Need insight on new control room in hollywood CA

hi to all, I started a commercial recording studio in Los angeles California, USA with two other partners about a year ago. We chose a location that was already acoustically treated so we could get to work right away. We recently moved to a new location that was also previously a recording studio with much more space (for even less $), the only problem being that we have to improve upon the existing treatments and floors...etc in order to achieve the sound we had before. Hopefully we made the right decision buy moving to this new spot. My questions are regarding our control room. As you already know bass traps and other treatments are not cheap, so I am posting the dimensions of the room so I can get some pro insight on what is, and isn't necessary as far as adding treatments. I am going to bring an RTA into the room so I can have a visual reference, but I am not exactly a mathematician so I could really use some help with what will already be obvious mathematically. I have included where I was planning to put the desk and speakers in the room, and also marked the mix position.I have included four angles of view (floor, ceiling, and both side views). The walls are drywall with no foam treatment yet, and we just installed new carpet on the floors, and the angled trim around the ceiling seems to be hard wood. There is a dimension missing. the distance to the speakers from mix position is 6' 5'' . We have looked into different pricing for foam treatments, to find out that we just cannot afford to treat every inch of the room. Any insight on where to get a good price would also be appreciated. Where, if somewhere else would you suggest to set up the desk and speakers? Where would you suggest acoustic treatments will be necessary? Any other insight would also be greatly appreciated. Floor side view Window side view Ceiling View Thanks for your time and efforts, Paul -Supercontrol Studios- p.s. After this we are moving to the live room, Where we will be installing hard wood floors. Other than the floors i will be posting on a later day for insight on how to get a very lively room.

Hi Paul, and welcome! First, regarding your room layout, it looks like you have your mix position almost exactly at 50% of the room length. Worst possible spot! You also have your speakers tight up against the walls. Not a good idea. I'd suggest that you move everything forward, and also get your speakers away from the walls, closer to the center of the room. You want to get your ears at roughly 38% of the front-back distance of the room. (That 38% figure is not an "engraved in stone" rule: its just a starting position You might need to move back or forwards a bit. but it does represent the theoretical "best" position for your ears). Your speakers should be angled such that the imaginary axes projected out of the front of each speaker (from the acoustic center of the speaker) intersect at an angle of 60 degrees, about 20 cm behind your head, more or less. That will place the axes aimed right at your ears, right in the middle of the sweet spot. (Theoretically. Your mileage may vary...) You might want to consider soffit-mounting (flush-mounting) your speakers. That helps to tighten up the bass and the stereo image. Regarding the measurement of the room acoustics: don't wast your time with an RTA. It will only give you 1/3 octave resolution, which is way inadequate. There can be half a dozen dips and peaks hidden inside a range of 1/3 octave, and they can average out to flat response, so your real issues will be disguised and hidden by an RTA. Instead, go to Ethan Winer's web site ( http://www.realtraps.com ) and look for the instructions he has on how to test your room with 1 Hz. precision(!). He provides the instructions, and also the files you will need, for free! Just download them and run them. Or download ETF software ( http://www.etfacoustic.com/ ), or EQ Wizard software (their web site seems seems to be offline right now: Google it.) These will give you a very accurate detailed representation of what is going on in your room, which will suggest the best way of treating it.

As you already know bass traps and other treatments are not cheap,

They can be, if you build them yourself! Or at least, they will be cheaper than purchased ones, and just as effective.

... and we just installed new carpet on the floors,

The general recommendation here is to not put carpet on the floor. Keep it live (maybe laminate wood flooring, stained concrete, etc.), and treat the ceiling instead. There are many arguments in favor of this, but one of the most logical is that your ears are accustomed to always being the exact same distance from the floor, wherever you go, your entire life. So your brain is vary accustomed to hearing reflections off the floor. But the distance to the ceiling varies all the time, so your brain is not very accustomed to dealing with reflections from ceilings. So the idea is to keep your ceiling dead, and floor live. And you'll need a cloud at all of the first reflection points on the ceiling anyway, so you might just as well do the entire ceiling. If the floor turns out to be TOO live after you have treated the rest of the room, you can always spread around some throw rugs. It's hard to spread throw-rugs on the ceiling! :)

We have looked into different pricing for foam treatments, to find out that we just cannot afford to treat every inch of the room.

DIY treatment using common building materials like mineral wool and fiberglass are very effective, and much cheaper than buying manufactured products. And you almost certainly do NOT want to treat every inch of the room! That would make it very unpleasant to work in.

Any insight on where to get a good price would also be appreciated.

Talk to Ethan, at Real Traps (see link above). Check out his web site. He posts here regularly too, so he might notice your thread and offer some advice. There are other manufacturers out there too, but research the products carefully before you buy. Not all of them are as honest and upright as Ethan! Watch out for "cheap" treatments fro some places. The usual "Caveat Emptor" rules apply: if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. If the recognized manufacturers sell a certain type of treatment for around US$ 200, but someone claims to have a bigger and better model for only US$ 29.95, then red flags should be popping up all over! I'd also suggest that you download SketchUp from Google, and use that to model your room in 3D. We all use it here, and it makes it easy to interchange files. - Stuart -

' couple 'o penguins....

Thank you Soundman2020 for all the valid information and the time put in to your response, and for answering my questions so fast. I will research the links you gave me, and get to work on implementing those ideas. I will post our updates, and make a sketchup of the room. I would really love to soffit mount my mains. I know there is a lot of info on here about how to diy soffit mount, but is there a specific thread or post here that you would recommend on that topic? Thanks again for the links and the info. :D

supercontrolstudios wrote:

I know there is a lot of info on here about how to diy soffit mount, but is there a specific thread or post here that you would recommend on that topic?

Try these: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6683 viewtopic.php?f=12&t=718 viewtopic.php?f=12&t=766 viewtopic.php?f=12&t=11199 viewtopic.php?f=12&t=11247 viewtopic.php?f=12&t=11230 viewtopic.php?f=12&t=10695 viewforum.php?f=12 There are probably many more. Use the "search" button, and I'm sure you'll find plenty! - Stuart -

I have been researching the threads here on the forum about soffit mounting. I am going to do a sketchup of my plan before we cut anything. I do have a question though before i will be able to sketch a design. Around the ceiling (pictured above) there is a slanted wood trim about 12" wide. Should I tear down all the trim around the room, or just in the soffit cavity, or neither? Is it going to offer an acoustic benefit by keeping it there? Does the speaker need to be centered in the soffit wall? I noticed it will be tough to maintain the 60º angle between them and put them in the center of their soffit walls. Thanks again for the wealth of knowledge available here in this forum, Paul Supercontrol Studios

Around the ceiling (pictured above) there is a slanted wood trim about 12" wide. Should I tear down all the trim around the room, or just in the soffit cavity, or neither?

Hey Paul. I think if that were my room, I'd tear out all that wood trim. 12" is a lot of flat surface to have in corners where bass traps belong.

Is it going to offer an acoustic benefit by keeping it there?

On the contrary, in my opinion it will interfere with your acoustics. I suspect that wood would so all kinds of nasty things to sound, reflecting it around at strange angles. And it's also occupying the best position for bass traps.

Does the speaker need to be centered in the soffit wall?

As close as you can get it within reason, yes. It doesn't really matter if there is just a small difference, but if your speaker is 2 inches away from one edge while being 24 inches away from the other, then something is wrong!

I noticed it will be tough to maintain the 60º angle between them and put them in the center of their soffit walls.

Then increase the angle! You can also go to 90º intersection angle if you really need to. In a small, tight room the geometry sometimes just doesn't add up to allow you to use a 60º angle and also have your speakers and mix position located sensibly. So try 90º, or anything else in between. It will work fine too, the only caveat being that your sweet spot will be "squashed" into an oval shape, but that shouldn't be a problem. - Stuart -

Thanks Stuart! I am not really surprised that the trim would be a problem, so thank you for the reassurance. I am gonna plan on tearing it down. With this new info i can finally get to business on the design. I am gonna post it up here so I could maybe get an ok from some of the pros here before i start the construction Thanks again stuart, Paul Supercontrolstudios

I came across another question in the design process of the soffits. when looking at john's and others designs the airflow is well established, but the pictures of a finished product never seem to have a hole for airflow above the speaker. I can understand why having it open to the room can be a bad idea, but what then about the airflow? How does the final product (below design) incorporate that airflow outlined in the design? (Below).

I think that the top vent is prob in the soffit? you can just slightly see the vent under the console, I 'd assume the top vent is there too.

Couldn't they also be passive monitors, then you wouldn't need the vents

I thought they might be passive too. If thats the case, Can anyone find, or does anyone already have a link to a pic( or post it in the thread) of an active monitor soffit mounting setup that is finished so i could get a peak? I will look for an example too in the meantime. Thanks, paul

Not a photo, but I thought this post from Knightfly was very useful: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7207&p=51511&hilit=soffit+active+speaker+vents#p51511 I know there are photos here somewhere! John has even linked to them a couple of times when this question has come up before, but I can't find them now!!!

I am gonna be putting in the floors in the live room soon. The soffits are coming along really well thanks for everyones input. I need some insight on the best floor for a live room. Is there a difference between laminate and hard wood for the floors of a live room? It would be great news if laminate is just as good. Thanks again for all the advice here. -supercontrol studios Paul

supercontrolstudios wrote:

Is there a difference between laminate and hard wood for the floors of a live room?

Not really. It's all hard surface. Go ahead and laminate ye floor :) Hard floors need soft ceilings, remember. Add ceiling absorbtion (aka clouds)

Paul - the vents you are looking for are probably above the cloth ceiling. check this image of the model of Jamal Records that has active speakers soffit mounted.

Thanks everyone for the insight so far. Thanks john for the direction, and answer to my soffit venting issue. I have a quick, and relatively easy question on wiring.(i know there is a forum specifically for that, but i have made a little bit of a report here and like the feedback I get in this thread. I will post in that forum when I have more complicated questions.) I may be in a position where I have to run more lines in a conduit then I am comfortable with. If I run cables that are carrying a line level signal to panels in different rooms that will then be connected to headphone amplifiers in those perspective rooms, can I also run the mic lines in the same conduit (provided that they are high quality well shielded cables)? thanks, paul-supercontrol studios