SMALL Basement Project Studio Build Project

Glenn (sorry this is gonna be a long one), I am with you on the parallel trusses around the I beam, I guess my concern was if that span (~11 feet) of unsupported truss, would be okay for the ceiling support. I suppose they are only there for a chase/soffit around the I beam though. Most of the HVAC pipe is up in the existing joist cavity. The stuff that isn't I will put a soffit around. The block window in the live room has a portion in the middle that can be opened. I was considering utilizing this somehow for ventallation - admittadly I haven't given a whole lot of thought to it yet - I know I need to. There is one vent at the end of the HVAC into the live room already. My inital thought was to tap into that pipe for one into the CR as well. Not sure about cold air returns yet though. I know I need to look up the baffle boxes for sure. Just talked to a rep for Kinetics, the clips are coming in at $5.25 ea, plus a $25 "open box" charge since I probably wouldn't need the full 72 that come in a box. Additionally, if I understand this design correctly, I would need 7/8 furring as well. Do you have a good source for those? Before I saw your post, I called Clark Western. Tech support says that they do NOT recommend mounting two layers of 5/8'' on the RC-1 (but that one is okay). You can use RC-2 for two layers of 5/8'' and they can be 24'' OC. I would probably need about 14 pcs. I got a quote from a local drywall dist. for the RC-2 @ $5.15 a 12' piece. Unfortunate seeing how the RC-1 is $1.70 a 12' piece . . . But structural integrity is important and worth the premium. SO - I guess that means I need to decide: - Am I going to use RC or clips for the ceiling? Advantages/disadvantages for each? - If I do, am I going to use one layer or two layers of 5/8" drywall for the ceiling - If I only do one layer for the ceiling, does it not make sense to do two for the walls? As the sound goes out the weakest link, it seems the extra on the walls wouldn't be worth anything if there wasn't extra on the ceiling. Correct? The drywall dist also gave me a better price on 5/8'' than I found @ Lowes/Home Depot, and was willing to give me a pretty decent discount on the qty I needed too. So, back to the question at hand, what to do about that ceiling?

the clips with the hat channel / furring strips (should be readily available in most building suppliers) will be better than the RC-2. use 2x 5/8" drywall on the clips/hat channel. remember that to really be effective, the upper floor should be beefed up with 2x or 3x drywall as well. use pink insulation in the cavity. the ventilation really needs to be worked out as you are build sealed rooms and the heat and CO2 will quickly become a problem. most times people want their studio HVAC separate from the home system because the cycles will vary and you may need cooling in the winter in your studio while the rest of the house needs heat. there's a couple of options: a) install a split system which provides a blower unit to each room and set up an air exchange system (perhaps with an EVR to improve efficiency and balance the air temperature/moisture). b) use something like a small hidden duct system to add another centralized unit which then uses ducts to each room for supply and return. the air exchange would then be part of the blower unit. in either case you want to minimize the amount of noise the system makes and minimize the amount of sound transferred between rooms or outside of the studio so baffle boxes and so on become part of the equation. when in doubt, talk to an HVAC professional about what you're going to need.

Glenn, Understand on the heat and CO2. A whole sep. unit seems like it would completely eat up my $2000 budget. Unless I'm mistaken, I was under the impression that HVAC systems are not cheap. I was wondering about something like this for my glass block window (which already has an operable center section): http://www.vent-maxx.com/ Don't know how quiet, or effective this would be - or if this is even the particular brand to go with, but it was the first I found on a quick search. I was thinking if something like that would work, I could create a small duct from the rear right corner of the CR to the LR where the window is. I have a friend in HVAC so I'll probably try to get a hold of him. Understand on beefing up the exisiting upper floor - I'm planning on adding strips of drywall inbetween the exising joists. Really need 2 or 3 x though? Seems like since the subfloor and hardwood is above, that one layer would add enough mass. I'm having trouble finding the furring strips / hat channel on sites like home depot, etc. so I'm guessing I should call the drywall dist. back up and check that out. Still though, I understand your opinion is that the clips and channel is the better option than the RC-2, but it seems like price is a pretty big jump up as well. Any data on the performance difference? Perhaps an alternative idea, is there a way to utilize the existing joists around the I beam with some sort of decoupler for the new joists? That way I could avoid having to come up with the alternate system for the whole ceiling and only use it around the I beam and I could go with my original plan of creating new joists inbetween the old ones and suspend the new ceiling from it. See attached drawing.

i think a proper beam in parallel would be needed as you're only going what? 7'-8' in that section? note: the requisite blocking is not shown here but is needed.

Glenn, I'm not sure I completely follow or if we're on the same page. If you look at the drawings I posted last night, I'm not trying to put a wall up on either side of the beam. Yours looks like there is one there (left side of your pic). Also, I'm not sure I follow on the 2x12. I did a span calc and it looked like I could run the new joists the span of the two rooms either perpendicular (~11') or paralell (~8.5') with the old joists and be okay on the load - I even thought I over estimated it to make sure. Maybe I did it wrong? What are you using the 2x12 for? Sorry if I missed something obvious or seem dense on this one. Thanks again!

Also, any reason there are two top plates? Thanks,

just normal load bearing wall construction... you might not need it in this situation but my ruby script output it like that so who am i to fight it? :wink:

the idea in mine is to decouple on the isolation walls and not load the existing joists or risk coupling to them - it may be the 2x12 is too much but you need to clear the steel beam and maybe you could go to a 2x10 etc. it's more important to get the concept and you can work out the right structure sizing with an engineer who can review your existing joists, floors, footings etc.

Ruby script eh? If it is available online care to point me in the right direction? Understand about not coupling to the existing joists, but still don't understand about that wall by the I beam. I'm trying to get around having to build the walls on either side of it. If I put a wall on both sides to support the ceiling that cuts my CR in half (~5' wide) and creates a small room on the left (~2.5' wide). I must be missing something.

I'm glad our laundry room is in the basement, and that I'm somewhat lazy when it comes to laundry as I have to go down there just about every morning to get clothes because it has forced me to look at my studio space every morning. I think I figured out the I beam issue. There is a ~2x4 above the beam connecting it to the existing joists, which run perpendicular to it. Since there is the full clearance of the old joists, plus the 2x4, above it, I can run my new joists OVER the I beam, without contact, and still drop them the 1/4'' I need for clearance on the new ceiling! When constructing the ceiling, when I get to the beam I will build a soffit. Hopefully this all sounds good and correct - I'll try to model it soon. Thanks

Thinking on it a bit, I think I would still need to notch the new joists around the I beam support 2x4. I think about 1/2'' notch or so - 1/4'' for the difference in height for the new ceiling below the old joists, and additional 1/4'' to prevent and unintended coupling. Any structrual issues with doing this? I realize that would effect the span strength - however I'm not clear on the span calculator. For ref. I have included three screen shots of the calc. with 2x4, 2x6, and 2x8 joists. I set the dead load to 20, even though I think that is a big over estimate: 5/8'' drywall high estimate is 2.5 x 2 layers = 5 2x10, 16'' OC = 2.7 2x8, 16'' OC = 2.1 2x6, 16'' OC = 1.6 Even with 2x10 and two layers of 5/8 I'm looking at 7.7, well under the 20 I put in on the calculator. Obviously I wouldn't be using 2x4 for the new joists, as confirmed by the calculator. My spans are both going to be around 8.5' or so. * ref viewtopic.php?p=51414 My question is more on the notching. See 1st/2nd pics.

mshetler.design wrote:

If I put a wall on both sides to support the ceiling that cuts my CR in half (~5' wide) and creates a small room on the left (~2.5' wide).

what i'd proposing is to put in the wood beam to allow you to span the gap in that space without coupling and encase the steel beam so it's also isolated from the room. the isolation walls are the ones you will be wrapping around your space to create the MSM needed. i may have misinterpreted something in your floor plan where there is some indent into your space but you don't need to cut off part of your room, just ensure the wall support is sufficient for the new beams. I'm not sure about the notching esp given the span length but I see what you're trying to do, however, your steel beam is still exposed in the room and will be conducting all that sound directly into the foundation and upper floor and vice versa. maybe resting the new joist notches on 1/2" neoprene on the beam will be enough decoupling and support.

I get what you're saying about the neoprene - I was actually thinking something similar. In all honesty I was thinking I would probably still build a soffit around the beam - limiting its exposure to the sound in the room. I was just trying to figure out the new joists/ceiling issue first. However, if you think adding the neoprene without the soffit would do the trick, then I may consider not doing the soffit, as it would save time, matieral, etc. My concern has now turned to the windows. Since I will be framing out new walls infront of the existing concrete walls, and since I don't want to close off access to the existing glass block windows - because of the desire to use the one for ventialltion, and for some natural light in the space if possible - what should I do with the openings I need to leave in the new walls? Standard windows that can open and close? Some sort of removable seal? Thanks

Quick question about beefing up the existing upper floor. The drywall I'm adding under the upper floor - does it need to be snug inbetween the existing joists? Reason I ask, my walls are all going to be approx 7' tall. So, when I cut my drywall to fit, in both cases of horizontal and vertical application (2 layers), I'm going to end up with a 1' strip of drywall cut off. The space between the existing joists is approx 14''. So, if I use the 1' strips and have a 1'' gap on both sides between the joists, is that sufficient for beefing it up? Or do the 1'' gaps create too much of a space for the sound to escape (understanding that any gap is a space for sound to escape - just not sure if this portion needs to be "airtight"). If I can use these strips that would be great and let me get the most out of my materials (and reduce cost).

you want the drywall to fit about 1/4" on each side (13.5" for a 14" space) and use backer rod (or not) and caulk, staggering the seams and ultimately using cleats and caulk to seal. even if you go with the joists sitting on the beam you still need to soffit the steel beam to avoid transfers... hence i was just trying to kill two birds by having a parallel set of beams to support the joists and soffit in the steel beam...

Glenn, See the attached pic - this is where I'm confused on your drawing. The wall in the red circle shouldn't be there - as there is no wall parrallel with the I beam. It also looks like you have the existing basement wall with an indent, which isn't correct either. The rear existing wall is 18'1'' across, no bends or indents.

- Do the two layers of drywall on the outside need to be different thickness than the two layers on the inside? - If different thickness, my instinct is thicker on the inside, correct? - Also a two leaf between live room and control room, need different thickness? Which side thicker? - Can I hang things (guitars on wall hangers, acoustic treatment, pictures, etc.) on either the interior or exterior leaf?

use 2x 5/8" drywall skip using different sizes. go with a 3rd layer if possible. yes, you can hang things on the walls recognizing any vibration and resonances which may arise and need to be dampened with some bits of rubber etc.

- Do I create a sealed "tube" to the windows from my new wall? (seems that this would create a flanking path between new wall and old wall) - Should I use a window in the new frame? - Would a window AC in the glass block space be effective?

no don't seal it but do use a window in the isolation wall. the window AC unit may create quite a bit of noise and vibration.

- Do I need to use putty pads? - Do I caulk around the receptacle face plate?

YES/ NO

- Do I need to use putty pads for audio panel? - Do I caulk around the audio panel?

[/quote][/quote] YES/NO

mshetler.design wrote:

no bends or indents.

sorry, i saw this and thought it was an existing bit: download/file.php?id=36291&mode=view here's what i think you want to do to properly create the ceiling and the soffiting for the existing beam.

Glenn, I think we're on the same page with the I beam now. Thanks for working through it with me! I think understand where the confusion was with that wall indent - I removed the small room in the bottom left corner from my design because after deciding to go with double wall construction instead of staggered stud construction, I just didn't have the space to spare. On the 3 layers comment: I just got off the phone with the building inspector and they said MIN. floor to ceiling was 7'. I'm going to be right at that with two layers of 5/8'' on the ceiling. So, I couldn't add another one up there. I'm guessing from the "sound is 3 dimensional" perspective, add more layers to the walls doesn't make sense then as it is going to go out the path of least resistance, which would be the ceiling. Quite frankly the ceiling is where I'm most concerned about isolation anyway. Adding additional to the walls (beyond the planned 4 total layers of 5/8'' - two inside, two outside), doesn't really make sense for me. Understand on the window in the isolation wall. Understand that the AC would probably be pretty loud. My thoughts were that it would be used in between tracking. Still working through that portion of the idea. Understand on the caulking/puddy pads. Understand on wall hanging. I thought that made sense as a lot of the treaments I have seen are wall hanging. I think I'm in the home stretch of construction planning (hopefully), so treament is my next big concern. From what I understand, since my rooms will be pretty small (approx. 8 x 10 x 7), I want to go for complete deadening. Right? What's the best coarse of action there? Foam? Panels?

After looking a little closer at the numbers, looks like I may not be able to squeeze the two layers of 5/8'' on the ceiling and have the 1/4'' clearance below the existing joists that I was counting on and still get a 7' floor to ceiling height. I'll need to remeasure the distance from the floor to the joists again to confirm, but I'm pretty sure it is 85.25''. SO - 85.25 - .25 (clearance) = 85 85 - 1.25 (two layers of 5/8 drywall) = 83.75'' = 6' 11 3/4'' I'm off by 1/4''. I don't think there is anyway to get the two layers in there, even with iso clips or RC and still get my 7' floor to ceiling. The only place I can think to make it up is switching the drywall. I'd have to use only one layer. All the layers need to be equal right? So, it would make beefing up the walls with two layers worthless then, and my isolation goes way down. Am I correct on that? Man I hope when I go back and measure it I find out I was wrong the first time . . . :cry:

beef up inside the upper existing floor as much as possible and use a single layer? or maybe ask the building inspector if you can be off by 1/4"? keep the 2x on the walls. just make sure that you are building only double leaf and not triple leafs walls. your existing concrete/block walls count as one of your leafs so you're only build a single inner isolation wall there. on the new walls separating the two rooms - back-to-back walls with mass on the side facing the rooms. separated frames by at least 1" (giving you a total of 8" of air space). use pink insulation for all of the isolation cavities. on the treatments - my preference - live. add the angles, slats, polys, absorbers, panel traps, hangers, diffusers, etc to get the "reverberation" down to the proper levels across the frequency spectrum without making it dead. symmetry in the CR, asymmetry in the tracking room.

Quick question on windows. I'm planning on having a good sized window from the CR to LR. My father in law gave me the glass panels out of some patio doors a while ago. Would these be usefull here, or do I need something thicker? If I was to use this material, I was planning on mounting at least one at an angle to reduce sympathy vibration. Was also planning on using the window mounting methods outlined in John's instructions. Thanks,

the glass should match the mass used on the walls. typically this is 3/8"-1/2" or even more. maybe it's possible to laminate some of the glass into thick enough panels. the angling won't solve much of anything except some light reflections because of the shallow angles involved. better off to leave the parallel and leverage that air space.

Glenn, John says 5/16'' is okay, and that the glass "must be on an angle" here: http://johnlsayers.com/Recmanual/Titles/Acoustics3.htm Just curious if you have had personal experience different to what John is suggesting. Thanks. Also, was considering these exhaust fans to pump the stale air out of the two rooms via a short duct run up to that glass block window with the openable section: http://airking.ventingdirect.com/air-ki ... eId=285375 Comments?

i usually recommend a minimum 3/8" (10mm) because anything less is simply less isolation. ultimately you want to get to the point where your basement floor becomes the weakest TL point (flanking). if you're only going with 2x drywall layers, then you might get away with the 5/16" but it will likely be a weak point in your TL. the angles you can achieve on a normal wall is really only effective for optical reflections and unless you have the ability to make the wall/window deep enough to create a steeper angle than you would typically have, it won't really do much. the resonance structure set up by angling them is minimal but the TL is slightly reduced because of the air gap reduction. however, many studios have angled glass and if you want to do it, then just do it - but consider using heavier glass. and there are many factors in making a studio work well and some minimal changes in TL or resonances may be subjectively countered by having better visibility and communications between the CR and live room or booths. i am in agreement with John on the slider doors (angled or parallel if necessary), even though the normal sliders have less isolation, they're very handy for home builders and a pair of exterior grade slider doors yield (in most cases) a sufficient level of isolation for home studio use. for pro studios, there are commercial sliders which make the grade for excellent isolation and visibility but are $$$.