Basement studio in Illinois: I'm on the 10 year plan

I have been stuck in the planning stages for a basement recreational studio for about 1 year now. You can see some old posts here http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11629 and here http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11852&p=86823&hilit=jlehan#p86823 . Here's the current sketchup file/layout. http://www.box.net/shared/m5q5k0o3tt To recap, I'm looking to build a functional control room with a small tracking room (for vocals, acoustic guitars, etc, but no drum kit). This is primarily recreational, “in the box” stuff using sampling, and I write and record some commercials for our business. I'm concerned about having a nice control room for mixing. I have Rod's book twice (some sections 10x trying to understand whats going on). I have been reading the forums for about 1 1/2 years, focusing on all those "basment build" posts. I have no construction background, although I am fairly handy. I'm a pharmacist and my wife is an MBA, and we work for the family pharmacy/home medical business. We are “DINKs” right now (Dual Income, No Kids), and I am willing to invest what is necessary to build a quality space. I plan on putting it in the basement, and I realize all the problems and pitfalls associated with that. It is fairly new construction (2007) and we are the first owners of the home. I've modeled the whole basement in sketchup, and Ive worked and reworked things. Like Mr. Gervais said in his book, planning ahead is the key to avoid major headaches down the road. Because of our business expanding in the past year, things have been on hold (hard to work on a studio when you are at work over 60+ hours per week). I now have a little more time, so its back to focusing some more on the studio. My sketchup design is not perfect, i realize, on all the details.. I plan on doing the inside-out Sayers design. We are about to start the “beef up phase”. We have lots of nails/tacks sticking through the floor, so we'll putting foam (styrofoam-like) hard to the deck, then 2 layers of 5/8 drywall with green glue sandwiched and acoustic sealant. Checked with the engineer and got the green light on weight added to the structure. We aren't removing the cross bridging, since it seems way harder to remove it then reattach it instead of just working around it and living with the lost isolation from the small areas without the extra beef. I plan on getting the appropriate permits and inspections for the work (I plan on living here for 40+ years, I want this to be very SAFE) So I wonder.... 1. What the hell am I doing? Should I even be attempting this on my own? I am comfortable with explaining techniques referenced on this site and in Mr. Gervais's book, but I'm afraid to trust contractors/others to accomplish the work correctly. Judging from many folks on here, there is a lot of untrustworthy "acoustic consultants" as well. The reality is I know very little about construction. I feel like I'll be stuck telling contractors/workers how to do the job, and they'll feel like I have no idea what I'm talking about. Any other non-construction folks done this on their own? 2. Any tips/experience for fire-blocking? I have to contend with the blocking between inner walls and foundation, inner walls of the two separate rooms, and the inner walls and outer walls. If someone has experience with that in the small home studio scale, let me now. I'll be doing my best to use Rod's book as a guide here. 3. HVAC....I live in Illinois. I have 90 degree summers and sometimes -20 degree winters. I have a forced-air heating system with ductwork throughout the basement and an air conditioner. Lots is made in Rod's book about getting the appropriate amount of fresh air into the studio. Has anyone accomplished that in a home studio in a similar climate? It seems to me one must heat the incoming air in the winter and cool it on the way in in the summer. Is that separate from the existing hvac heating/cooling? It is a two story 2850 sq foot house plus a basement...will circulating the air throughout the house using the existing hvac be enough (i.e. drawing fresh air from the top floor, etc. Did that make sense? 3. If i do the inside-out ceiling, the panels would be 13 feet across with 2 layers of 5/8 drywall + green glue. Holy crap they are going to be heavy! Anyone do a ceiling like that with any luck?...not sure how we'll hoist them up there. I'll try to document as we go with pictures. I've learned so much from this site, i hope my build will help others work on their own projects. Thanks ahead of time.

3. If i do the inside-out ceiling, the panels would be 13 feet across with 2 layers of 5/8 drywall + green glue. Holy crap they are going to be heavy! Anyone do a ceiling like that with any luck?...not sure how we'll hoist them up there.

One quick comment on that one: Build them in smaller sections and bolt them together once in place. Or build them with only one layer of 5/8 on the ground, then add the other layer using the "beef up between the joists" from below technique. - Stuart -

13 feet isn't a big span - two guys should be able to lift them up. As you are obviously decoupled using inside out the green glue is an expense I'd forgo.

Stuart: Thanks for the response: Great idea....I hadn't thought of either of those options. I like the 2nd one quite a bit...That would maintain ceiling height and reduce the amount of weight we need to hoist up there. John: Thanks for the advice as well....straight from the "horse's mouth"...can't argue with that. Since I've got you...a quick question with your take on fire-blocking. Britune had a plan for fireblocking on this page http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14136 at the wall/ceiling joint. I few posts down you suggested a design (which I believe he used) that doesn't use fireblocking. I know Mr. Gervais extensively explains his use of fireblocking in his book .... Do you use recommmend fireblocking for folks in your designs? Its one of the areas I'm most concerned about....

John Sayers wrote:

13 feet isn't a big span - two guys should be able to lift them up. As you are obviously decoupled using inside out the green glue is an expense I'd forgo.

Just a small point, perhaps, but damping materials don't decouple, and there is data to show adding damping to a decoupled frame increases TL quite a bit.

Well, we actually started. That's right, nails have been nailed...drywall has been placed...errr yeah. we started the "beef" process. I'm pretty sure we have put in about 10 or 12 hours of work for a total of 3 (out of 32) bays completed. Yikes. So my new goal is to finish this studio for my grandchildren...... In all seriousness..... we started the process of adding weight to the existing floor (we'll be using an independently framed ceiling, so this is to help with bass transmission/footfall). Wow....its a mess. First of all, for anyone who wants to do this in a basement.....there are TONS of tacks/nails, etc sticking through the floor. You have to get 4x8 sheets of 3/8" of "styrofoam" insulation to put up first to cover the nails (recommended by Rod Gervais in other posts on this forum....see the picture below so you know what we're talking about.) So you need tons of backer rod....other folks have recommended online places to buy this stuff...but you HAVE to get it in a giant industrial size roll. It requires TONS of this stuff. Also get a tool used to push screen into place. I took a picture of both so you know what to look for. It makes it into a very quick job. Ok...acoustic caulk. Blah...what a mess. (see picture). I have one of those "pro caulk" thingies from "as seen of tv"....it works to save extra caulk, but regardless its very messy and it takes a LOT of caulk to do this. If you push the backer rod in to far....it means more caulk to fill the space. We put put the styrofoam up with some adhesive and used backer rod on the edges. i didn't caulk that layer since it doesn't have any sound attenuation anyways. We used 1.25 inch finish nails to hold the styrofoam in place to allow the adhesive to set. I think probably the best thing (if i did it again) is to use 3M spray adhesive to hold that stuff up as you go. Ok so once that's up, you have to put the first layer of 5/8 drywall up, hold it in place, and caulk it. I have 3/8 backer rod, so we cut the drywall 1/4 inch short on each side. We made 2x4 T contraptions to jam them up hard to the deck so we could caulk. I used a 4" metal spatula to shift the drywall back and forth so you get an even space on each side (1/4 " or so) once its jammed into place. Backer rod, then caulk those damn edges and make a mess of yourself. I used surgical gloves (i'm in healthcare) since its so darn messy. Then Put some more 4D finish nails up to hold that in place, remove the 2x4 contraptions and pray it doesn't all fall down. Fantastic, it stayed! Repeat with 2nd layer of 5/8 drwall. No finish nails this time...we got 1x2 ledger board and placed it below the 2nd layer of drywall and screwed it in place (see rod's book). We found it works well for one person to use a piece of ledger board to push up on the ledger board you are going to use to hold the drywall in place. You can get it a lot more secure this way then trying to hold it up tight with one hand and drill with the other. So what i didn't do because it seems like a huge pain in my rear is remove the cross bridging. We are just leaving that place without drywall and hoping the increased mass of the whole floor will help, even though small sections don't have any beef added. Plus, we are putting an independently framed ceiling in anyways, and this is just a hobby studio. No reason to waste hours i guess. I added a picture so you can see where we stopped. Well 3 down, 29 to go. Sheesh. I'll post again when thats done. Probably 2012.

For the larger readership, damping compound + drywall directly on the underside of the subfloor would add mass and have directly damped the subfloor.

Ted, Thanks for the clarification.....I agree it would be more effective. I chose not to do it based on the cost/benefit of the additional cost of the green glue vs. how much sound attenuation I'll be happy with. Can't go wrong with more green glue.

If damping the vibrations in the subfloor was the goal, that would have been the approach. Regarding the amount of damping, it's dramatic if done right.

Well, my agonizingly slow studio build is continuing. Following the birth of a new baby, and what seemed like months of "beefing" up the floor joists...forward we move. This is such a great site....donate if you haven't already (it will save you way more $$$ in the long run!). Also, thanks to RJHollins for sharing recently...his build has been a great source for lots of good information pertinent to a basement build out and the challenges associated. I just had my HVAC installed....I chose to install a completely separate system for the studio from the main hvac in the house. I have no idea what I'm doing with HVAC, so I had a contractor take care of it. I had him read Rod's book and pertinent posts from the site, which he had copies on hand during the work. He did a great job....a fresh air intake from outside, appropriately sized cooling, silent ductwork...the whole nine. He said he actually loved learning about and doing something "different" than the normal HVAC stuff these guys do day to day (new builds, repair work, etc). So, we are on to framing! (i think) ... At this pace I'll be done in 2015. ...I have a few major bits of planning before the first nail is nailed...... #1. I'm planning on using a double framed wall, so we need to keep the interior walls away from the exterior walls and avoid "short circuits". This will require the appropriate sway braces and (neoprene pads underneath the bottom plates) to keep them in place and acoustically isolated from the existing structure. I have noticed there are what appear to be 3 options here: a. braces that attach from joist to wall (i've seem some that seem to attach in the center of the wall (page 240 or rod's book) ...these are wic clips i guess? b. some that attach the wall to the existing floor joists above. (RSIC clips) c. And finally, pPage 243 of rod's book shows free walls attached via RC2. It seems like there are quite a few ways to "skin the cat" here....any suggestions from anyone on the best choice? Differnet solutions for different areas? #2. The second major issue is I have is how to effectively create a fire stop at the top of each wall assembly while maintaining isolation. Rod does a nice job demonstrating how he envisions fire stopping for his wall assemblies.Up to this point I was thinking of standard interior walls with 2 layers of 5/8 gypsum with gg, and an "inside out" ceiling to maintain maximum height. (my sketchup file doesn't quite reflect this...need to move that drywall to the inside of the interior walls :-) Now i'm rethinking this as I can't think of how to effectively firestop the assembly. I've combed the message board looking for how people have gone about fire stops. I've checked out rivernile's post here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14452&hilit=fire+stop... as well as lots of other posts. The existing concrete exterior walls have only a very small (1/4") area to connect firestopping....the joists sit on a wood plate that sits on top of the concrete walls....not much room to work with (rod's model has a lot more room to place the 1/2" gypsum there) Can anyone think of a solution there? You can see this in my skp file. i was thinking running ledger board along the concrete wall at the top to make a larger "pad" to lay the gypsum? OR even: if a complete inside-out construction technique is used (2 layers of 5-8 gypsum on the OUTSIDE of the wall, is a fire stop necessary? Not much to burn if its just concrete wall, a concrete floor, gypsum and insulation.) #3. And lastly: how do you firestop/add bracing to the area in the picture below. IF i angle the walls, I leave a large gap in each corner? any help is MUCH appreciated. I can't wait to take the next step! my skp file http://www.box.net/shared/m03mr2nkt7 hvac is actual....the rest is proposed :-)

I prefer WIC or the RISC clips for support. On the fire stop, if you go with a rectangular wall structure for isolation it will be easier. Then build you inner treatments on angles. If you have less than the desired space, you can cut down the insulation to ensure you are not compressing it too much and end up coupling the walls. The caulking (fire caulk) is important as the insulation slows the flames but not the gases...

Thanks for the input....That makes a lot of sense....I guess I got hung up on "non parallel walls" there. I had planning using the opposite wall/corner of the monitoring room to create an angled wall in the small adjacent tracking room... Is it appropriate to keep that wall angled, or will one angled wall and one non-angled wall with treatments create assymetry at the mixing position?

Is it appropriate to keep that wall angled, or will one angled wall and one non-angled wall with treatments create assymetry at the mixing position?

Symmetry for the front half of the control room is very important. I would either keep the angle on both sides, or flatten both sides, but not leave it asymmetric. - Stuart -

As another alternative to isolation clips for a framed assembly you will find that sheathing your frames with OSB is a structurally sound way of gaining the stability the walls need to stand alone. This does assume that there will be a framed ceiling since the inclusion of the one (OSB sheathing) and the exclusion of the other (ceiling joists) could compromise the stability.

Xspace and Soundman: thanks for the input. I did see the suggestion to use sheathed walls on a build Rod did (referenced on RJHollins post)..... So it looks like the way to go is keeping the two walls the same. " de I'm thinking i'll use a combination of wic and risc clips depending on the framing requirements of each wall. As fare as firestopping goes.....might this be an alternative construction? Then I can firestop as shown in the second graphic over the large gap behind the monitor.... I know in one of the early skp files uploaded by John S, his "small studio" design showed walls angled at the corners, but didn't mentioned the firestopping plan....

Hmmm a late night epiphany. I couldn't quite figure out what was going on in this post (I read it it about 100 times) viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14452&hilit=fire+block I think what Rod was saying is shown below in my graphic.....does that seem right? Rockwool between the outer wall and the inner wall, (held in place with finishing nails, if necessary), and fire caulked on top to prevent "hot gasses".

So for the back wall....that fire stop won't work....the firest stop would need to be against the top plate of the outer wall....but the wall isn't high enough. I came up with two potential solutions.. the first is if I decide to do "inside-out" walls on the back wall....i theoretically could just extend the drywall up past the top plate of the inner wall, and then position the rockwool/cualk between the extended drywall and top plate of the outer walls. the second scenario is for normally framed walls...(drywall inside studio). Here i figure i could attach a strip of drywall to the top of the outer walls, then position the fire stop between this drywall and the top plate of the inner walls..... the only issue i see with these is they create a sort of 3-leaf effect...but there might not be any other options to create firestop assemblies. Am I on the right track?

John Sayers and Lilith_Envy advised me to build my firestop as shown below. That is what I did. I had two ceilings, one from iso hangers and one that was self supported with no connection to above. They both had the same detail shown below (but one had no iso clips). You have a great looking project. Best of luck!

Britune, Thanks for the info, and the compliment! Maybe you can speak further to this, and maybe not.... I'm trying to understand exactly what constitutes a "firestop"....from what I can tell from Rod's book (sorry, I'm a dummy when it comes to contruction.) there needs to be a fire-resistant barrier between two wall cavities. From that picture (and I think i'd seen it before somewhere on the site :-) ) fire could travel up from the side walls and into the ceiling cavity right? Is there a barrier between the two? Iso clips are spaced ever 24" or so, so wouldn't provide a continues barrier to fire or gases? I hope that made sense ( i "painted" your picture to explain what I think I'm saying) Sorry for all the second guessing and questioning...I just really want to make sure I'm "getting it".... and I hope when this is done my space is half as cool as what you were able to do!

A little delay....geez fatherhood takes up a lot of time :-) I also just got the 2nd edition of Rod's book so i've been going back through for tasty tidbits of knowledge....something did catch my eye, so I'd take whatever input other folks might have on this issue. Its related to what's already been posted about the front corners of my room. In case you're following along :-) page 221-3 he says "I see a lot of people designing home studios that have splayed walls with a ton of wasted space in areas that could (effectively) be use for low-frequency attenuation" :shock: So according to my design, i guess I would qualify. My reasoning to splay the walls was to create an RFZ at the mixing position while creating enough of an angle in the small tracking room to avoid paralell walls. Would i be better off following Rod's advice and using those corners for bass trapping, while using a mix of room treatments in the tracking room (say, diffusuers and absorption) instead of using a more severe construction technique to avoid paralell walls? If anyone has experience, or an idea that might work better, I'd love to hear before I build something i have to remove! Here's a shot of the front of the room to which i'm referring. here's an updated skp file: http://www.box.net/shared/7e5pypv7aa

If you have the option to use the corners, then do so. You could indent the corners and still leave the angle side walls past the soffits. This way behind the soffits you have enough depth for trapping and still have the angles you want on the side walls in the CR and the iso booth. In previous post on fire stop - the edge at the top of the inner wall is where you put it. A 5/8th inch type x drywall on the joists and on the top portion of the isolation wall with rigid insulation gently inserted and fire caulked will do it.

Thanks for the input...that makes a lot of sense. And in looking back at Rod's elevations in the book, that appears to be exactly what he's done as well....I'll do a redisign in sketchup to reflect that and see what everyone thinks....don't want to give up the opportunity to bass trap if I can help it. Here's another question for anyone.....I'm going to be using a mix of inside out and rightside-in walls at various places in the studio. I know there is a magic number of 4" for the desired air gap in a mass-air-mass construction. Where you use inside-out walls, i would assume you need 4 inches between the interior drywall layers on adjacent walls. When you use standard construction, do you count the depth of each wall (the space between the studs) in the 4" calculation? So for example, you get 3.5" of depth in 2x4 stud construction on each wall. So...you could theoretically have an inside-out wall next to a standard construction wall, put them about an inch apart and still maintin the 4" gap? did that make sense?

This picture shows mixing up your wall panels. I would ask that you place them all on one side or the other rather than mixing them up...it isn't doing anything but making the build more complicated and reduces the shear ability of the wall: download/file.php?id=38541&t=1 Also, the framing of the wall that is just there with nothing attached, I would also modify this. As it is, your fire stopping is ineffective since in the event of a fire it can burn through the wall and jump right into the overhead cavity, never coming close to the fire stop. I would eliminate the wall framed close to the exterior. Then I would run the joists all out in a straight line to with an 1" of the existing exterior perimeter wall. Then sheetrock the underneath side of the joists install a 2X4 plate and THEN install the fire stopping components in this newly created area. Like this:

Everyone, Thanks soooo much for your input. I ended up in the "constrution" forum, and now i'm back to designing again. Alas, I'd rather do it right than not do it at all. I'm reworking my control room based on the 2nd edition of Rod's book...he deals with bass traps in the corners instead of splayed walls (which is where I'm now going, which means sketchup redesign). So in the meantime..... Has anyone used 2 cameras and 2 cheap flatscreens instead of a window between control room/tracking? Not sure what type of electrical interference these might cause, but I'm wondering if its going to be more effective for me. Page 11 of the 2nd edition of Rod's book has (i think) a setup like this...but i can't tell for sure!

check out Lord Tim's build where he used cameras and TV in place of windows.