King-I-Divine Studios (New Dimensions)In need of Assistance!

inside out wall oustsidein desgin celing( i know its not right...but can i get some guidence from this point)

Rod suggested that i give the brick wall some breathing space so that mold dosnt show up on my insulation

Could you post a link to where Rod made this suggestion? I've not seen this before... a 2x4 wall frame in the AIR space of MAM just to hold insulation 1" off of a brick wall. :? Sounds almost like a 3rd leaf.

the ceiling i still haven't gotten that yet....

You do have Rod's book right? Page 63 to 77. There are many options, some are more decoupled then others.

I decided to make the soffit wall the 2nd leaf wall due to the minimal amount of space i already have...so i guess that means that i need to beef up my 1st leaf in order to compensate correct? or add more air space between the first and 2nd leaf.

Hmm, not sure if adding more mass or air will really help a lot in this way. It will add but how much?

and the same goes for the rear of the room .....what im getting from the desgin is that back wall is similar to the soffit wall so will i treat that the same way i treated the soffit wall? also that back wall should be an inside out wall as well as the sofft wall correct?

Those back corner pieces John put in should be corner absorbers and there a few ways you can make them... there a a few threads in acoustics showing different options for "bass traps". The wold be a cloth front, no drywall. The SAE site and Rod's book also shows what you could do.

also if im correct on all of what i stated earlier (which i doubt) do i still hang the insulation hangers in the gaps of the soffit and the back wall even if the wall is inside out?

If you choose to use tuned hangers you can put them below the speaker soffit and in the corners... hangers and all accoustc go "in the room", not on the other side of drywall, in between leaves.

I have a headache im trying to get this all down b/c im about to lose my contractor...he's been waiting for about 3 months to build and i keep learning new stuff and i dont want 2 lose him...Im getting a great great great deal...

Isn't it a joy we can find so much good (and bad) info on the Internet so that when we take on a DIY project we can all of the possible options and (I speak for myself) obsess over which way to do/build the project. Your not the only one who's gotten headaches, some of us loose sleep too. Would you rather have this done right, take your time to be confident in decision and maybe lose this contractor and get another CON-tractor rather then rush through, maybe save some money and then want to change something that you know longer have a budget for?

AND i was really trying to make out your possible design for my space but no luck i think i need a visual....

OK I'll make a quicky and attach. It's not detailed just showing approximate position of rooms. This would take JOhns last design and FLIP it into the conrenr where I show CR room, The live room would need a wall set of by 24 degees, or even 2 walls off by 12 degrees each. Th other option I thought of was CR in same part of existing space except rotate CR 90 degrees counter clock wise. The door to live room would be on front wall of CR, in between soffits. Marc

this is from an email that i set to rod when he suggested the space between the brickwall.. kingidivine wrote: where would i use the 703 insulation. If i am understanding what your saying correctly your are saying that i can insulate all of my walls with the regular pink insulation.(if that is not correct please let me know).. You don't use 703 - just the fluffy insulation - and you do not want it up against your foundation (very bad from the perspective of humidity and mold - So set your wall frame a minimum of 1" from the inside face of concrete - and run from there - one layer of insulation in the wall cavity - and then gyp-board (GreenGlue) Gyp-board. That gives you a 4 1/2" air spring cavity Hay you know what i think the design you sent me might work...also...is your design to scale to that i can test the measuremnts to make sure i have good dimessions? so in essence your saying to build the outer walls 2 leaf and the inner walls like the soffit and those walls in the back should be built as absorbers....(i hope i got it) If thats the case then im going to see if i can try fitting that in the design u suggeted b/c i might have some more space... and i think the last design you suggested is similar to the studio container.. with the double glass/wood doors in the middle... ill have to see how that would fit....thanx Marc for getting anonther persepctive im to get the best space i can... also i have ameeting with the contractor tommorow just to go over my progress and update him with my suggestions and stuff...so ill check his attitude... thanks again for the replies and im gonna keep looking up info...its 2:30 in the morning do you know where your kids are :D

You don't use 703 - just the fluffy insulation - and you do not want it up against your foundation (very bad from the perspective of humidity and mold - So set your wall frame a minimum of 1" from the inside face of concrete - and run from there - one layer of insulation in the wall cavity - and then gyp-board (GreenGlue) Gyp-board. That gives you a 4 1/2" air spring cavity

What Rod told you to do and the wall detail (x2) that you posted above are two different things. Rod said to build one 2x4 wall. BTW actual dimension of 2x4 is 1 1/2" x 3 1/2", give or take 1/8" :? Rod statement = 1" AIR, 2x4 frame with fluffy fiberglass equalling 3 1/2", then your drywall 5/8" x2.

Hay you know what i think the design you sent me might work...also...is your design to scale to that i can test the measuremnts to make sure i have good dimessions?

My design is kinda basically to scale, I downloaded Johns Sketchup design of you space, did some quick measements, checked his angles and went quick drawing a minimul amount so I could show you what I meant about entire space lay out. John draws a design not a complete plan, it's up to you to figure out how to build it, add in your own amount of isolation (double frame walls and so forth) and build with materials available to you. The best thing to do would be take what John drew for you (and other designs he's done), use sketchup to figure out angles/measurements, find out the demenions of materials you are going to use and then edit/create/bump the design around until it works.

so in essence your saying to build the outer walls 2 leaf and the inner walls like the soffit and those walls in the back should be built as absorbers....(i hope i got it)

Yup that would be the wrong use the words inner and outer as from the reference section Soffit has a hard front = 3 leaf or 2 leaf depending absorber has cloth front or hard if it's panel or slot Sean, you've interputred a few things incorrectly, I've done this too, it takes a while. My advice: Read Rod's book one more time 8) Go through the SAE site again, that's click John Sayers in upper right hand of this page, then click recording manual again. Also soffit details are really well shown in Sketchups of Johns: Small Studio, Paddy2 and also on the SAE site. Marc

Marc i think the most fustrating thing is that you can read it 100 times and still not get it.. i feel so slow :D ...but anyway... i interpeted Rods statement wrong... after looking at both explinations (your and his) i get the wall construction... I understand the diff between the soffit walls and the leafs now i was using inner outer to describe the picture. im messing around with some dimensions now based on the desgin John gave.. might be able to get more space too advice takin on reading all my info again... youve been a great help .... I do appreciate all your time and expierence BAck to the books i go :D

why not take advantage of the entire room? having a fireplace in your control room is probably not the worst thing... :-) you'd probably want to angle on the wall separating the live room from the bathroom. use a glass door betwen the control room and the live room. or a pair of them back to back for more isolation.

I vote for Gulfo's layout :D But I think this is up to Sean and wife to figure out. If I were Sean I would sit down with my wife, with possible layouts in front of me and ask wife "What are we going to use the other space for", followed by "OK if the space is going to be used for ...... then I will build it so that it will exceed your expectations, dear. I can do this and still have a great studio." Other considerations are resale value of home (how much destruction takes place) and if a CR room the size of Guflo's could have a multi purpose in Seans family to still enjoy the fire place. I don't know though for me, once my CR single room studio is up, I want to hide in there, don't want to have wife walking through to do laundry. I even wanna mount a light outside my door I call the F.O. light, don't bother knockin. Marc

OK guys GREAT NEWS... :lol: :D The wife and I met with the contractor today and he chalked out the space of the studio that JOhn desgined for me... I think that was the best thing in the world he could do ....It finally showed my wife that it would not be possible b/c the space is just to small...SO she gave me abig kiss and wish me the best and said that part of the basement was mine to work with.... SO that means i now can fit a 20 x 16 CR and still use part of the laundry room for my booth.... (I ment to tell you guys that the room opposite the laundry room is a bathroom so i cant make that a live room or anything) But im so excited...i finally can get to do what i need to do... now i have to look for another design :x ...im trying to figure out should i keep the fire place in the room or out the room... also that back door has to be accessible to the ouside world. the booth is still gonna be in the laundry room.. i figured if i tried to add it in the big room that i will end up working with the same space as i was before...so Marc, Gullfo if you guys have any ideas...post away i look forward to seeing your ideas.....meanwhile im gonna be doing my lil skecth thing..(im so handicaped with that program..) so again i finally got 20 x 16 space for my CR and my booth will be in the laundry room/... here we go again :) thanx John for this site... and thanx for all the help that has been given!! Sean and (darn wife) :)

great news Sean! (I'm still in negotiations :-)) something like this might work then but the main drawback is the door into the basement... ideally if the door and window could be switched; but it may lead to many more construction issues like sidewalks, etc... to be moved as well... this design could easily be extended to use soffits for the monitors or just additional acoustic treatments in the corners as your budget or needs change.

question?? If i was to build a 2 leaf wall system using my exsisting walls wouldnt the fire place and the window be coverd by the 1studded wall????? here is a pic of exsisting walls again... gulfo i have design thoughts similar to your idea but i cant draw it as well :) good luck on those negotiations :)

maybe you should do some testing to determine what kind of noise levels you have inside and outside during a normal day and on a weekend. this way you can determine what kind of ambient noise levels exist tthat you may have to build isolation for. secondly, if you have something you can use as a basis for your internal control room levels, then check to see what kind of isolation you need to reduce sound levels on the way out... you might not need as much isolation if the ambient and control room levels are relatively low. check with the neighbors also...

alright guys... i worked on this thing all day... i am a handicapp when it comes to sketchup......but this is the design from SAE garage studio 1I hope I made John proud............. i didnt draw in the booth b/c that should be pretty straight forward... I was wondering if my measurements look accurate as far as soffit mounting and anlged walls... I did the best i could for symmetry... if i can find a deal on those glass sliding doors then i will get some..but right now im sticking with the double solid core door design.(i didnt draw it b/c i couldnt :) ) Im going to cover the window and the fireplace now that i have permission! :) well if you guys see a flaw in my design please let me know.....

hey there, The front CR panel between the speakers - it will get reflections off back of desk etc. I suggest bringing it out (with the speakers soffits) another foot or so. Then you can built a slot resonator in there. My 2 cents... :wink:

Sideshow wrote:

hey there, The front CR panel between the speakers - it will get reflections off back of desk etc. I suggest bringing it out (with the speakers soffits) another foot or so. Then you can built a slot resonator in there. My 2 cents... :wink:

very true sideshow.. ill make the adjustment thanx

Sean, OOPS I made a mistake with a previous comment about Hat Channel VS RC. Thank Steve for the correction he pointed out to me in a PM conversation we had. The deal: - RC by itself does improve isolation. - Hat Channel by itself does nothing to improve isolation. However:

In actual fact, hat channel IS used with RSIC clips - the rubber mounted clips do the iso, and standard hat channel (in 2 different widths depending on which clips are used) provides the fastening surface for the wallboard. See this http://www.pac-intl.com/pdf/RSIC-1_EXT0 ... _Guide.pdf for illustration.

Hope you feel better, I'm still partial confused :? Marc

Hay thanks marc I was checking up on that ...thanx for the info!!!!

ok guys got some questions.... according to what ive read about bass traps if your are limited in space you could build an inside out wall and put a cloth front and make your actual wall a trap... the downside to that is that you lose some airspace between the leaves which brings down your stc.( correct me if im wrong) so i was wondering would it make sense just to build the regular wall and treat the wall after with corner and haning bass traps?? the hting about that is it kinda makes the wall have a 3rd leaf effect...so im still gonna lose a lil stc... can anyone tell me which way would be the best... i was gonna stick with ht regular wall as i can give a lil space in the back for traps...anybody got ideas? also when im building the slot resonator wall is that wall and inside out wall? the inside measurments of the studio is 19 x 16x 7.4...considereing i have low celing height should i put a cloud over the mix position? how much space between the celing would i have to give it in order to be effective? here is the design that im using below...any suggestions are welcomed thanks in advance

I just deleted your cross-post in Acoustics, it's a toss-up but I felt that continuity might work better just keeping it here for now - Gotta get back into other things soon (need to find about 100 hours to use between now and 4 days from now, unless my math is flooey I'm already short 4 (even if I don't sleep) First, please FORGET about STC; R&B'ers and Rappers should be SHOT for even USING that term :twisted: - I'm surprised Keith hasn't already jumped you on that one... design your isolation for LOW frequency, and the rest will fall into place. This is called TL, short for Transmission Loss, and is spec'd for each individual frequency band - so Low Frequency Transmission Loss (LF TL for short) is what you're after. If you've not already bought Rod's book, you should (check the stickies in the Construction forum) - he explains how to do basement walls, keep insulation from getting/staying wet, etc - If your basement walls are really brick, and not concrete block, you should have them rendered (basically, buttered with about 1/2" of mortar) before you do anything else (other than remove the existing drywall) - this will help the outer leaf by a few dB, then you put up inner frames NOT touching the block - these need to (first) be framed on the floor, fasten pallet strapping across the backs of the studs every 2 feet, then frames tipped up and drywall added to the face. If you want inside out walls (BTW, the opposite of this would be "normal", not "outside-in", which is exactly the same as "inside-out" :wink: ) then you should plan on your frame being further away from the block walls or you'll end up with less LF TL; not good for your style of music. In fact, if TL is important to you then the only advantage of building inside-out walls is a slight savings in framing materials, at a cost of being a large PITA to get properly sealed (and be SURE) John's soffit design is NOT to be considered one of your leaves in a m-a-m construct, nor was it intended; it's meant to extend the speaker baffle plane in order to force the speaker woofers into 2 pi space, minimising a whole raft of detrimental reflections and making your "sweet spot" actually sweet. As long as you keep any "vents" in those soffits at least 2-3 feet away from your woofers, filling these cavities with wool and venting the bottom will help bass trapping quite a bit. You can, if using active monitors, also build in a "chimney" that runs from the floor, up behind the speakers, and out near the ceiling, so your monitors won't cook their power amps. This won't hurt trapping OR imaging, because the vents would be far enough away from speaker elements not to matter. If you do this, you can also put some holes in the sides of the "chimney" near floor and ceiling to further enhance bass trapping into your absorbent fill behind the soffits. Front faces of soffits should be heavy/solid - 1-1/4" flooring ply with your favorite veneer over the face is a good choice. Check out the speaker forum for more on soffit ideas. Although there will be some fairly small LF TL loss due to the third leaf effect of the soffits, there is growing evidence that this isn't the end of the world (Brian Raavnas' incredible contributions in particular) so, if you just add an extra layer (like 3 instead of 2) of 5/8 gypsum to your inner leaf I doubt you'll notice any degradation - Cloud - of course you need one. Everybody does, unless they're mixing OUTSIDE. IF you're low on ceiling height, at least 2" thick 3 PCF spaced a couple inches off the ceiling. Side absorbers - I'd make 'em optional/movable, do a search here for Moulton (dave) and check out the 2-3 most recent hits for a couple of links to interesting reading. Your splayed side walls (hopefully at least 1 foot in 10) will take care of wall-wall flutter, your "cloud" will do that for floor-ceiling, and rear traps will kill it for front-back. The absorbent John's drawing shows below the speakers is there to help kill reflections off the side of the desk that's toward the speakers, and to keep the first part of your mix environment "dry" - you may also want/need absorbent mounted to this part of the desk itself. Now I REALLY gotta run, HTH... Steve

well guys i started my demolition of my basement to see what i was really working with as far as exsisting structure...and to my amazement i found that the concrete block walls do NOT extend the whole length of my basement wall.. :shock: iv never seen that begore...its like half concrete and half sheet rock.....the contractor says the sheet rock is thicker than average but i was expecting the whole wall to be the same.... :arrow: so what should i do...should i beef up the sheetrock section with more sheetrock to get it to be similar to the brick?( the sheet rock section is the sections with that fiberglass on it which will be removed) :arrow: i have a ceiling question... according to steve i shouldworry about TL and not STC... so when it comes to my ceiling what would be the best thing to do in order to deal with transmission loss....i was thinking about adding sheet rock and green glue to the floor board as rod suggested in his book... but after that point im not to sure what to do...i am low on ceiling height.....it was about 7ft 9' with 1 layer of sheet rock there... any suggestions on the ceiling deal please shoot it my way... below are some pix so you guys can get the visual.... feel free to ask questions

more pix

pix

Sean, You PM'd so: 1. You can definitely start a thread in the construction forum with all these pics. I sure no moderator will mind as you definitely moved into construction phase. 2. CONGRATS on the destruction :twisted: WE love these type of pics on this forum. 3. You've got hollow concrete block walls. They are 15.5" wide, 7.5" high and 7.5" deep. Add in 1/2" mortar all around and with mortar they become 16x8x8. Each block has two cavities about 5" square running up and down. Depending on when your house was built and local codes at that time: For sure every 4' one of those blocks is solid filled concrete, current code (but not what is in my block walls) is that every corner and every last cavity of wall should be filled with concrete. The top two blocks should also be filled with concrete to make a header. Caps would have been placed on 3rd last row of block so last 2 can be filled... OR could be like my house and header was formed and is solid concrete, no block. 4. Reason I gave all the info on block is, your CB walls (CB= Cinder Block or Concrete Block) are a 2 leaf system as is. STC = 48 as is. STC can be increased to 53? if you fill cavities with sand and 55 if you fill with concrete. IF you choose not to fill, build a 2x4 frame wall decoupled from CB wall you'll have to consider in 3 leafs, STC and more important TL from the 3 leafs and build accordingly. BUT what is on the other side of these walls.... earth? insulation and wall covering like stucco or WHAT? My plan is to fill my CB wall. I think Andy Eade has decided not to fill his. It's not the end of the world to not fill, it'll be a PITA to fill. Actually if you do fill I hope you do it before me so I can see what you do :twisted: My current plan to fill is, drill 2" hole with diamond tip hole cutter (fit's into a regular drill) and use a funnel to pour sand in cavity, top off cavity with great stuff foam in a can, and patch with stucco or mortar. Steve called this method insane and slow but I can't think of a better cheaper route. 5. Ain't it fun to realize all the obstacle's you're going to have to work around. Your last two pics show some great obstacle's :twisted: 6.

so what should i do...should i beef up the Sheetrock section with more Sheetrock to get it to be similar to the brick?( the sheet rock section is the sections with that fiberglass on it which will be removed)

Your CB wall should out weight in STC/TL your frame walls, so pick your goal for the frame walls, the CB wall should be more. You can recycle that fiberglass insulation, you'll be better off iso wise to remove paper when putting it back up (3 leaf thing) but if vapor barrier becomes a concern then leave it on and anticipate small 3 leaf from paper. 7.

i have a ceiling question... according to steve i shouldworry about TL and not STC... so when it comes to my ceiling what would be the best thing to do in order to deal with transmission loss....i was thinking about adding sheet rock and green glue to the floor board as rod suggested in his book... but after that point im not to sure what to do...i am low on ceiling height.....it was about 7ft 9' with 1 layer of sheet rock there... any suggestions on the ceiling deal please shoot it my way...

Pic one of the ceiling details from Rods book. This will require staring at your ceiling, measuring everything, thinking about obstacles, air supply, etc... then narrow it down to your best options... stare some more and choose your method of PITA ceiling construction. In reference section in regards to STC, TL, flanking: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1168 BUT those links on that thread are dead, they were re-corrected not long ago when I made Steve aware, but there dead again... However if you search through the http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/ for those docs listed on thread you can find some really good, geeking numbers produced from real test results of TL at many frequencies. There are other spots on the forum and net which give more info. Do a search until your geeked out with info and numbers :twisted: 8. Have you thought about/ found a sump pump. 9. Definitely read through Andy Eades thread in construction forum as I'm guessing there are a few things he's worked out, that you'll eventually question. 10. Keep the pics coming, at this rate your going to pass my progress of my project. Your already leaps and bounds pasts Steve's "not even started project" which we all can't wait to see, especially his plan for 3' of AIR in between leafs... enough room to walk through the MAM. Marc