LEDE Design control room is obsolete? RFZ is a good choice?

This is my question: LEDE Design control room is obsolete? RFZ is a good choice? Where I can find info about RFZ design concept? any BOOK? Best regards

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LEDE Design control room is obsolete? RFZ is a good choice?

RFZ, definitely. As far as I'm concerned, LEDE was an interesting experiment that almost worked, but RFZ really does work, and seems easier to do. (I'm sure others will have different opinions!)

Where I can find info about RFZ design concept? any BOOK?

Look around this forum! There is stacks on information on RFZ: Also, Rod's book gives some help with that, and MHoA is basic to understanding the concepts. - Stuart -

Thanks Stuart!

Soundman2020 wrote:

RFZ, definitely. As far as I'm concerned, LEDE was an interesting experiment that almost worked, but RFZ really does work, and seems easier to do.

+1. For some additional information http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1370&hilit=lede and http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2173&hilit=ess touch upon the fashion of various control room methodologies. MHoA is about as good as it gets for describing RFZ. The NARAS 5.1 recommendations touch upon it in by specification of acoustic parameters but not by name. Andre

Thanks for information Andre! Sorry for my ignorance, but NARAS 5.1 is an other book? Might you recommend to me some another book where it treats deeply about the RFZ design? Or only with the MHOA Book is it sufficient for to be able design a good control room RFZ? John

JohnForce wrote:

Sorry for my ignorance, but NARAS 5.1 is an other book?

NARAS is The Nataional Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences. Alos known as the Grammy group. The full reference of the text is "The Recording Academy's Producers and Engineers Wing Production"Recommendations for Surround Sound. Yes, that is a link. The document is free.

Might you recommend to me some another book where it treats deeply about the RFZ design?

Not for starters. MHOA is about as good as it gets. After that you are dealing with control room factors.

Or only with the MHOA Book is it sufficient for to be able design a good control room RFZ?

That is an open ended question. :!: Any good control room design involves much more than just the design concepts. Andre

Sorry for occuping this thread but I always thought LEDE is actually a (special) RFZ Design.

Thanks everybody for the replies!!

Sorry for occuping this thread but I always thought LEDE is actually a (special) RFZ Design.

No, its the other way around. RFZ is the evolution of LEDE, since LEDE didn't work out too well. So far, RFZ seems to be the best system to date. But who knows if some genius might come up with something even better at some point. (Hopefully, it will be something that allows even a tiny room to sound fantastic! :) ) - Stuart -

Sorry, I must disagree Stuart - RFZ was the original idea of Tom Hidely in the early 70s, arguably the father of studio design. LEDE followed later in the late 80s early 90s then faded away.

John Sayers wrote:

Sorry, I must disagree Stuart - RFZ was the original idea of Tom Hidely in the early 70s, arguably the father of studio design. LEDE followed later in the late 80s early 90s then faded away.

I am confused. Tom Hidley makes no mention of RFZ or LEDE on his Indusry Firsts pop-up. The list is still very impressive. In case anyone takes my comment as deprecating Tom Hidley, Tom Hidley is great! Andre

I wasn't aware of that either, John! Thanks for the correction. I always assumed that RFZ came later, after LEDE. Andre, I'm wondering if that comment from 1969 might have something to do with it: "8) Designed and built the first 3 angle control room wall and window system." Sounds like it might be RFZ-ish... - Stuart -

Peter D'Antonio claims that ""In the early 80s Dr. D'Antonio set out to identify the problems and goals of modern studio design and developed the concept of a reflection free zone around the mix position from early research by Don Davis, Chips Davis, Russ Berger and Neil Grant in Live-End-Dead-End studios. Either he or his company RPG® Acoustics Research owns the TM to the phrase "Reflection Free Zone", but I haven't been able to verify which one yet. http://www.rpginc.com/proaudio/psadvantage.htm But, the initial idea seems to have been developed earlier Acoustic Absorbers and Diffusers: Theory, Design and Application - Google Books Result The text also suggests that even the LEDE (even though it was in reverse order) concept was something that Thomas Hidley pioneered. I guess he used a different phrase for his concepts and was modest in his explanations.

AVare wrote:

John Sayers wrote:

Sorry, I must disagree Stuart - RFZ was the original idea of Tom Hidely in the early 70s, arguably the father of studio design. LEDE followed later in the late 80s early 90s then faded away.

I am confused. Tom Hidley makes no mention of RFZ or LEDE on his Indusry Firsts pop-up. The list is still very impressive. In case anyone takes my comment as deprecating Tom Hidley, Tom Hidley is great! Andre

Andre, and Stuart - Tom Hidley was the first to propose the theory that you should try to avoid the right speaker signals getting to your left ear. At the site you l;inked to it is described as "8) Designed and built the first 3 angle control room wall and window system." He added a lesser angle between the monitor angle (30 degrees) and the side wall @ 12 degrees @ approx 24 degrees - this allowed him to have a wide front to accommodate the increasingly long consoles that were being built then. he also developed the compression ceiling you see in the QUAD room above but he dropped them in later years and actually reversed the angle. I was able to see a Hidley designs in construction when I was in LA in 1974, (Kendun) in Sydney at Paradise, (1979) Melbourne at Armstrong AAV (1982) and in Singapore where 3 Hidley rooms were being built. (1992)

Interesting...

At the site you l;inked to it is described as "8) Designed and built the first 3 angle control room wall and window system." He added a lesser angle between the monitor angle (30 degrees) and the side wall @ 12 degrees @ approx 24 degrees - this allowed him to have a wide front to accommodate the increasingly long consoles that were being built then.

Thanks John. That makes sense. So it seems like he came up with the idea first, but didn't actually call it a "reflection free zone". It looks like someone else gave it that name later. I guess that's why I didn't associate it with him. I always wondered about those compression ceilings, and how they were supposed to work. What was the theory behind that? - Stuart -

I always wondered about those compression ceilings, and how they were supposed to work. What was the theory behind that?

I have no idea Stuart - they appeared to work or did they? take Music Farm. http://www.johnlsayers.com/Pages/Music_Farm2.htm The Music Farm control room had a beautiful bass response. But was it the compression ceiling or the hanger bass traps above? I suspect it was the hanger bass traps above. the whole ceiling above the visible ceiling was hangers hence the term Bass Trap.

Thanks John for the clarification. With RFZ being (as you correctly identified) a trademarked phrase, even though it has become a "public trademark", it is quite logical that Tom Hidely would avoid using that phrase. His angled side walls are definitely in the spirit of, if not completely designed to the same principles. Andre

for what it's worth...from the RPG website http://www.rpginc.com/proaudio/psadvantage.htm

Dr. D'Antonio has also been associated with the music industry since 1973 as a musician, recording engineer and audiophile. In 1973 he designed Underground Sound, the prototypical studio which set the stage for modern control room design. This studio defined the philosophy of combining a reflection-free zone, RFZ™ around the mix position and a diffuse zone using RPG® diffusors in the rear, to provide passive surround sound

. it goes on to say.. Dr. D'Antonio claims that "In those days there was a clear difference between the recording hardware and the acoustical design in professional and 'semi-pro' studios." In the early 80s Dr. D'Antonio set out to identify the problems and goals of modern studio design and developed the concept of a reflection free zone around the mix position from early research by Don Davis, Chips Davis, Russ Berger and Neil Grant in Live-End-Dead-End studios. I'm sincerely curious though. IF LEDE is obsolete, it must be the QRD part that caused it to become obsolete, as RFZ has now become the defacto element...how is it that RPG is still in business, as the whole LEDE ball of wax included QRD's as a main element in the design...and they still sell them big time. :? I mean even John told me they don't work....remember John? So......WTF is going on? Either they DO..(or why would Wes Lachot use them?) Or they don't. Which is it? :roll:

cadesignr wrote:

I'm sincerely curious though. IF LEDE is obsolete, it must be the QRD part that caused it to become obsolete, as RFZ has now become the defacto element...how is it that RPG is still in business,

RFZ design is an evoloulton of LEDE. It did not dismiss LEDE concepts wholesale, rather it refined them. Andre