Newbie needs help with design...

Soundman2020 wrote:

Personally, I think I'd skip the Celotex and just go with another layer of 5/8 drywall: It's quite a bit cheaper(!), and probably just as effective in that sandwich, or nearly so. But that's just me. Others might not agree with that. But that's what I'd do. - Stuart -

I kind of getting the hang of this step by step :D Sorry for all the noob questions but well I'm learning hehe!...

xSpace wrote:

Sullen wrote:

Is this a good method to do the walls? -Sullen

Probably not, if you are using greenglue. The authors that I have read that do use celotex, use it as a form of gasket between the panels, as I understand it. Seems like it would be one or the other but not both. How effective celotex is I could not say. But I couldn't say anything about greenglue either having not used either process. I was wondering about the boat material you presented up topic. Where could I see this stuff on the web. It reads like mass loaded vinyl but I am curious, because it is used in machine rooms, what frequency(s) it is really aimed at. Low and real high? High? Only low? Is the foil facing perforated? These are the questions that come to me after a time change ;) Thanks, Brien

You can see it @ westmarine.com that is the company I used to work for, the only information they have available is the one I pasted down, as for more in depth specifications I owe you that one, this is a private label product so I don't who is in fact the manufacturer of it. -Sullen

but well I'm learning hehe!...

Aren't we all! That's what I love about this forum. You could just sit here browsing the forum for days at a time, and you'll always find numerous nuggets of really cool stuff you never knew! It's paradise for anyone who wants to understand acoustics in the real world! - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

but well I'm learning hehe!...

Aren't we all! That's what I love about this forum. You could just sit here browsing the forum for days at a time, and you'll always find numerous nuggets of really cool stuff you never knew! It's paradise for anyone who wants to understand acoustics in the real world! - Stuart -

True!, one of the many goods things about life, find a place that keeps you busy doing something that you really like and appreciate. -Sullen

Sullen wrote:

Having an 8" concrete outer wall and 4" of air gap, should I do the inner leaf a double or single stud wall?

Single. A double is used to make a 2-leaf construction. you've already got 1 leaf.

I'm planning to use 2X4 studs and looking for an eco-friendly insulation material, what do you guys recommend or should I stick to traditional R-11 or R-19 fiberglass?

If it's gonna have doors and lotsa mass I'd go with 2x6, but that's all up to you. 2x4 will work. eco-friendly, SURE. Go with just regular stuff and yer fine. I once used sheep-wool in between walls, worked like charm. Had a good absorption rate too (nrc of 0,7 at 40mm IIRC)

Also, was reading about some lead sheets for sound isolation, my dad used to work for a industrial supply company that sells this stuff and he's still good friend with the owner of the company, is this stuff good? -Sullen

Lead has MASS and is flexible; yup that's your friend when it comes to isolation. But, it's expensive. Even for daddy's with good friends. But if it's within ye budget; DO IT. ps. did I mention it's expensive yet?

Single. A double is used to make a 2-leaf construction. you've already got 1 leaf.

Thanks!

If it's gonna have doors and lotsa mass I'd go with 2x6, but that's all up to you. 2x4 will work. eco-friendly, SURE. Go with just regular stuff and yer fine. I once used sheep-wool in between walls, worked like charm. Had a good absorption rate too (nrc of 0,7 at 40mm IIRC)

Thanks again, I don't wanna end up breathing particles of fiberglass and messing up my lungs :lol: ...

Lead has MASS and is flexible; yup that's your friend when it comes to isolation. But, it's expensive. Even for daddy's with good friends. But if it's within ye budget; DO IT. ps. did I mention it's expensive yet?

Hahaha! I'll just go with the traditional stuff, was just asking around, but it's expensive indeed... -Sullen

"Thanks again, I don't wanna end up breathing particles of fiberglass and messing up my lungs" Wear a dust mask for the irritants, there is no reason to be concerned with your lungs, it is a none issue.

xSpace wrote:

Wear a dust mask for the irritants, there is no reason to be concerned with your lungs, it is a none issue.

Sometimes in the long run, fiberglass insulation can cause some health issues, I'm just trying to do my best in avoiding this or any other future problem. -Sullen

more on that: viewtopic.php?t=1742

Ro wrote:

more on that: viewtopic.php?t=1742

Thanks Ro! I was checking out the sheep wool insulation material you mentioned above, it looks like it will do a good job but don't know if it's available for my country as we don't really use insulation in our houses for being in a tropical environment and was checking around the site and they don't have a dealer in the US neither but I'm really interested in it, thanks again for telling me about it. -Sullen

Sullen wrote:

xSpace wrote:

Wear a dust mask for the irritants, there is no reason to be concerned with your lungs, it is a none issue.

Sometimes in the long run, fiberglass insulation can cause some health issues, I'm just trying to do my best in avoiding this or any other future problem. -Sullen

Yes sir, I agree. I have also found in my line of work that a hammer and nails can be pretty dangerous as well! And it doesn't even have to be a long run. It can be a short knee wall:)

Okay! I'd already figured out where to put my bathroom, lounge/reception, kitchen, guest room areas. Now moving to the really important space, after going around the designs of the floorplan I'm working on a few times, I'm left with a room of 26' 8" W and 28' 5 3/4" L to put my studio space in. I have a +/- design of how to make it work but would like to see how you guys would use the space if you were in my situation, if it's possible of course. I want to have a good, comfortable control room with space for at least 7 to 8 people at any given time, Iso Booth, Vocal Booth, big Live Room (will function as a rehearsal space for a 6-piece rock band too) and a closet or small storage place. Attach is a .jpg of my design and the .skp file of the space empty (the walls on this model are the outer leaf), I'm planning on doing the "outer leaf" ceiling flat up to 12' high and design the "inner leaf" around that. I'm still stuck on how to do the floor, don't really want to "float" after reading a lot of stuff on that issue but still need to do something about it because of the whole "house below the studio" thing, in the SketchUp file I attached, I designed the model with a Kinetic RIM wood floating floor system but like I said don't really want to "float" anymore, it seems really difficult and expensive hehehe! Thank you very much for all your help so far. -Sullen

Sullen wrote:

I designed the model with a Kinetic RIM wood floating floor system but like I said don't really want to "float" anymore, it seems really difficult and expensive hehehe! Thank you very much for all your help so far. -Sullen

A heavy concrete mass loaded structure, as you have decided, is most likely not in your budget. But the Kinetic floating system is a variation on what is being done with success to stop the transmission from floor to other areas below. There are several variations of this system here at johnlsayers.com, so it may be part of what you can use. That and the ceiling below may have to have rsic and channel to get the isolation you are aiming for. But that wasn't why I was posting :) It is that your pix shows what seems to be multiple framed walls, more then two walls, in different areas. Specifically the back wall(s) of the left and right hand booth view AND control room.

A heavy concrete mass loaded structure, as you have decided, is most likely not in your budget. But the Kinetic floating system is a variation on what is being done with success to stop the transmission from floor to other areas below. There are several variations of this system here at johnlsayers.com, so it may be part of what you can use. That and the ceiling below may have to have rsic and channel to get the isolation you are aiming for.

Thanks for the input on that, that system seems like a good option but expensive indeed, let's see what happen when the time to build finally comes.

But that wasn't why I was posting :) It is that your pix shows what seems to be multiple framed walls, more then two walls, in different areas. Specifically the back wall(s) of the left and right hand booth view AND control room.

Well, I really didn't know if I had to decoupled every wall in the room, so what I did was make a main inner leaf stud wall and put the booths and control room inside of that with separate stud walls, basically rooms within rooms for everything, don't really know if this is overkill, or just plain wrong and how it will affect the acoustic of the room, I just did it thinking on isolation but not as something final, that's why I'm asking for help with this because I'm just a complete mess when it comes to this, thanks to Stuart, Ro and you I have figured out some stuff out but there's a long road ahead still undiscovered for me hehehe! -Sullen

I think it was covered already, but maybe I can hit some of the high notes. A 2 leaf system is what you want to design for optimum isolation. You have an existing exterior wall made of concrete or filled block, as I recall, so this solid barrier is one leaf. Then you have distance/air. The farther you can get from a sound the less intinsity it will have, so this is in part why you need the air space. The other is the decoupling of framing, etc. Now you have to add one more leaf, or mass covered wall panel, to complete your mass/spring/mass. Anywhere you see that you have what can be termed as mass/air/mass/air/mass or higher, is going to cause your isolation to suffer in the low frequency part of the spectrum. This is most important for those interested in low frequency and cantaining this area. Luckily, it's just a drawing and can be corrected with a minimum of effort :)

Yep, Brien is right! You got several 3-leaf issues at the back there. I highlighted them, in red on the image below, so you can see them easier. - Stuart -

I have got to learn that Sketchup app. The time to do it just doesn't fit into my schedule :) A picture sure speaks a thousand words.

xSpace wrote:

I think it was covered already, but maybe I can hit some of the high notes. A 2 leaf system is what you want to design for optimum isolation. You have an existing exterior wall made of concrete or filled block, as I recall, so this solid barrier is one leaf. Then you have distance/air. The farther you can get from a sound the less intinsity it will have, so this is in part why you need the air space. The other is the decoupling of framing, etc. Now you have to add one more leaf, or mass covered wall panel, to complete your mass/spring/mass. Anywhere you see that you have what can be termed as mass/air/mass/air/mass or higher, is going to cause your isolation to suffer in the low frequency part of the spectrum. This is most important for those interested in low frequency and cantaining this area. Luckily, it's just a drawing and can be corrected with a minimum of effort :)

Soundman2020 wrote:

Yep, Brien is right! You got several 3-leaf issues at the back there. I highlighted them, in red on the image below, so you can see them easier. - Stuart -

Yes, you guys are right, it was covered already, my bad. I was thinking this only applied to the stud wall facing the outer leaf and everything else should be decoupled somehow too, but thanks again for the help! -Sullen

Also, your side wall angles in your CR seem to be very shallow. Are you sure those are angled 6 degrees or more? And your speaker soffits seem to be awfully small, if they are soffits. Or are they just bass traps?

Soundman2020 wrote:

Also, your side wall angles in your CR seem to be very shallow. Are you sure those are angled 6 degrees or more? And your speaker soffits seem to be awfully small, if they are soffits. Or are they just bass traps?

My friend, to be really honest, I just did the dimensions of the rooms to scale, everything else was just by plain sight, I was going to fix all that when the final layout was ready but I'm having a hard time figuring that out hehe. This was just to represent the idea of what I had in mind, but everything is subject to change and I'm open to suggestions and ideas on how to make better used of the space I have. -Sullen

I've made some new designs based on others I've seen around, what do you guys think? Which one is more practical an better?

Both will work fine. Personally, I prefer the first one, as it is easier to build, and easier to calculate room ratios and things like that. Unusual angles on intersecting walls might be a pain to get right while you are building. On the other hand, the second one seems to give you better use of space, and a larger live room. But either of those two layouts will work. - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

Both will work fine. Personally, I prefer the first one, as it is easier to build, and easier to calculate room ratios and things like that. Unusual angles on intersecting walls might be a pain to get right while you are building. On the other hand, the second one seems to give you better use of space, and a larger live room. But either of those two layouts will work. - Stuart -

I like the control room in number 1 too but like you said, number two have a better use of space. I'm trying to figure out a way to incorporate CR of number 1 in the space of number 2 and still have a line of sight for every room but it's not quite easy, hehe! -Sullen

Here's another option, it's basically design number 1 shown above rotated 90 degrees to the right, this give me a wider live room, and close to okay booths. -Sullen

Another option I was working on. Here I have more places to store cables, mics, stands, etc...The Live Room is pretty decent in size I think and the booths are okay, the only thing is the lack of sight from CR to booth #2 but I'm liking it, opinions?