SMALL Basement Project Studio Build Project

At the risk of someone grabbing these out from under me . . . :roll: http://cgi.ebay.com/Fantech-FR-100-Inli ... 4ceed7c8d3 Any thoughts on buying USED fans? I could get two (there are eight available) at the price of one new one. And just so I cover the math: Each room is approx 8x10x7 = 560 cubic ft. 560 x 6 (ach) = 3360 cubic feet an hour needs to be moved 3360 / 60 (minutes) = 56 cfm required. The FR100 is rated at 122 cfm, so that should be plently with twists and turns of baffles, etc. AND might actually get me higher than the 6 ACH I'm spec'ing. - So, thoughts on used?

i'd buy new. fans used could have bearing issues (noise, binding, etc) which is why they're being sold. then again, if your stay is short, then used might be the answer but you should assume an actually used fan will have a shorter lifespan and no warranty compared to new.

Appreciate the comments Glenn and you probably have a good point. I like the idea of repurposing (the doors from REStore for example) - but in the end the stuff needs to work in order for it to be a good deal. Do you think they need to be the centrifugal type fans? Like can I get something like this, and simply not install the grill? http://airking.ventingdirect.com/air-ki ... on/p441477 I know I'm probably coming off as cheap, naive', whatever, but whether it was poor planning or not, I wasn't expecting to pay $200+ in fans . . .

yes they can work but keep them in a location where you can periodically replace the motor as these types tend to have bushings of soft metal which will wear on nearly continuous duty versus roller/ball bearings on a more expensive unit designed for continuous running.

Glenn, Thanks for the confirmation and advice. I understand what you are saying. I'm thinking, that: 1) With my second child on the way 2) Since the studio/music is mostly just a hobby these days 3) Since my day job is not recording, and usage of my space won't be very "constant" I could probably get away with the lesser of the fans. I understand that there are always different levels, and we would all love to have the top notch stuff, but when $$$, practicallity, and realistic use starts coming into play, compromises are made. I have a little longer to think on it as I'm not quite there yet in construction, but will probably opt for the bath fan type units. More construction this weekend though!!!

I know it is only believed with pictures - but, I was able to get the framing for the LR complete over the weekend! Also decided to go ahead and seat my framed up windows, as it seemed that reduced access after the double wall was in place would have made it more difficult to do later. I think that is a little unconventional compared to a lot of the builds I have seen on here, and hopefully I'm not shooting myself in the foot for something later that I haven't thought of . . . At any rate, a couple quick questions on corner absorbers. I plan on doing a set of two super chunks in the rear of each room. I'm going to try out the 24'' design first and see where that gets me. That's the one where you get 8 triangles from each sheet of material. My questions are these: 1) I'm going to be putting laminate flooring in these rooms. Should I do the floor first and absorbers on top, or should I do the absorbers first and work the floor around it? If absorbers first, since I'm going directly onto basement concrete, should I still be the vapor barrier underlayment down under the bottom piece of insulation of the absorber to avoid any sort of moisture wicking? 2) I'm having a little trouble finding a good spot to put the vents in the wall. Because the width of each room is pretty short - 8' - because the doors are pretty wide - ~3' - and because I plan on doing the corner absorbers - 2' wide - I don't have a lot of open spaces on the wall that have a big clearance between studs that aren't going to be abstructed by the absorbers. So, my quesiton is this, can I put the vents IN the absorbers? By that I mean running the ducting through them and having the grill on the front of them. These ducting lines would then go into baffles on the exterior double wall. 3) Would a supper chunk in each vertical corner be better than just the two in the rear - or would that simply set up a parrallel spaces and not work at all? 4) All this time I've been planning on super chunks, but would a single panel that spans the corner of the room be a better/equal solution for absorbtion? I realize it would be a lot less material, so my guess is no - but my guesses seem to have a habit of being wrong . . . Thanks as always - its starting to come together, but there is a while to go. Baby boy is due early April, the clock is ticking . . .

go with the super chunks. you could route the vent though the super chunk if needed. i'd put in the floor then the super chunks - it's usually easier that way. you could put super chunks on the wall-ceiling corner as well as the vertical corners - you might wait to make some room measurements before doing so.

Thanks as always Glenn! I'll proceed with: 1) Floor first, then treatments 2) Super chunks instead of spanning panels (any specifics for going this route - documentation, personal experience, etc. ?) 3) Probably vent through the super chunk, at least in the CR, might have a little lattitude in the LR. 4) Wait on final positioning of absorbers until all the walls are drywalled (though that makes the vent issue a bit trickier . . .) Is it safe to say that I can do the super chunks in the rear corners and not hurt my room, will they be effective no matter what? My plan was to do them first and then apply other panels, etc. around the room where needed after measuring. Thanks again!

the only risk is perhaps too much absorption besides the desired LF but this can be altered via panels, polys, slats, etc to bring back some life.

So, I finished the outer wall framing of the front double wall last night. After doing that, and trying to visualize my air baffles I quickly realized just how much they would be sticking out into the existing basement room. Since I'm going to be using 6'' duct, that means I would need a baffle at least 12'' wide. Because of the existing door orientation that goes into the utility room, the only available space for the vent between the studs - because of the small wall length, there is only one 16'' OC space in the left side of the room, and the required size for a baffle, I'm not sure I can make it work. My questions for now are: 1) Can a system of 90 degree turns in flex duct produce close to the same results as a baffle? (see picture) 2) If I have flex duct going back and forth between studs, is it okay for the flex duct to touch both my interior and exterior wall framing - or does that create a flanking path? (see picture) Thanks

any hard contact will couple the walls. even very small amounts, make sure the duct in only in contact with one wall or the other except when you need to span to the opposing opening and keep that connection very flexible. also, you still need some solid dividing panels in the baffle to actually force the sound to flow the way you want otherwise sound can simply transfer from one opening to the other because the flex duct is not very good at isolation by itself.

Thanks for the quick response Glenn. I will have to do some more thinking then to try and come up with a solution. I might have some more latitude on vent placement if I just turn the vent on the recording rooms vertical, rather than horizontal. No issue there other than aesthetics right? It is a standard 4''x10'', 6'' connection vent.

vertical or horizontal shouldn't be a problem.

mshetler.design wrote:

2) Super chunks instead of spanning panels (any specifics for going this route - documentation, personal experience, etc. ?)

Scott Foster helps with that: http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=534 http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=535 http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=536 Eric Desart presented some data on this subject, that was very helpful in me making a decision some years ago on why to do this, which I did :) They work and I like the way they look.

Brien, Thanks for stopping by my thread! Thanks also for the links and input. I was familiar with the second link, as that is where I was taking my 8 triangle cut pattern from. Glad to see the others too - looked them all over, will spend a little more time with them again I'm sure. I do believe I have made my mind up on going with the super chunks for sure. Thanks,

Ah yes it has been quite some time . . . I would like to say that I have made a ton of progress, but while I have made some progress, it wouldn't count as a TON I think. At any rate I'm back and looking for help on a couple questions regarding the HVAC silencers I'm planning on building tomorrow. I'm having some trouble finding a quick source for duct liner so I'm wondering about alternatives. I have some thermafibre that I'll be using for absorbers later. I have seen several posts about using this in the liner if they are sealed with fabric or plastic. That might be an option. Any opinions? I also wanted to confirm that lining is essential to the effectiveness of the silencers. I can't get away with no liner right? Placement is my next question, in relation to multiple leafs. I'm planning on having these silencer boxes in the corners of the room. I'm going to have to boxes in each room. One for the active vent (inline fan drawing air out) and one for the dead vent (no fan, allows "clean" air to return to the room). The box that goes with the fan will sit on top of the dead vent box. Basically, the two stacked on top of each other will be the height of the room - each being approx 3.5' high. To get to the question, should I drywall the corner first then boxes, or should I put the boxes against the framing and drywall on top of the boxes into the corner? My thoughts were that the boxes would be creating some triple leaves, but I'm not sure how sound that train of thought is. Feedback as always is much appreciated - one of these days I'll post some more pics to prove I have done some work! THANKS,

So, no response on my question about the silencers below? Oh well . . . I wound up putting the drywall up first anway. I've completed hanging two layers of 5/8 in the live room, and one whole layer in the control room, in addition to the 2nd layer on the ceiling and two of the walls. Slow and steady progress, hard to believe its been close to 7 months! Back to silencer questions: In the live room, I'm going to have the two silencers in a corner, built into a superchunk. My question is this, for the vents to be "connected" to the room, they will be in the front of the superchunk - as in the vent grill will be on the face of the superchunk. This places them approx. 1' away from the wall in which they need to be connected for air flow into the next room over (my "air exchange room" - the non-studio portion of the basement). So, the question is this, for that short run from silencer to wall, what do I do? My thought was use flexduct, but I was concerned that this run of flexduct would then negate the silencers and the flexduct would be exposed to sound (even though it will be inside the superchunk) and transmit that to/from the next room over. Any thoughts/advice would be greatly appreciated. I very thankful for what I received so far, it has taken me a great way in this project! -mshetler

Maybe you can show us models in SketchUp of what you have in mind, so we can see exactly what you are planning. It's hard to get the full picture just from a a few words on the screen. - Stuart -

Stuart, Thanks for the reply - you're right a picture is worth more than all the words. I don't have sketchup available at the moment, but did draw something up quickly. Here's what I'm talking about - any thoughts? The way I see it I would have two options: 1) Butt the silencer against the wall and make the flexduct span the part that meets the front of the superchunk 2) Butt the silencer up against the front of the superchunk and span the distance between the silencer and the wall with the flexduct (as shown). Thanks,

To be honest, I wouldn't put the silencer there at all! You'll be pretty much destroying the bass-trapping ability of your superchunk like that. You need the full width and depth of the triangle to maximize the bass trapping, so if you embed your silencer in it, either front or back, you severely diminish the effectiveness of the trap, making it pretty useless. One thing you could consider is putting the silencer on the other side of the wall: in other words, outside of the room, not inside it. Another possibility (if the wall is thick enough) is to consider putting it inside the wall cavity. Or maybe above the ceiling. There might also be other places where you could put it inside the room, if you have no choice, but places that won't interfere with the acoustic treatment. If you could do a complete, accurate scale diagram of your final room design in SketchUp, and/or post photos of what you have in there, then we might be able to help you figure out the best way of doing this. Another major point (I think Glenn already mentioned it) is to make sure that your ducting is isolated / decouple where it passes through the MSM wall. In other words, the ducting must not create any flanking paths that mechanically join the two leaves: that would compromise the isolation. - Stuart -

Stuart, Thanks again for the reply - I really do appreciate it. Looking back on it now, maybe I misunderstood Glenn when he said I could vent through the superchunk. He probably just meant the ducting and not the silencer . . . I do understand what you mean about the silencer interfering with the superchunk - I was kind of wondering about that myself really. I was wondering though, I am using my rockwool, covered in plastic, to line the silencers in lieu of duct liner (I believe this is okay, right?). So, if the silencers would go in the superchunk, and since they are lined with the same material I would be making my superchunks with, would it completely destroy the purpose of the superchunk? I understand that the air spaces in the silencer would obviously not be as effective as if there were rockwool there instead. As for alternative placement: I originally thought about outside the room, but that area is going to be "residential", as in rec. room for the kids. Not sure how the wife would like a couple of 1'x1'x3.5' boxes stacked up in there. Suppose I could ask her . . . I also thought about the wall cavity, but it isn't big enough. Same with the ceiling, not enough space between the existing joints. I think outside the room is the best choice for the studio, but as for if I can get it "approved", we'll see. As for decoupling the vent - do you have some specific suggestions on material? Neoprene, or the like? Something else? Thanks so much for your time!

He probably just meant the ducting and not the silencer . . .

I'm sure he did! A duct in the corner is not going to affect the bass trapping much, but replacing most of the superchunk with a plywood box is certainly going to be an issue!

I am using my rockwool, covered in plastic, to line the silencers in lieu of duct liner (I believe this is okay, right?).

Should work OK, if you can't get proper duct liner.

Not sure how the wife would like a couple of 1'x1'x3.5' boxes stacked up in there.

Maybe you could make them thinner and longer? For example, only 6" deep but 7' tall? That way you, might be able to fit them into the decor a bit better: perhaps make them look like floor-to-ceiling wall cabinets or something (stick fake knobs or handles on the front, so they look like cupboards! :) ). The combination of dimensions isn't so important: as long as you keep enough cross sectional area for slow air flow, and multiple turns, then you can adapt the dimensions to fit your needs.

As for decoupling the vent - do you have some specific suggestions on material? Neoprene, or the like? Something else?

I think Glenn already suggested sealing around the ducts (where they pass through the wall) with flexible caulk, to make sure the ducts don't touch the drywall. You might also want to cut a 1" gap in the ductwork itself, and put some kind of flexible duct seal around that, as an extra measure. Glenn can give you better advise on HVAC ductwork than I can: it's not really my area of expertise. But the above is what I think he recommends, frequently. The basic idea is just to keep the ductwork from bridging the leaves, and from being a flanking path. - Stuart -

Stuart, Not sure I understand when you say "Get the proper ductliner" - what I meant was, I'm using rockwool, wrapped in plastic AS my duct liner. I thought I saw somewhere that this was okay - I was having problems sourcing duct liner. Understand on your suggestions on box dimensions, unfortunately they are already built . . . I think I may have some ideas on placement though. As for decoupling, I was planning on using the flexible caulk (grabber acoustic caulk). Without looking back through the thread, I'm sure I got that idea from Glenn ;) Thanks again.

I haven't posted any pics in a while and since I've revived my thread a bit, here goes (the silencers that have been discussed as of late are in there, without the rockwool lining in them yet).

And some insulation shots - in my case, "I'll have some of the yellow . . ."