Small garden studio & control room

xSpace wrote:

"Have been noticing on a lot of other builds that mod's are suggesting not to isolate the inner stud walls from the floor slab" Well, you have two mods here, and neither of us suggest this. Matter of fact, the plate HAS to be fastened to the floor to resist the walls ballooning from all the weight and bouncing around the room ...so, your assessment that what "mod's" here are suggesting is incorrect since we have 75 percent of the active ones right here, right now.

Many thanks for the clarification, but the way I read my original post I am asking if its ok to fix the plate down because I had wrongly thought that it had to be 'floating' or 'isolated' from the floor slab, I had not suggested that mod's were saying in other posts that the walls should be 'isolated', which seems to be what you are suggesting in your post, sorry if I'v misunderstood your above post, and again many thanks for your help it will be so much easier knowing i can fix the walls down :D One other question, would I be better off filling all of the airspace between the inner stud and outer concrete block with acoustic insulation or just the 70mm stud then stapling netting to hold in place to leave a gap between the insulation and the outer concrete block work :?:

Even if it is floated or decoupled in some manner, the fact is it will (the wall plate) have to be secured to the floor. That is not a step that can be removed in the hunt. I have read many posts from many people here mostly and there is this lunacy that the wall plate has to be isolated. What I have not seen is any thing that supports this thinking other than the basic notion that "it has not been shot down yet, and everyone else is buying into the idea". Suggestions are based on a piece of neoprene or other rubber product, but I have yet to see the weight of an interior rooms walls/ceiling with all the sheetrock, etc, place a number on it and see where it lands. It is not something that can be easily computed and in my opinion is not something that should have gotten this far into the language. But there are far to many people that listen to far to many things that other people listen to since, by and large, no one owns a hammer and respects the "idea" since it is lofty in nature, and acoustics is usually the entry point to many for construction, but they think of it as something elite, which it is, but it isn't. You still build things that work as a unit. Not much data elsewhere to support this isolated wall, although I appreciate that it could help, I have yet to see any proof that suggests the effort and money spent actually makes it so.

It is not something that can be easily computed and in my opinion is not something that should have gotten this far into the language.

Absolutely! What the man said! - Stuart -

xSpace wrote:

Even if it is floated or decoupled in some manner, the fact is it will (the wall plate) have to be secured to the floor. That is not a step that can be removed in the hunt. I have read many posts from many people here mostly and there is this lunacy that the wall plate has to be isolated. What I have not seen is any thing that supports this thinking other than the basic notion that "it has not been shot down yet, and everyone else is buying into the idea". Suggestions are based on a piece of neoprene or other rubber product, but I have yet to see the weight of an interior rooms walls/ceiling with all the sheetrock, etc, place a number on it and see where it lands. It is not something that can be easily computed and in my opinion is not something that should have gotten this far into the language. But there are far to many people that listen to far to many things that other people listen to since, by and large, no one owns a hammer and respects the "idea" since it is lofty in nature, and acoustics is usually the entry point to many for construction, but they think of it as something elite, which it is, but it isn't. You still build things that work as a unit. Not much data elsewhere to support this isolated wall, although I appreciate that it could help, I have yet to see any proof that suggests the effort and money spent actually makes it so.

Thanks for that Brien any thoughts on my insulation in the stud and air space?

The insulation is there for a reason, not for isolation, but to dampen the cavity and the panels. So you time is better spent making certain that the panels are damped. If they are then your job is kinda done. What you do not want to do is over-fill the cavity in such a way that the insulation becomes or creates a bridge that sound can move on basically a flanking path inside your wall assembly.

Thanks again Brien, so filling the air gap is better then leaving 50mm with nothing in and the studs filled as long as its not over filled tightly? Managed to finish the dig out :D Fingers crossed I can get prepped & concrete at the weekend, I would also like to say thanks to Glenn who suggested going deeper if possible to get as much ceiling height as possible, at first I thought no way but now I'v done the biggest part of the work below ground i'm sure it will be of great benefit.

When you pour your new slab, are you going to isolate it from the existing walls, or not? Just a quick curve ball for ya... :) - Stuart -

I was going to use a compressible foam that we use between walls and concrete etc, I have some 100mm and 150mm rolls of this, I am also going to put some 50mm styrofoam insulation under the slab purely for insulation , not for trying to create a floating slab, I was hoping that the compressible foam would be ok as it is what I use at work.

Some pictures from the weekend isolation foam on top and side of foundations 1200gauge dpm with concrete backed styrofoam for damp proofing and some insulation Ready for concrete 125mm thick concrete with Ronafix and reinforcing fibres added in the mix Next I'm hopefully going to render during the week all the concrete block walls on there air space/cavity side with 4/1 render with fibres and water proofer in the mix this will seal the blocks in case of any perforations etc but also add more mass and strength.

Fibre reinforced render done on the air side of walls excuse the iphone photographs, Expecting delivery of my caulk and backer rod from these guys tomorrow, ready to start stud work at the weekend can anyone confirm I have to put 3 lines of AC50 under the plates before fixing down? http://www.sealantsandtoolsdirect.co.uk ... c50900box9

received my order today very good service pity I have to work Saturday & Sunday so not sure how much Stud work I will be able to get up Can anyone answer my question in the previous post please :D

can anyone confirm I have to put 3 lines of AC50 under the plates before fixing down?

For maximum "safety factor", yes. 3 beads of caulk: one down the middle, and one close to each edge. Then another bead under each layer of drywall. In theory, just one seal is enough, but in practice, you never know if there might be a spot you missed, or that didn't stick very well, or where an air bubble popped, or where.... - Stuart -

Thanks for that Stuart, have gone with 3 beads under the sole plates all down and fixed am building the studs in situ. Can anyone suggest where I can get 'putty packs' for the electrical boxes in the UK as I will not be using surface trunking my rooms are small enough already, :? I have an electrician but he is not familiar with 'putty packs', kinda wondered wether they are called something different in the UK?, mind you he is only 20 he's the drummer in my sons band :D so hopefully will cut the costs down a little,

Can anyone suggest where I can get 'putty packs' for the electrical boxes in the UK

Also called "putty pads". http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/page/modu ... eId=-63132 http://www.soundisolationstore.com/putt ... tlets.html http://www.soundaway.com/FireStop_Putty ... /21009.htm Maybe that helps... Print them and take them to the biggest electrical supply store around, and ask what they have that might fit the bill... - Stuart -

Many thanks for that Stuart, have been busy but no photos as my phone is in for repair, Framing finished and electric's first fix done at the weekend, have been fixing some battens to the inside of the outside wall in the shower room and entrance hall to accommodate some 30mm thick Celcon insulation, plumber is coming round this coming Saturday to first fix so will be insulating and boarding from then on.

A couple of photos of the work on going,

Ceiling plyboards are done and caulked have started on the walls also, Managed to get the floor in the entrance and shower room ready for screed. Sorry about the quality of some of the pictures have been using my iphone for them and sometimes the quality is not great.

Some progress on what will eventually be the control room, 18mm tongue & groove plywood caulked an sealed and then 15mm plasterboard caulk & seal, when all done plan to then plaster finish. Can any one suggest the thickness of the 2 panes of glass for my viewing window?

Can any one suggest the thickness of the 2 panes of glass for my viewing window?

The idea is to keep the same surface density as the rest of your wall. So if you can describe the exact makeup of each leaf (what layers it is made of, and how thick each layer is), then I'll figure it out for you. - Stuart -

Ok thanks for replying for me, the control room side is a 70mm x 45mm stud, with a 1st layer of 18mm tongue an groove plywood and a 2nd layer of 15mm plasterboard which will have a skim of plaster on it, the air space is filled with insulation. The live room wall is 150mm concrete blocks filled with concrete and a sand/cement render on both faces, though round the window it has been built with limestone and sandstone as a feature which you can see in my previous build pictures. Many thanks again

Any idea on them 2 panes of glass Stuart, just want to find out a price to see if I can afford to put it in before xmas and the rest of the build?

Ooops! I guess I missed your response!!! :oops:

with a 1st layer of 18mm tongue an groove plywood and a 2nd layer of 15mm plasterboard which will have a skim of plaster on it,

At a very rough estimate, the surface density of your wall is going to be around 20 to 30 kg/m2, as the materials you are using are roughly in the density range of 700 to 900 kg/m3. Glass is about triple that, so you are going to need glass that is roughly 8-12mm thick, give or take, to match the wall. On the other side, 150mm of concrete is one hell of a lot of mass! :shock: Not necessary to try to match that (you'd need ridiculously thick glass!) I reckon I'd go with 12mm glass on the concrete wall side, and 9mm on the other side (laminate glass, preferably). Or to save money, you could do 9mm on both sides and increase the air gap a bit. - Stuart -

That's great Stuart, :D what sort of air gap would you suggest as I have around 280mm minimum between each face on the walls, I will be using Rods book for guidance on the window build with 2 separate frames and covering the air gap with a black material, when the live room is built it will be my sons band mainly at first (drums, lead guitar, bass guitar) and I would say that they are pretty loud, my son plays a PRS through a Hughes & Kettner amp with a 4x12 cab, the bassist plays through separate amp an cab also and they seem to be louder now than the old band which had another guitarist as well :roll: But the plan is that my son and stepson will end up recording other people, bands etc when everything is up an running properly, probably in a years time at the rate i'm building this. :lol: Carl

what sort of air gap would you suggest as I have around 280mm minimum between each face on the walls,

A gap of 280 mm between the two panes of glass (9mm and 12mm) is fine. In theory, that should get you over 50 dB of isolation, and probably closer to 60. In other words, if the kids are going wild at 110 dB in the room, that will be down to around 50 db or so outside the room (assuming that the rest of the build is up to the same level, and that you have no flanking issues).

(drums, lead guitar, bass guitar)

:shock: :!: Yup, 110 db is highly probable, So is 115... Maybe more! :) - Stuart -

Thanks for the reply again Stuart, so I think I will go as wide as I can with the air space :D