ALPHA FLOOR Stuido's Build!

Hi guys! Construction has Begun in Sunny San Salvador, EL Salvador hope you like it!!!

Couple more pictures... Starting tomorrow is the Division Framing of the Control Room and the Recording Room!! Any comments are welcome!

Your build seems strange. like you havent decoupled one of the walls.. what are you doing? plans?

Oh they are decoupled... there is more than an inch of space between the Concrete walls and the the inner leaf... But we ought to build to the level of the Concrete Pilars in the middle of the room... The pilar is like 6 inches and plus the concrete wall shouldn't make that much of a problem with sound proofing. Regards, Roberto

Only one inch? Between surfaces? That isn't much. 4 inches is about the minimum air gap that makes any sense. Or are you saying there is a one inch gap between the outer leaf surface and the inner leaf studs? That would give you more than an inch, but still not much since you are using metal framing. It also looks like the ceiling joists are attached to the outer leaf walls, and if that is the case, then it isn't decoupled. - Stuart -

Actually I am wrong it is not an Inch it is a bit more on the side walls I have basically as air space the Lenght of the pillar like 5 inches the wall on the far end might be a bit less... Yeah the ceiling Joints are attached to the outer leafs... Would that be too much of a Problem?? Thanks. Roberto

Ideally your new inner ceiling should rely on your new walls, so you basically build a brand new room like there wasnt an outer one Isolation will be compromised obviously. not the best

Oh Crap... I did manage to cover the whole thing in the roof with Isolation... Ok Basically I am making a copycat of this project: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3743&start=15 Peel Productions Studio... I like the design fairly simple and more than enough for my needs... I do have neighbours on the right side of the Studio but there is a big yard between the concrete wall and their house... On the other side the room connects to my House... All walls are Concrete for the Outer leaf basically as you can see in the pics.... I am not worried so much on insulation or sound proofing on the Control room as on the Recording Room cause I am planning to use Live drums.... I am making the Division starting tomorrow between the control room and teh recording room I have read HOME RECORDING STUDIO BUILD IT LIKE THE PRO'S and I am trying to stick to their design for several things including how the division is going to be made... I am using the same door System as PEEL PRODUCTIONS STUDIO and will make the A/C for my studio as depicted on the book basically a simple box on each side for air circulation covered with insulation and going through the division... Sorry I don't have plans or a sketch I just have everything on paper... Thanks.

Just like the thread you mentioned, he didnt care much either about good isolation, he had neighbours far away I remember. How tall are your current ceilings? Are you using RC channels because of limited headroom? If not, I suggest doing a correct decoupled inner room for your drum room.

Current ceiling is 2.51 mts... What you mean by RC Channels?

Oh Ok got the RC term now! You think I should decouple the hole room?? Just for te ceiling? I am more concerned on the Air Conditioning I am basically copying what it is on Rod's book on the Simple HVAC system I am using a Minisplit I have made a small ilustration to show you guys... Now this will be at the sides and will be a simple Duct with Insulation inside and I also liked this system for my studio setup for extra audio unsulation shown on second pic let me know what you think... So basically it will look something like this inside the Studio between the 2 Rooms! Let me know! Thanks

Yes, you need to build soffits for the ducts, but that has nothing to do with how you build the ceiling If I were you, I would build it right, but a 2.51 ceiling is pretty low to start wth

I know... Unfortunatelly when the ceiling was laid it could not go higher due to Construction restrictions in the House Complex we live in... I wanted it to be 4 meters high but they wouldn't allow me... My neighbours are a bit far and I have nothing above it, would my sound isolation be reduced that much?

Yeah the ceiling Joints are attached to the outer leafs... Would that be too much of a Problem??

That depends on how much isolation you need! But basically you have a direct flanking path from the inner leaf to he outer leaf, so you won't have very good isolation at all. The inner leaf ceiling will transmit airborne vibration to the outer leaf walls, which are part of the house itself... Whether or not that is acceptable, depends on your numbers: How loud will you be, and how loud do you need to be in order to not disturb anyone else?

All walls are Concrete for the Outer leaf

That's good news! Concrete is massive and dense, so that is a point in favor of good isolation. Provided that you don't also have issues with impact noise....

I am planning to use Live drums....

Well, that answers one question! An acoustic drum kit can easily put out 110 to 115 dB(SPL), so that's how loud you are. Now you need to figure out the number for how quite you need to be on the other side of that wall.

I am making the Division starting tomorrow between the control room and teh recording room

Then you have the opportunity to at least do that part right, and make sure that the inner leaf around that second room is totally isolated form the outer leaf, by building it correctly.

... will make the A/C for my studio as depicted on the book basically a simple box on each side for air circulation covered with insulation and going through the division...

If I understand you correctly, you plan to have just one single silencer that is fitted between the two rooms? I can't see how that would work. The silencer box is not meant to be used to pass air between the control room and live room. There should be two different air paths, one for the live room and one for the control room, and each path needs two silencers: one on the incoming fresh air path, and the other on the outgoing stale air path. If you have to move enough air for BOTH rooms through only ONE silencer box, then it will have to be a very large silencer, and the fan will have to move a large volume of air. The air conditioner unit will also be a problem, since it will have to cover BOTH rooms, regardless of whether only one room is in use, or both together. Figuring that out is not going to be easy. It is a much better idea to have two separate systems, one for each room. Also: where are you going to get fresh air from, if you only have one silencer between the rooms? You need to bring in fresh air from outside. And where are you going to exhaust the stale air to? The stale air has to go back to the outside world. Each air path to the outside world must have a silencer on it. So you need at least, and preferably four. You can't just circulate air between the two rooms, with no fresh air inlet or stale air outlet.

You think I should decouple the hole room?? Just for te ceiling?

Yes. If you don't decouple the entire room, then why bother building it in the first place? If your inner leaf walls are coupled to the outer leaf ceiling, and vice-versa, then you actually don't really have a two-leaf MSM wall at all! And it won't isolate very well. You say that you plan to play live drums in there, so it is going to be LOUD. so you do need isolation, it seems.

I wanted it to be 4 meters high but they wouldn't allow me... My neighbours are a bit far and I have nothing above it, would my sound isolation be reduced that much?

The height does not have much affect the isolation of the room: It affects the acoustics of the room. If you want the room to sound good, then more height is better. 4 m would have been great. 2.5 is not that great, but not terrible either. You mean that the finished height will be 2.5 m, right? After the room is completed, with the new ceiling in place? If you mean that the OUTER leaf ceiling is at 2.5 m, then you are going to loose around 15 to 20 cm of that for the inner leaf, so you'll be down to around 2.3 m, maybe even less. - Stuart -

I'll be using 2 Ducts actually for the room One for the Air coming in and the other for the Air coming out!! I am planning to have some fresh Air into the Mix coming from outside using some TUbes to make the mix I hope that helps... I hope the Concrete helps a lot in the equation... As I said I am more concerned about good acoustics and the room sounding good than Isolation that i Don't think is such a big factor cause I don't have a lot of people near to bother. Regarding Height there isn't much I can do cause it is already built but maybe I can make it sound good even if Isolation is not the best can you guys help me out?? Thanks!!

Hey Soundman2020

Soundman2020 wrote:

If I understand you correctly, you plan to have just one single silencer that is fitted between the two rooms? I can't see how that would work. The silencer box is not meant to be used to pass air between the control room and live room. There should be two different air paths, one for the live room and one for the control room, and each path needs two silencers: one on the incoming fresh air path, and the other on the outgoing stale air path. If you have to move enough air for BOTH rooms through only ONE silencer box, then it will have to be a very large silencer, and the fan will have to move a large volume of air. The air conditioner unit will also be a problem, since it will have to cover BOTH rooms, regardless of whether only one room is in use, or both together. Figuring that out is not going to be easy. It is a much better idea to have two separate systems, one for each room. Also: where are you going to get fresh air from, if you only have one silencer between the rooms? You need to bring in fresh air from outside. And where are you going to exhaust the stale air to? The stale air has to go back to the outside world. Each air path to the outside world must have a silencer on it. So you need at least, and preferably four. You can't just circulate air between the two rooms, with no fresh air inlet or stale air outlet.

Could you explaim me a bit more the Silencer Concept and I mean using the 4 silencers as you suggest?? Is there a clear example in the Forum? Here is a Picture of the Division between the Control Room and the Recording room this is just the first wall... The Holes on the top in each side are for the A/C duct we where going to make or the Duct Box... Thanks Roberto

Roberto, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I'm looking at that photo and thinking that you have a major problem there, much bigger than your HVAC silencer issue. You have one continuous "inner leaf" running through both rooms, on all sides! So the rooms are NOT decoupled at all! Your rooms are totally linked on all four sides. There is no separation, no decoupling, and major flanking paths. You basically have no isolation between rooms, and since your inner leaf is coupled to your outer leaf, you also have no isolation to the outside world. Both of your side walls and also your ceiling are one-piece leaves that totally connect both rooms, and your inner-leaf ceiling is also attached to your outer-leaf walls. So it doesn't really matter if you put silencers in at all: the two rooms are absolutely coupled by multiple flanking paths, and there will be very little isolation between them, and to the world. All sounds in your live room will be directly transmitted to the control room and outside, and vice-versa, through all of the walls, floors and ceilings. You might as well not bother building silencers, since they won't do anything for you, as you have very poor isolation everywhere already. You only need silencers if your rooms are properly isolated. Yours are not isolated. There will be abundant sound transmission as it is, flanking everywhere, probably just as loud as what goes through the air ducts (if not louder) so the silencers are basically pointless. I'd suggest that you need to stop building right now, and fix these huge issues that you have before proceeding with your build. If not, then you are just wasting your money, and the studio will be a flop. Sorry to be so harsh, but I'm not much good at breaking news gently. (I'd be a really lousy doctor, from that point of view...) The good news is that you are at a stage where you CAN still fix things, relatively easily. If you stop now, it can be fixed. Carry on, and it will be too late. - Stuart -

Ok Hold on... Cause now I am worried.... Why do I have an inner leaf running on both sides that is not decoupled?? We are talking about the ceiling correct?? That is connecting all 4 walls?? ... But Is there a problem at all with the Division?? That is Totally decoupled isn't it??

From the sequence of photos you posted, you started out with one long room, put up inner-leaf walls down both sides of the long room, one long continuous wall down each side. You also put one single continuous ceiling over both rooms, and that ceiling is attached to the outer leaf walls, as well as the inner leaf walls: So there you have your first issue: The outer leaf is directly attached to the inner leaf via the ceiling structure. There is no isolation there. In order to isolate, the inner leaf ceiling must be attached ONLY to the inner leaf walls, not touching the outer leaf at any point. Not even one single nail: Total separation. Yes, even a single nail or screw that bridges from leaf to leaf will mess up your isolation, but in your case you have not only nails but the entire ceiling structure bridging between the leaves. Sound waves hitting the wall (or ceiling) will cause it to vibrate, and since there is a direct mechanical connection, those vibrations will travel along the connection and cause the wall on the other side to vibrate as well: A vibrating wall is a very good loudspeaker. That's your first problem. Your SECOND problem is with the "one long room" construction. Like I said above, you built a single wall down each side of the long room, and a single ceiling too. Now you are putting a partition ("division") across the middle of the room, from side to side and floor to ceiling. But that partition simply butts up against the walls on each side, and the ceiling above! There is no break in the walls between rooms. It is the SAME wall in both rooms, and the SAME ceiling, with just with a partition touching them. That partition will not do much to stop sound, since the sound will be IN the walls and the ceiling. Sound will flank AROUND your partition, through the walls and ceiling. Sound hitting the wall in one room will cause the entire wall to vibrate, in BOTH rooms, since it is just one single wall. Same for the ceiling. What you SHOULD have done, is to build separate walls for each room, and a separate ceiling for each room. Each wall should end where it attaches to one side of the partition, then there should be an air gap between the two sides of the partition (and each side on its own separate from), then the wall for the other room starts at the other side of the partition. The same for the ceiling. That's the issue. To isolate, you MUST decouple, fully. If you don0t then you have not isolated, and will get sound transmission in, out and between rooms via the flanking paths, which in your case is the entire structure. In order to isolate, you have to build each room independently, totally separate from the other room, and totally separate from the outer leaf that surrounds both rooms. Nothing can touch. NOTHING! Each room should consist of four walls and a ceiling. The walls stand on the floor, and the ceilings rests on the walls, but neither the walls nor the ceilings can touch anything else. This is often referred to as "room within a room" construction. Think of building two totally independent "small rooms within the one big room", but nothing touches. Take a close look at some of the designs on this forum for studios, and you will see how careful people are to ensure that NOTHING touches. No part of the inner leaf can ever touch part of the outer leaf, and no part of the inner leaf for one room can ever touch part of the inner leaf for another room. Everything is separate, independent, decoupled, unconnected, unbridged, etc. If you want to isolate your rooms, then that is the only way to do it for a reasonable cost. There are no short cuts, no magic tricks to get around the laws of physics, no magic products that can help you. I'd really suggest that you need to halt your construction right now, and spend some time learning about these concepts, and re-designing your studio so that it will actually work. The way you are doing it right now is not going to work. - Stuart -

Ok Stuart, The partition or division that is One of the 2 leafs I am building... Basically that is not going to be my only wall on the other side of the room there is going to be a similar wall on the other side with insulation and all basically like described on Rod's book: But then again I have the ceiling problem...

I don't think you are seeing the big picture here. The problem is not the partition: The problem is the side walls and the ceiling that you are going to attach the partition to. With your current construction, those are continuous unbroken walls. You have to break the walls in the middle of the partition. Look at the following two models that I made for you. The first one shows the wrong way to do it, which is what you are doing, according to the photos and diagrams you have posted: The second one shows what you SHOULD be doing:The first method will not work. The second one will. With the first method, nothing is decoupled. With the second one, everything is decoupled, and the rooms are entirely separate. (And I did not even show the ceilings on those two. I can do that as well if you want, to help you understand the issue more completely.) I hope that gives you a better idea of what you are doing wrong, and how to fix it. - Stuart -

Thank you Stuart... I can see my mistake now.. I am basically screwed.. Although I think I can Decouple at this stage the side walls at least and I will have to Lower the ceiling on Both Rooms... I hame made a small illustration on how I might do it basically cut my existing walls at that point to decouple them... The ones in the back is decoupled from the concrete walls, you think this might work? Thanks for the help?

That's the idea, yes. You need to cut both walls (and also the ceiling) at the places you marked in red, within the partition, to decouple the rooms. HOWEVER! It doesn't look like the structure you have there in the partition is going to be able to hold together and support the weight of the ceiling. I'm no expert on framing, but I see some issues in the way that framing has been done that make me think it will not work. xSpace or one of the other construction experts can probably give you a better idea about that than I can. But to me it doesn't look like that structure will be able to brace the side walls properly, nor will it be able to support the weight of the ceiling. For a start, there are no top rails on that partition, no headers above the door and window, no cross bracing, and only two complete studs that run fully from floor to ceiling. I don't see that there is any way that that partition can support the weight of the ceiling and brace the side walls together. I don't even see how it is going to hold the weight of the door! Studio doors are very heavy, and need extra bracing all around the frame. What I see in that photo doesn't even have enough structure to hang a normal door properly, let alone a studio door. And none of that solves your other major problem, which is that your inner-leaf ceiling is directly attached to your outer-leaf walls. Unless you also fix that, I don't see much point in doing anything more. Once again, I'd suggest that you stop construction now, research what an MSM wall really is, figure out how you can fix those major, major problems that you have, re-design the entire studio, and then carry on again. Yes, this does mean that you would have to demolish some of what you have already built, and yes that would be very sad, disappointing, frustrating, and will cost money and time, but frankly the way it is now, if you don't fix those problems then you will waste not only the money you have already spent, but also the money that you will spend form here on, since the studio will not be very good at all. There is nothing you can do now to make the studio work correctly, unless you first go back and fix the underlying problems. Once again, sorry to be giving you so much bad news, but that's just the way it is. Either you can stop, go back, fix things and get a studio that isolates well, or carry on and spend a lot of money on a studio that does not work.

Hi Stuart, Actually this is what I plan to do... Basically will cut where we marked Red and will lower the actual ceiling... I don't think the pictures show it clear but above the ceiling of the inner leaf there are I don't know the english technical term but like Metal made pillars where the top roof is holding so what I plan to do is hang the ceiling from those cause as you say the Side walls won't hold the ceiling but I have asked and those pillars will hold the weight... The Divisions are reinforced with Wood preciselly to hold the weight of the doors. Thanks

You still seem to be not understanding the underlying concepts: If you hang the ceiling rigidly from ANY part of the outer leaf, it is STILL coupled to the outer leaf. Bolts, brackets, solid wire, screws, nails. Anything solid like that is a flanking path, and couples the inner leaf to the outer leaf. There must be NO solid, rigid, mechanical attachments AT ALL, between the inner leaf and the outer leaf. The ONLY way that you could hang your ceiling correctly from the outer leaf, is to buy some proper acoustic ceiling hangers to do it. They have specially designed springs or special rubber pads to correctly suspend the ceiling while decoupling it. You can use those, but you have to buy them: You cannot make them yourself. Even then, you MUST do the calculations to make sure that you use the correct type of acoustic hanger, and that you use the correct number of them, in the correct locations. You CANNOT simply put up a few bolts with wire on them and hope that it will work. It won't. You have to calculate the total weight of your ceiling, get a qualified engineer to tell you where and in how many places that ceiling needs to be supported, then calculate how much weight will be hanging from each point, then purchase the correct hanger for each point that will compress to the correct amount for the amount of weight that it has to support at that point. It is not that easy! You seem to be building this studio without having planed it at all, and without understanding anything about acoustics or studio construction. You have made some big mistakes, and now you don't want to do the right things to fix them, which is to stop, back up, learn, plan, and then start again. Like I said, there are NO MAGIC SOLUTIONS to studio construction. There are physical laws about how sound behaves, and how vibration behaves, and how much stress a structure can handle, and a million other things. You either have to do it right, or you might as well not bother doing it at all, since you will just be wasting money. You aren't the first person I've seen come here to the forum and find out that they made mistakes, and you aren't the first one who doesn't want to fix the mistakes, either. The others that I've seen do that just wanted to finish quickly, without worrying about the laws of physics, and thinking that the laws of physics just won't apply to THEIR building, that the laws only apply to OTHER people. Even though though didn't know what they were doing (which is OK), and didn't want to learn (which is not OK), they still figured they could somehow invoke a magic spell or invent some new physics that would make the problems go away. Guess what: They all failed. They mostly ignore what everyone said here, went on doing whatever they wanted, and when they got to the stage of testing their room to see how good it was, they stopped posting.... I hope you won't be like that. Because people on this forum really WILL do their best to help you, if you are prepared to listen to what they say, and learn, and do things right. But people here generally won't bother helping you at all if you start doing things that defy the laws of acoustics and the laws of physics, and pretend that it will still work. I'm hoping that you'll realize that you cannot fix your studio at this point without going back, taking down some of what you did, and correcting the very basic, very major errors. If you carry on from here without going back to fix it, then I can pretty much guarantee that you won't get any more help from folks here, and I can almost pretty much guarantee that your studio build will be a failure. But it's your decision, and your money, so if you don't mind throwing it away, then carry on... - Stuart -