall; however, If you absolutely want the maximum benefit, your best bet is to use a separated wood frame assembly" Other thing is how I am going to pass the wiring (snake) to the other room. but i guess that s easy. Just open a little oberture, pass the cables and then seal it. jah.. not so easy boy! So this is my status by now, in the pics you can see very clear the spaces illustrated in the Sketch I posted at the beginning of this thread, the only difference now is that I decided the Control Room to be the room with the books and the Live Room would be my sleeping room, of course my bed is already in place following recommendations from gullfo. Thanks a lot..

Ideally the glazing should match the mass of the surrounding wall but then you might have to go pretty thick on the glass to match concrete... One option on the windows would be to make window plugs to seal them when needed.

ummmm ok. thanks gullfo, but my questions are still up in the post.. Thanks

wow! nobody loves me

sorry, some of us volunteers have day jobs which are required to feed and house family. what do you mean by "non-continuous" since you need to ensure that you have a continuous mass all around (3D) to achieve proper isolation.

gullfo wrote:

sorry, some of us volunteers have day jobs which are required to feed and house family. what do you mean by "non-continuous" since you need to ensure that you have a continuous mass all around (3D) to achieve proper isolation.

ok sorry , i just get a little anxious.. A separated wood frame assembly is shown in the first attached pic, a continuous wood frame assembly is in the 2nd pic. THANKS

ok, got it. yes you want to decouple the walls and depending on the size of the window and wall support, you might use isolation sway bracing to add support to keep the walls connected but decoupled. a non-continuous wall requires separate framing so if you only have a single wall, there is no real option to use that approach.

gullfo wrote:

ok, got it. yes you want to decouple the walls and depending on the size of the window and wall support, you might use isolation sway bracing to add support to keep the walls connected but decoupled. a non-continuous wall requires separate framing so if you only have a single wall, there is no real option to use that approach.

I see, I only have a single wall as you can see in the Pic. I thought that it would be possible to install separate framing for a single wall. Also, I want the wall to be the weakest point, I mean I want to make sure that the opening with glasses and framing has more reduction than the wall itself in case I want to add some type of absorbers to the wall for further isolation between the rooms. What do you think of this? Could I add even more reduction later on doing I just told you??

your isolation will only be as good as your weakest point. short changing the mass on the wall versus a larger window might be putting the money in the wrong place. the glass needed is likely way more expensive than the drywall you'll use. and as long as you adhere to using double leaf wall construction (as much as possible) then you're better off. this may require stripping down the existing drywall or rendering if there are existing air cavities to get there.

Hey people, i think it's time for a update of how things are going. In the pictures you can see that the opening for the glass is done. It's been raining with very cloudy days lately and the frame hasn't been finished because of this, but very soon this glass opening stage of the studio is going to be done. I ordered two Hosa 50' 6x2 Sub Snakes http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000YYUAVG. I know that I have drill two little openings for these snakes but I wonder what the best method would be in this case. Should I seal the conduit (if used) completely with concrete or should I fill it with high density polyurethane foam. Should I use PVC conduit or metal? There is an electricity socket under the opening, I was thinking about using that opening for the snakes and seal it completely, is that a good idea? ..... any advice on running my snakes to the live room in this particular case is welcome.... Thanks .. a lot

I was waiting for at least some help or opinions out of this forum.. Thanks

Hello people. I know i know, this has been a very slow procedure, maybe some of you actually forgot about this project, but maybe with the attached pics and update you will refresh your memories. Today I know a lot more than the first day I started this thread so hopefully we will be able to understand each other fluently. As everyone on a budget, I have to worry about the things that are going to allow me to start recording right away, even tough the results are not going to be optimal. (or maybe yes) As you can see my control room is surrounded by books and the noise entering is not so uncomfortable, this makes it easy for me to work on mixes and some recording too. .....So I believe that before I start acoustically treating my control and live room, it is better for me to work on controlling the noise entering my live room. Once I have the noise in my live room controlled, I know I can start recording right away. Right now my primary noise problems are DOGS. I live in a very quiet neighbor but dogs from other houses are very annoying. I believe that if I seal my live room windows and do something to the doors I will be able to have that under control, and then when the money comes I start messing with the acoustic aspects. So my simple questions are these: How would I start isolating my control room (existing walls) without having to construct a room within a room? (I read Rod Gervais book and there is nothing about it) How could I start isolating so that the isolating materials I use also do something for my acoustical issues? What would be a good method here to soundproof my existing doors/windows? Thanks a lot people....

Are those windows louvers? Hard to see in the photos, but it looks like they might be. If so, that's a big problem! But regardless of whatever type of window you have no, if you want good seals for your window, and also future good isolation, then I'd replace the glass with fixed (non-opening) panes of thick laminate glass. For the rest of the room, I'd seal very, very carefully all around everything. Take out everything, and examine all of the walls, floor, ceiling, window frames, door frames, light fittings, plugs, switches, etc. for gaps, and seal it all with flexible caulk. For the door, replace it with a solid-core door, and install rubber seals around the edges (top, bottom, both sides). For the bottom, use a proper threshold seal, or drop-down seal.

How would I start isolating my control room (existing walls) without having to construct a room within a room? (I read Rod Gervais book and there is nothing about it)

Rod doesn't say much about that, because there's not much to say! If you don't do a room in a room, then isolating is going to be really, really hard to do, and really expensive. If there is no decoupled room-in-a-room, then you are limited by mass law, which is a law of physics that says: Double the total amount of mass around your room, and the isolation will increase by 6 decibels, maximum. 6 dB is not much at all. Barely noticeable. You need a difference of 10 dB before people say that the level dropped by about half, subjectively, but only 6 db is not a very big difference at all. In other words, if you were to figure out what type of drywall you have on your walls right now, and put ANOTHER TWO LAYERS on top of what is already there (including the ceiling), then you would get about 6 dB more isolation than you have right now. You would still hear the dogs, pretty loud...

How could I start isolating so that the isolating materials I use also do something for my acoustical issues?

Simple answer? You can't. In general, materials that you use to isolate a room are the exact opposite of what you need for acoustic treatment. Think of it this way: isolating the room means that you are stopping he sound from getting out. If it can't get out, then obviously that means it must stay inside! So isolating a room will make it sound bad. They type of material you use to isolate a room is heavy, rigid, solid, dense, hard. Things like thick drywall, concrete, wood, glass, etc. They stop sound, and keep it in the room. So putting even more of that type of material in the room wont help! That's the wrong type of material for acoustic treatment. The type of materials you use for treatment are the opposite: soft, fibrous, fluffy, light flexible. They absorb sound, in one way or another, and they are very good at that. But they are very lousy at isolating. So you can see that the materials you would use to isolate are no good for treating, and the ones you use for treating are no good for isolating. Of course, its more complicated than that! You can use soft fluffy materials as part of an isolation plan, and you can use rigid, dense materials as part of your treatment plan, but in both cases, they would be part of a system that is specifically designed for a purpose. - Stuart -

So are you saying that sealing windows, doors and everything in the room properly is going to do nothing (or almost nothing) to the isolation in the room?? Every time I totally close my control room windows (which are louvers), I get some degree of isolation that I can hear. So i can imagine that a sealed room with 8" thick walls would do a lot more than that, I mean it is not a room withing a room but it does something. How come I see so many budget isolation solutions in the net that don't use a room within a room ? thanks

I think you misunderstood me: Sealing is a GREAT idea, and will help a lot. But going beyond that, and trying to isolate more without building a room-in-a-room is not going to help you much more than you get by sealing. So, replace the louvers with fixed panes (thick laminated glass), seal everything you possibly can, and that will make a difference for sure, but you won't get much better than that by just adding more materials to the walls you already have. If you need more isolation after having sealed the room, then your best solution is "room in a room". One word of caution: Sealing your room will make it air tight. That's great, for isolation, but not so great for you: You need to breath! You need to consider ventilation, and from what I remember of the last few times I was in Santo Domingo, you'll also need air conditioning! But ventilation and A/C also imply breaking your seal, so you need to build silencer boxes to deal with that. - Stuart -