Need Help With Sub-Basement For Full Studio Design Costs

Jeremy - I'm trying to figure out you levels. Does this drawing correctly show the various floor levels and the position of stairs?? cheers john

Hey John, I want to thank you for taking an interest in my project. Notes Just to let you know, the Ceiling Above is totally flat. The Depths,… i.e. 20, 24 do down deeper into the ground. So if you see a staircase that starts at a 24' depth & then goes up to a 20 foot depth, you know that 24' sit lower & the tread steps up to 20' platform. Again, the Ceiling elevation, doesn’t change but there are different levels of the Floor. Red Area the 20' level from Ceiling is correct. However, the 22 riser staircase is L Shaped. you go up 8 risers turn South & go up another 14 risers. Blue Are the 24' level from Ceiling is correct. However the staircase tread need to turn 90 degrees so that when you go down the staircase, your going south. There is a 4' x 4' hatch that leads down a ladder to HVAC #1 with 10' Ceilings. The Hatch is located at the Farthest Northwester corner of the blue area. This Sub-floor is currently framed with 2x10 engineered lumber. Green Area The 24' level from Ceiling is Correct. The first set of stairs is incorrect. From the left side of the plan going Right: The First set of Steps (5-Risers) needs to be rotated 90 degrees as well. So when you go down the steps, you are going north. The other staircase is correct with Direction of tread & Level. Yellow Area the U- shaped Staircase is Correct with its 16' level ceiling height. The Direction of the Tread is also correct. There is a 12' x 4' opening in the Center of the " U " that is open to below from above, the floor doesn't continue into the U's Center. The Elevation of the Center of the U is part of the Red Area at 20' Level Ceiling. The yellow areas are the only concrete in place because it is Pre-cast. The Floor is Pre-cast because under this area, there is HVAC Room #2 with 10' level Ceilings. I hope this helps....!! Thanks for your time John

That place sounds incredible! Just out interest - where in the US are you located that allows for such deep basements (if I understood correctly - this is below the regular basement). I'd love a tour of that place once it's complete :D

so is this now correct?? If so where is your main entry point - from upstairs?? cheers John

If I had 2 Mil to blow on a studio that will never pay for itself, I would put that money in the bank. There are too many large studios going under, and can be bought for pennies on the dollar. If you have that kind of change, I would hire a real designer and a real crew (bonded/insured) and have them knock it out. Then you have some marketing cradentials to the industry, free press in the trade rags when it is done, and atleast some kind of hope of a return should you move. Why don't you go over to www.prosoundweb.com and ask George Massenberg if he would get involved in the studio biz again, if he had to start all over. He will tell you "NO!"

lowdbrent wrote:

If I had 2 Mil to blow on a studio that will never pay for itself, I would put that money in the bank. There are too many large studios going under, and can be bought for pennies on the dollar. If you have that kind of change, I would hire a real designer and a real crew (bonded/insured) and have them knock it out. Then you have some marketing cradentials to the industry, free press in the trade rags when it is done, and atleast some kind of hope of a return should you move. Why don't you go over to www.prosoundweb.com and ask George Massenberg if he would get involved in the studio biz again, if he had to start all over. He will tell you "NO!"

Sheesh - give it a rest. Why are people giving this guy a hard time?

JayDawg, Sounds like a fun project.....I think somebody brought up the "water" issue before....make SURE you don't have any leakage problems before you proceed. If this is new construction (I think you said it was) I would wait until you have some serious precipitation/melting, etc. to make sure your basement is really dry. Even if you have to wait another season or two before construction. If it turns out there is water anywhere, it could prove to be VERY costly later. My own project has been pushed back several months due to this and getting it water tight is the top priority :( .... Otherwise, the best idea I've heard so far is that you get John on site from the get go to help you out. The cost/benefit would most certainly be worth it. p.s. This is a good group....don't get sucked into any negative posts.

Hello Everyone, Nice to See every one today. I'll be Starting off by answering the Questions!! Andrew MC It Sounds incredible & it is, Its a huge project to partake. I live in Eden Prairie, Minnesota on Riverview Road. Eden Prairie is on the Edge of a Cliff overlooking the Minnesota River & Shakopee's (another City in the Valley) Valley Fair. I am a good 285' Above the Water table & the Recording Studio is to sit in the Subbasement of my home!! When Finished, A Tour Sounds Great. John Everything is looking correct... you do Great Work & you have Great Ears :) hehe lol.. But there is an Exception. For the "L" Staircase, you go up the Stairs, stand on a platform, then go south up the Stairs the rest of the Way totalling 22 steps. The Yellow Area, both staircases are 4' wide, not one at 4' feet & the other at 5'. :) Everything else is correct. The Enterence to the Studio is in the Basement above & I have Already designed it. If you'd like When I get the Chance, I'll Post What I have & Send it your way to post. Loudbrent The Studio Will pay for its Self Very Quickly, Much faster than you think. from the First Client I have in there, I Wont have to may nearly as much in Bills as a typical Studio Would. If you want me to go more into detail on this I will... just let me know... but Its one of the benifits of having a home business. Get an Accountant & he Can tell you more as well. If you don't have money for an accountant Feel free to e-mail me & I can let you in on how I Got Where I am today with the Figures. I am Aware of Studios that Go under & there Availability to buy, but I want A studio From the Ground up. I have looked into Designers most typically charge an extra 8 to 15% after the final cost of the Studio. I've looked into RBDG, WSDG & a few other Designers & there all pretty much the Same. When We Did our home & the Shell, We Saved 8% after designing it ourselves & another 15% by building it ourselves. Again 2,000,000 is not what I want to pay it was an estimate of a few numbers I collected. I can Afford that much but don't wish to pay it ( meaning: the lower the number, the better. However I must have the Best Building Supplies to build it with to construct the Studio Properly). Right now, I've been Reserching the Design Concepts For the Studio & Wrote up a Rooms list & Ideas For John. I'm Turning to this Forum for Advise & Design Development Procedures. Your all helping me Greatly & I honor you all For it.. I love your Support. After the Development stage is over I plan to Bid for an Architect to Supplement the Structure to Fit. That way, I can obtain the Permit. I have to do so to Applicate a "Workable" Drawing for the Constuction Crew. From there I will be the General Contractor but will be hiring a supervisor from the Framing Sub companies bid I Choose. John is High Recomended. "George Massenburg" Do you honestly think he is better than John??? heheh lol, I mean Come on, George doen't even have a Forum for online help like john does, Has George Ever helped you free of Charge?.... I know, I know, I'm a Suck up... But no, I don't want George, Not to mension, he is not Available? Besides, he uses more old world techniques. & thats not What I want. Granted he Does do one hell of a job. I don't wish to move. I am going to stay here. My Wife & I Plan to get Pregnant in the next year or so & I don't want my kids changing school Districts constanly... Moving isn't good for kids so I plan to stay. Lastly, Fiery Jack, Its an Extremly Lage project to tackle But I can Do it. I've been through it before & it was Fun. Its nice to meet you man, Your Pretty Cool. I'd like to thank you for your interest & Support. I have been Monitoring the Precipitation levels in the last few years (We have some bad Winters up here too) in both the Basment & Sub-basement levels... That is the Reason I haven't built sooner. I haven't had any problems. We Water & dampproofed both the interior & exterior of the Concrete Walls & have Drain tiles & a Sump pump if ever need it but I Have had no problems to date.. Your a great guy man!!! I don't intend to get sucked in to anyone negative posts. If I did, I wouldn't be a Profesional. Take Care everyone expecially you Jack & I'm Sorry to hear about your Basement. As for those Who have been helping me, Thanks, your a great Group!! Later

I am sorry. George Massenberg is one of the best engineers around, and he makes some of the best, if not THE best mic pre's, compressors, etc. Had it not been for him, the parametric EQ would not be what it is today. He believes analog is still the better, which it is, at reproducing instruments as they are. He does use Pro Tools HD, the Sony Oxford, and other digital tools. He does believe that 384kHz sampling stuff sounds great, probably as close to analog as it gets, etc. I would not call him "old styled." He does have a forum, over at www.prosoundweb.com, in the REP section. My point was this. If you had all of the talent of George, you would still be gambling 2 Million dollars. The fact is that none of us here do. So, buying a fully stocked studio/existing business would be a better deal. There are studios that have a track record, and they can be had for nothing, because the owners want out. Why? There isn't any money in the studio business. So, you had better be diversified like George if you want to make it.

Jeremy- i, for one, am fascinated by what you are doing and would welcome all the gory details - including whatever financial details you feel comfortable sharing. Rob

Hey Lowdbrent, I am Familiar with George Massenburg & him being one of the best around. I was not aware he designed studios but I was aware he does or did Consulting. I am looking into the design & Construction Process. I am not looking into the Mic pre's, Compressors & Para Eq's When I Write in this Forum. Though you have informed me of this :) As for Sony Oxford R3 & PT HD3, those, along with the Ameks & SSL's are my Favorite. I have worked with several of there consoles in college & at other studios in the US. I do Agree with George's Idea of Analog is the Way to go, But Personally I prefer only tracking in analog for the Warmth of the music (Quality) & then Transfer to Digital on Pro Tools HD for Editing (Speed). There is a saying in our industry: "Quality, Speed, and Budget... Pick 2". In my Experience, the Client has gotten all three. Hence, the Clients have stayed with me longer because there better Serviced. The old Style I was referring to is that I have seen a few of the Studio's he has consulted on & I didn't like his style of interior. Granted, I did say he is good for what he does. The Forums I am aware of are Mix & Eq online Mags. I still haven't seen anything where he has helped with studio construction & Design as well as John. I just haven't. I'm Sorry but that’s just the way I have been treated by john. I have chatted with George in forums & just haven’t given me the advice or Quality of though the john gives. As For Prosoundweb, I wasn't aware of that. Does he give design help there?? Is it like this type of forum where He will help you out? "The Question is, if you had all the talent George has, would you still gamble 2 million dollars?" Answer: your question can't be answered. I wouldn't have the talent that George has because we are not the Same Person, nor should I be compared to him. That & we have a totally different Career path then him form my Strategic Plan to my Marketing plan. They just aren't the same. As for the Gambling of the 2 million Dollars, I'm not gambling, I'm simply putting it into a product I want to get money out of later. I'm Diversifying the same way I would as a Stock. However it just isn't a higher Payout. There is tons of money in Studio Business. Maybe over there there isn’t, but over here in the US there is Money. Again, I have looked into other studios but for what I want, it isn't the way to go. I have been Rehearing what I am now doing & this is the Way it will suite me. That & I don't want to inherit other Studios Problems. Hey Tyck, It’s nice to meet ya, If you want me to introduce you the Figures & Such, Let me know specifically what you want to know. I am Comfortable sharing, but I need to know exactly what you want so I don't ramble on & Write a Book. Take Care Rob & Welcome to the Group. :)

jeremy - what you ask is no doubt a mammoth task but I've pondered it and forgotton about the differeing floor levels (very restricting) - it's a huge area so this is a 35 x 35 style control room. Anyway - it maybe gives you a starting point. ;) cheers john

Hey John, I wanted to thank you for your help. You’re a Great Guy. What you did is just Amazing, The Size, the Space & the Control Room OMG.... Thanks again for taking the time. As For the Floor levels & it all on one level, it’s cool, no sweat. Again the Floor levels haven't been set yet so being totally level is ok. I love what you have done. Wow, a 35x35 control room???, I am Speechless & Amazed. Wow I'm going to make Booth 1 the Vocal Booth & Booth 2 the Piano Booth. I have a few Questions For you 1) The Eq Racks (Producers Desk) you placed in the Control Room, How many Racks are there of Equipment? 2) Where Exactly Would I layout the Soffits in the Studio, Control Room & Booths as well as the Acoustic panels on both walls & Ceilings? 3) Where would the best places be to put the Mics, Lines & Data Patches from the Studio to the Control & How many? (Both the Boxes & the Troughs) 4)What Would the Ceiling Heights & Slopes be in the studio, Control & Booths? 5) Would there be any reason not to put a window from the stairs platform overlooking Booth 2 (Piano Booth) or would that be a Studio improper? I noticed it once in a studio in Texas & have liked the Idea? 6) Where Could I get that large of Doors & Windows for the Studio 7) Currently, I have 2 Utility rooms in the Sub-basement. Do I Necessarily need 2 or can I instead use one of them for Instrument storage? 20' x 14' should be large enough for the Mechanical Room Correct? It’s Just amazing John! I love it a lot. Can anyone tell me if they see anything that don't make since with it or Feel Would be better??? Please let me Know ASAP. Thanks john I love it! It’s Truly Amazing.

Jeremy - it is only a first draft with a bit of cut and paste. It's far too big a project to answer all your questions on a site like this. I'd be here all day :) cheers john

In that Case !! 8) Where do you get Doors & Windows that large ? & What Should the STC Rating be on them ? Thanks Jeremy !! :D

Jeremy - all the doors I've drawn are 7 ft sliders. You can get proper acoustic versions that will give around 36 STC each. The glass windows would require special construction but it should be possible to achieve 60+STC if correct thickness of glass is used and the leaf construction from control room to studio is constructed correctly. cheers John

Hey Aaron, I got your e-mail the other night, so I'll tell you a little about the progress I have made on the project. I drew a Rough Draft of the studio the way I would like it & sent it to an architect up here in Minnesota. She cost $85 an hour, but she's doing really well on the project. She should be done with the working drawings for the Studio next week. I then plan to show it to a couple people that are going to give me input on it & to trouble shoot any areas as possible as a type of Corrective Critisism. Also Right now, I have been researching Sub Contractors & obtaining Building Permits. Once the Working Drawings are finished I'm going to get bids. Sorry I Haven't Written much on here lately, I have been doing a lot of traveling to different cities in Minnesota looking at the New Studios, Post Production Facilities & lots of Trade Shows to get more input. Being your own Contractor is a second fulltime job in its self. This Week-end I'm flying to Canada to Check out a company I want to do the timber framing with. Then I'm going to Missouri with a camera to see more facilities. Keep in Touch!!

I just happened upon this thread. Exciting project! 8) I just love John's glass-front control room. I first got a glimpse of that in an offline discussion we were having and thought it was great! In that discussion I was toying with a method of suspending narrow monitors from the ceiling in between the two glass panes - like I've illustrated below. This would leave as much open visual area as possible, as well as just looking pretty dammed cool. And of course, those custom Barefoot monitors are just begging to be shown off (shameless plug). ;) Thomas

barefoot wrote:

I just happened upon this thread. Exciting project! 8)

Yeah I reckon!! So JayDawg, how's it all goin bro?? Where u up to with it? BTW cool idea Thomas :)

Hey man, Sorry I haven't been on much. I've been very busy. Things are going pretty Good. Hours for designing stage are starting growing (average 55 hrs a week). It’s amazing how much time it takes. To date were 7 weeks into the project & am very proud of the progress we’ve made. Here is an outline to date where we are by the Week to date! 7 Weeks Ago Throughout the Week I Rough Drew What I wanted my Studio to be. I Interviewed & Hired a Construction Attorney Who Came up with all the Contracts & Paperwork for Subs & told me to get insurance I went & Got Insurance Bids to protect my Big Ass from everyone involved in the construction Process, the Studio, My House & From Me incase I Get hurt too. I Interviewed & Hired a General Contractor Consultant to advise me through the Building Process. We went out & Seen Homes her was working on & Answered all my Questions. I Interviewed & Hired a Construction Accountant to help with Bookkeeping & Payroll. I also got info on tax refunds specifically for my project. I Interviewed & Hired a Project Architect Who Went out & measured the Walls with her team to get the absolute dimensions. (Some how, there was 4'-6 1/2" added to 6 Walls in the Building Process of my houses Existing plans. Don't ask me how, I have no Clue). I went to city Hall & discussed my Project & Meet with my Building Inspector. He's a pretty nice guy if you don't ask him too many Questions. 6 Weeks ago I finished my Rooms & Ideas List That I Posted on here & Added 8 more Pages of information to my Architect. I discussed my Project onsite with my Project Architect, GC Consultant & the Inspector. Who I might add was very Grouchy. I think he hates ladders. After the meeting My GCC & I Discussed getting a Different Inspector, Went to City hall & the City Gave us a new Inspector. He is a much Nicer Guy & Seems to loving giving info & is very Cooperative & Honest. I like him as long as he still bitches When Something is wrong. The Project Architect, GC Consultant & the New Inspector & I re-meet for the meeting & had even better Success. The meeting lasted 2 hours longer than the other one. The architect made a to-do list of the Specifics he would need to Show to be presented to the City Consul. I Feel We got More Accomplished. We also had the Building Inspector Sign a waver in front of a notary saying if the Architect & I Meet the Conditions of City Consul He Would Sign All Necessary Permits pending City Hall allows us to move forward. I and the Architect then filled out all paperwork related to the City Consul Presentation. The Rest of the Week the Architect Finished drawing up the Existing Floor plans which also included the Existing Elevations & Excavation Plan. 5 Weeks Ago Before I Left for our little trip, the Surveyors came to the House to Survey & Stake the property Known as a "Preliminary Zoning of Preplanned project". The Reason for this is because I need a Small Size Parking lot for the Studio & I need the Exact Coordinates on my Property & House. The Architect & I toured multiple Million Dollar Facilities in the states near mine for the Whole Week. It was Harsh 22 studios, 6 days on the Road & 8 notebooks later we came up with one hell of a Draft. On Friday, the Architects crew had the Demolition plan to the Back of the home done as well as the new plot/ Landscape plan & Rear Elevation Plan & Elevator Plan. The Reason there is to be Excavation & demolition involved is because we need a way for all the Materials & Bobcat to get into the Sub basement. The Reason for the Exterior Elevation Plan is because we need to add an elevator to the side of the home directly into the Studio So the Musicians Can get there Equipment to the Studio Efficiently. (A 45,000 dollar Cost That I didn't Consider) 4 Weeks Ago Over the Weekend the Architect drew up 3 Preliminary Drawing for me I got lists of Pictures off the internet of Studios & Idea's I liked & the Architect & I incorporated them into the Design & handed these to her on Tuesday. On Tuesday & Choose 2 of the Preliminary’s and asked to incorporate them for me with all my Suggestions to date. I then Approved the Preliminary & She Started the Working Drawings while her Crew Started the Footings & Foundation Specifications, Windows & Doors Schedules, Soffits & Fascia Specifications. The Architect, Myself, Inspector & CG Consultant went over all plans to date & Made Changes in Which the Architect noted. On Saturday & did all the Bookkeeping & Sent the numbers to my Accountant Who paid everyone on the following Monday. They then in turn sent Waivers to my Attourney Who gave me the ok to proceed with my Project. 3 Weeks Ago The Architect, Myself, Inspector & CG Consultant went over all plans to date & Made Changes in Which the Architect noted. She then Started the Presentation Drawings to be shown at Consul. She then prepped a Rough Budget Worksheet Showing the Costs of the Studio & a Rough Construction Schedule. Her Crew Continued on With the Load Specifications, Foundation & Footings Plan, Excavation, Pre-cast & Structural Plans, & Block work Elevations. (However we may pour the interior Walls). 2 Weeks Ago Presentation Drawings for City Consul & All changes to Detail Floor plan have been finished by Architect. I then Showed a Few Friends, Coworkers & Companies & Few Studios. My Project for Feedback & Made a list of what was said with a video Cam & Sent it to the Architect & We made the changes. We then Showed the Inspector & he signed off on the plans to be presented at City Consul. I then signed off on what has been drawn to be released to Working Drawing & Mechanical Division of the Architectural Firm. Any Changes after this Point Will Cost a lot of money are in the Form of Change Order. Last Week My Construction Attorney, Accountant, Architect, GC Consultant, Building Inspector & Myself gave Presentation to City Consul. Project Was Approved & Architect was given a list of Addendums to Complete to be shown at the next City Consul Meeting. Addendums Included Showing Mechanical Systems, Larger Elevator, More Windows in the Sub Basement, Fire Suppression System, And Landscape With Fence for Privacy of Recording Artists & about 20 other thing more into Detail. In addition, I must become a Business in the City. This means I must become a member of the Chamber of Commerence. Other than that they welcomed me to there Business Community. Through out the rest of the Week the Architectural Team Worked on the Space & Fluid numbers to Heat & Cool the Studio, Complied with the Addendums of the City Consul. This Week Monday & Tuesday I have scouted for many Sub Contractors looking at there Work at Home Shows in the Area & for Products there in for Finish Materials. (Luxury home Tour). Next Month I will be going to the Parade of homes Tour. I currently have a Small List of Who I Would like to have involved as Sub Contractors from over the Years. On Tuesday I also had 4 Interior Designs to interview & I Hired 2 to Work together & the Architect Begins Referencing different product companies for Construction. Wednesday The Architect & I Began looking at Different Brands of HVAC/ Plumbing & Electrical Materials for the Studio She Started Writing out the Building Materials List also Known as General Specifications. We will be visiting a new & Different location every day for 4 hours over the next week & a Half. After Which, She Will provide me with a Budget Estimate & A formal Materials List. Thursday I will be searching for a Studio Consultant for my Project & will be hiring him. Hehehe unless he or She Chooses to Work For Free :). Other than that, The Interior Designers & I are going to be learning about the Effects of Timber Framing in the Studio. On Friday I meet With 3 studios in Minnesota to Discuss Different Fixtures in interior Design.

Jeremy, You've been BUSY :!: Sounds like you're in for one heck of a project. Now I know why I haven't tried to build a commercial facility (not to mention the $$ factor). Wew. That wore me out just reading what you've been up to. Did you find your studio consultant yet? Gotta run. Have a good weekend. Aaron

Been crankin away I see. ;) Chat at yah later buddy.

Good Morning everyone! Hey Aaron, long time no Chat!! Whats up man, How have you been? I've been Pretty good. I hope you have been too. The Project is running on. It feels like I just started the other day. It all moves by so Fast. Its like a blur. I'm getting through alot of problems as we go. Its just amazing. To Answer your questions, No I haven't gotten a Studio consultant yet but i did get me a good interior designer & I have been asking a few People Half a million Questions with other Studios, Chat Rooms & yahoo Messager & have been spending hours with them. If anyone else would like to help, let me know. "Buzzing away....."

If anyone else would like to help, let me know.

Heh, sometimes it sux being a newbie. With a project like that, I'd love to be involved, but I don't really know anything yet (trying to learn so I can build my own space). I have worked in the construction field and for my father's HVAC business, so I can kinda visualize what you've got (pre-construction-wise, anyway). I noticed you have GeoThermal, which can be a PITA to add onto sometimes. That must be some beautiful house you have there! Oh well, if I was closer, I could at least volunteer to run the shop-vac or something! :D I hope you post some pics once construction gets underway (how soon is that expected?).

I just came across this thread.... I must say, at first I was taken aback by the budget.....8^)....it is just way ahead of the kind of thing, you usually get to read about on this and all the other recording studio design forums...I think thats where the negativity came from, unjustified...also maybe some people thought you were yanking their chains.....thats one of the probs of the written word on the net, things sometimes come across badly....ah well,,,,good to see we are passed that. I will be following this thread with interest, so please keep up posting the details when you have a chance. The scale that you are working on, many of us would give our "left nut" (good aussie slang there....8^)...) just to have a look around, let alone have as our own......8^)..... One piece of advice I can give you.....GET IT DONE B4 THE BABY comes along....8^) Mate, after you have kids, you are gonna be soooooooooooo tired......... hehe... take care Wiz