SMALL Basement Project Studio Build Project

New project: Location: Dayton, OH, USA Budget: $2000 Purpose: Personal/Demo recording - possibly with full band (drums, guitar, bass, etc.) Music style: Rock, Indie Area dimensions: 18'1'' x 11'6'' Construction: DIY, with assistance We are expecting our 2nd child, and as was the plan, the room that currently houses my computer and mics is going to be the new nursery and half of the basement will become my "domain". I started browsing this (and other) sites when the project was getting to be more serious. As you can see from the budget, and with the fact that there will be an additional member of the family now, money is a major consideration. With that in mind though, I have been doing some budgeting and I think I can make something work. Also, as you can see from the drawings, space is limited too. But that is what design is all about right, finding a solution within the given parameters? I have many questions about best (cheap) practices, such as: - Can I do two layers of drywall without green glue ("1/2 schedule" screws?) and get enough of an increase in mass and STC to make it worth while? - Best practices for filling hollow doors (home depot type). - General layout (see attached pics). After reviewing the rules for posting I realized I missed the fact that the floor is concrete. I also subsequently forgot that I'm looking into a laminate floor for the live room (the 9' x 11' space on the right) and carpeting for the control/iso booth. I tried sketchup but couldn't learn the interface quickly so I went back to blender which I have used at least a little already. Hopefully this gets the ball rolling. Thanks SO MUCH in advance for any comments and help!

Also forgot to mention the ceiling: - Currently it is a drop ceiling of "acoustic" panels - but my guess is they aren't very acoustic . . . There is hardwood floor on the first floor of the house, so under that are floor joists which I believe are 2 x 8 approx. There aren't any utilities running through the cavity except one HVAC pipe that will go into the live room, which I'm okay with leaving as is. My plan was to take down the drop ceiling, insulate the cavities between the floor joists, and hang 5/8'' drywall, attached to the floor joists. Any issues with that? Thanks!

It would be better if you could set up new joists to support a decoupled ceiling or use isolation clips. RC-2 as a last option. Otherwise the sund will flank through the structure. Adding mass up against the upper floor will also help. A wise investment is getting a copy of Rod Gervais' book Home Recording Studio Build It Like. The Pros 2nd Ed.

It would be better if you could set up new joists to support a decoupled ceiling or use isolation clips. RC-2 as a last option. Otherwise the sund will flank through the structure. Adding mass up against the upper floor will also help. A wise investment is getting a copy of Rod Gervais' book Home Recording Studio Build It Like. The Pros 2nd Ed.

Thanks for the reply gullfo. I checked out the book on Amazon, as you say it may be a wise investment indeed. As for new joists - would you suggest they be connected to the interior wall framing then - if I didn't go with isolation clips? I understand about the flanking through the ceiling into the floor, it makes sense, but what am I realistically looking at the difference being in simple terms. Like if I were playing a standard rock volumes, 110 - 120 dB, how much is going to be coming through to the room above? Enough to make it impractical? Thanks again

At first I was a little concerned with losing height by having to put the new ceiling joists on the new walls, but then I realized that I could put them between the existing 1st floor joists. There is plenty of space for them. However, I'm trying to figure out how I would do that with the big existing "I" beam running through the ceiling. The "I" beam is attached to the existing 1st floor joists. So, I can't attach my new ceiling to it or it will create a flanking path. However, if I build the ceiling below it I'm going to be losing a good 6'' of height, which is already pretty low to begin with. I don't think this will be a problem in the live room (9' x 11' in the drawing - on the right), but for the control room and vocal booth on the left I'm not sure how I would be able to support the ceiling and get around this "I" beam. Any thoughts? Thanks

So I just got off the phone with a sales rep at a local building specialty store. He suggested not going with the staggered stud, and rather using RC1 for the walls (which was quoted @ 12' piece $3.06). He said the studs would be 16'' OC. He also suggested using the Roxul ThermoFiber (which he quoted @ $.46 a sq/ft). Furthermore, he suggested leaving the drop ceiling, insulating the floor joist cavity and the acoustic ceiling with the Roxul. Does this all seem like sound advice? Do these seem like good prices (for Mid-West USA market)? BTW he also quoted 1/2'' Quietrock @ $40.00 a 4'x8' sheet. Anyone ever use this stuff? Seems pretty expensive. Thanks

you need mass to isolate. hard contact means flanking. having a set of 110db drums below the bay's room means 75db or so in the baby's room... adding the proper amount of mass to the floor and constructing a proper decoupled ceiling means 25db in the baby's room unless there are major flanking issues via the floor (which can be solved significantly by using isolation platforms under the drums and amps). :idea: for the beam - you might have to sister up some wood beams (supported on the isolation wall) to cross that space (in parallel to the steel beam) in order to support the ceiling and still have it decoupled. also, unless you cannot spare it, do not put your walls on the same plates. use fully separate walls with a 1" gap. yes, you'll likely loose some space but the isolation will go way up.

gullfo, Thanks again for the reply. The basement room isn't actually directly under the new baby's room. We have a quad-level house, so in fact, the room above the planned studio room is our dinning room. The basement as a whole is not under the bedrooms of the house at all (see attached drawing). Are you saying a drywall ceiling IS going to be better than the current drop ceiling (plus insulation)? The sales rep was leading me to believe that the drop ceiling, plus the insulation I would be adding, would be the better choice for sound quality IN the room. I told him I was more concerned with isolation at this time, and he still was steering me towards the drop ceiling. What I do with the I beam depends on the ceiling configuration for sure. For the walls, to do two with a 1'' gap, I'm guessing I can use a standard 2x4 for the plates. That would mean 4'' plate - 1'' gap - 4'' plate for a total of 9''. Plus the wall material itself. Probably losing a foot of space, if the isolation is that much greater I think I could handle that. On the wall material, if I do the two sep. walls, should I still go with RC for mounting the drywall? And as for the drywall, I don't think green glue is going to be in my budget. So, if I use two layers, simply by screwing them both up (to either the studs or RC whichever is better), do I get a noticable benefit? Furthering on that, would two layers of 1/2'' be better than one layer of 5/8''? So many questions - I am trying to learn though - I'm sure everyone was in a similar boat at one time, right? THANKS again!

No RC on separated walls. Use 2x 5/8" instead of 2x 1/2". The drop ceiling may help acoustics but nothing for isolation except perhaps some quiet speech. For drums and amps you need decoupled mass whether it's walls or ceiling. Sound is 3 dimensional.

is (2) 5/8'' without green glue okay? for budget reasons (remember I'm trying to strike a balance on effectiveness and cost), would (2) of 1/2'' be okay? Since the total width would then be 1' vs (1) of 5/8'' I understand the statement on the ceiling - I thought it was pretty silly to think the drop ceiling would hold anything back myself. Thanks

2x 5/8" without GG is common and useful. remember adding the mass on the existing floor is part of the equation to achieving a high level of isolation with a reasonable cost.

gullfo - the current floor is solid concrete. Seems pretty "massive". Agree? I read somewhere else on the forum that two layers of 1/2" is no good. Agree? Will probably just stick with the one layer of 5/8" unless when I get further along on the budget it seems that I can swing two. Is the mold/moisture resistant worth the premium (basically double price - if not more)? Since the drywall won't be in direct contact with the floor, but rather acoustic caulk, seems like that eliminates one potential for mositure getting into the wall. We are talking about a basement build here though . . . After some more thought on it I do think I'm going to need to do a new ceiling. What I'm thinking is: -Take down the existing drop ceiling -Save the panels (can I use them from room treatment?). -Stuff the existing joist cavity with insulation. -Create a seperate joist frame connected only to my decoupled new interior walls. Need to figure out the span/load info for the new ceiling. Hints? -Lay insulation on top of new 5/8" drywall ceiling On a positive note, over the weekend I was able to pick up two VERY heavy, solid doors. 2" thick, 35/5" wide. I visited two local shops that sell reclaimed building materials from buildings being torn down or renovated. The doors I got were from a commercial or industrial installation. I paid $10 ea for them! I couldn't buy material to build my own for that. Seems like there are several of these types of stores around, could be good for others to check into something like this - plus from what I understand the money goes to charity. Here are some links: http://www.habitat.org/restores/default.aspx http://www.buildingvalue-cincy.org/ http://www.stvincentdayton.org/decon_depot.html Thanks

the upper floor is what i meant by existing floor... if it's concrete - great, if its wood joists and wood subfloor + finish floor, then i'd suggest adding the mass there. if you build out the room correctly you can add the additional layers later. if you have moisture in your basement - a) fix it, b) consider a proper dehumidification system, c) use the paperless drywall. the ceiling plan sounds good. http://www.awc.org/calculators/span/cal ... cstyle.asp the acoustic tiles can be re-used by stacking them or placed on the new ceiling drywall.

My mistake on the floor question. The existing first floor is: -Subfloor (as it is an older home, 1965, I believe these are 2 x 8 approx., laid diagonal to the walls) -Hardwood floor (not sure on the dimensions) -Carpet We are however considering refinishing the hardwood, so the carpet will most likely be removed at some point. Is the suggestion then to add drywall strips in between the joists under the existing subfloor?

if you build out the room correctly you can add the additional layers later.

Not sure I completely follow where you are talking about here. As for moisture, we bought this house in March of this year. The previous owners mentioned some water intrusion back in '08, however they had it fixed professionally and did not ever have any issues beyond that. So, if I'm reasonably confident there is not longer a moisture issue, which I have no reason to believe there is as we have had many heavy rains since moving in with no signs of any seepage, I can go with standard drywall? Thanks,

yes, i'm suggesting adding the additional layers on the underneath of the upper floor. since you are suggesting going with only a single layer of 5/8" drywall for now, just make sure you can add the additional layers later if you need to. good news then on the moisture so you should be able to use normal drywall.

Okay, understand on all fronts I think. I'm working up an updated drawing (with sketchup, as I spent a little more time with it and have it figured out enough to make it work), and will post that soon. Thanks again for the assistance!

On the subject of insulation, is Roxul a better choice than fiberglass for the cavity spaces? I received a quote for $.46 sq/ft of Roxul from the same guy that was trying to say the drop ceiling would be okay . . . I received a quote for Johns Manville 814 (OC 703 equivilant?) for $1.32 sq/ft I've seen others on the forum using R-13, R-19, Rockwool, Roxul, and all sorts of other types. What's the best bet on price/performance? Thanks

mshetler.design wrote:

On the subject of insulation, is Roxul a better choice than fiberglass for the cavity spaces? I received a quote for $.46 sq/ft of Roxul from the same guy that was trying to say the drop ceiling would be okay . . . I received a quote for Johns Manville 814 (OC 703 equivilant?) for $1.32 sq/ft I've seen others on the forum using R-13, R-19, Rockwool, Roxul, and all sorts of other types. What's the best bet on price/performance?

Roxul, Rockwool, Fiberglas are all trademarks. R-13, R-19 etc are the same or similar insulation in different thicknesses. For in wall use the cheapest is about the best. Yes, the cheapest is the best. The goal is to just about fill the cavity. Have fun saving money and making it sound better! Andre

I think I was starting to realize that I all the talk about 703 etc. was more for treament not for construction. Hopefully an easy newbie mistake . . . At any rate, so you're saying I can go with anything, as long as it is unfaced (to avoid adding an extra leaf)? Nice!

faced or unfaced is ok

just when I thought I was starting to understand . . . :oops:

So, I'm having a little trouble figuring out how to do the new ceiling joists. I don't know what to do about the I beam. I know my HVAC rendering is pretty poor, but I just started using sketchup about three days ago. Any help would be amazing as I'm trying to get my drawings finalized, or close to it, so I can submit for my building permits, so I can start my build process during the vacation time I need to use up before the end of the year. Please check out the attached images and give some feedback if you can - THANKS in advance:

Unfortunately I don't have access to sketchup right now to update the drawing, but I realized that if I shorten the double wall in the middle, and fill in the gap with the rear wall, then I should save a little bit of material. Still puzzled on the new ceiling though . . . If I were to put new joists in perpendicular to the old ones, I would lose another 4'' - 5'' inches off the ceiling, and that's getting pretty tight. My original idea was to run the new joists parallel to the old ones, but because of the I beam that won't be possible in the room on the left. Should I consider RC on the existing joists? If so, what sort of weight limits does RC have? Can I mount one layer of 5/8'' on it for a ceiling? Two layers? If I do wind up going with RC for the ceiling, I think I would remove both the right wall and rear wall, as I only put them in thinking I would need them to suspend the ceiling. Behind both of those is the existing concrete block wall of the basement that (I don't think) needs to have another wall in front of it. If I can get away with not having to build those out, it will save me material, time, and space in the rooms. However, if they are required for the ceiling structure, or would simply be better than leaving the concrete, I suppose I could live with building them too. Suggestions? THANKS!

http://www.kineticsnoise.com/arch/ceilings.aspx - using the isolation clips on the joists or adding the spring units and suspend the ceiling. both will only take about 2" away with the spring unit being more expensive but more decoupled - maybe use the clips on the CR and the springs on the live room. for the beam, create some parallel trusses to support the necessary drywall and keep things decoupled. same for the duct work. use soffits on the ceiling as needed for your ventilation unless you can embed the ventilation into the ceiling itself. contemplate the need for HVAC baffle boxes for at least the air exchange and consider split unit heat pumps for cooling/heating.