Newbie needs help with design...

Started by Sullen on 3 March 2009. 52 replies. In the Library under Fundamentals.

Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 11750.

Hi! I'm new to the forum and I planning to build a recording studio in the second floor of my house. It would be a construction from scratch, my budget is $100,000.00 as we just put a mortgage on the main house, this budget will be used for construction, soundproofing, acoustics, gear and equipment. How this is going to be divided I'm yet to know but construction being the priority right now I'll focused on that first and then move on to whatever else needs attention later. I came up with a design but I'm not satisfied and would like to have it evaluated by the experts of this forum. I live in Puerto Rico and concrete is our most common material for construction using concrete blocks of 6" or 8", I will also attach a pretty accurate floor plan of the second floor with no design in it so whoever wants to recommend me a much better model can design it. This studio will be used for commercial purposes, and would like to have a Kitchen/Lounge, Storage Room, Bathroom and a Guest Room, Control Room, Iso Booth, Vocal Booth and Live Room. I'll be recording mainly Metal, Rock, Jazz and Pop but would like to have a live room big enough to accommodate a String Quartet or a small to medium Symphonic Orchestra, you never know :) . Because I'll be constructing on a second floor I would like to have as less vibration transmitted to the main floor as possible and being in a residential area where the neighbors are very demanding as much soundproofing as possible is a must. I'm still stuck in the design of the ceiling so I'll be needing help with that, in Puerto Rico ceilings are constructed in concrete as well. I hope this information can help for now. -Sullen
External image, not preserved — original: http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u68/SeniumBand/Floorplan.jpg
External image, not preserved — original: http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u68/SeniumBand/Floorplan2.jpg
File not preserved: Second Floor Plan.skp
Hi Sullen, welcome to the wonderful world of learning :D I am by no means an expert, but what I will offer you is a few things I have picked up so far while being here. It seems like you have a great space to work with. What my suggestion would be, is to research here on the forum - MAM or MSM (mass air mass, or mass spring mass) because this will help you greatly in determining isolation between each room, and the floor above. Another thing, is that you want your control room to be completely symmetrical, and you will need a given room ratio to help control modes, and frequencies. There are also plenty of sample plans throughout this forum, so I suggest doing a thorough search on the bold terms I highlighted, and check out the stickies in the beginning of each individual forum. Trust me, this will help you through the process. -Ian
NativeLuv17 wrote:
Hi Sullen, welcome to the wonderful world of learning :D I am by no means an expert, but what I will offer you is a few things I have picked up so far while being here. It seems like you have a great space to work with. What my suggestion would be, is to research here on the forum - MAM or MSM (mass air mass, or mass spring mass) because this will help you greatly in determining isolation between each room, and the floor above. Another thing, is that you want your control room to be completely symmetrical, and you will need a given room ratio to help control modes, and frequencies. There are also plenty of sample plans throughout this forum, so I suggest doing a thorough search on the bold terms I highlighted, and check out the stickies in the beginning of each individual forum. Trust me, this will help you through the process. -Ian
Hehe! my bad, by expert I really mean more experienced individuals than me, 'cause the truth is this whole ordeal is new to me and there's a lot I need to learn. I've been interested in doing this for quite a while but now is finally the time to put it in action, I'll take a look at the sticky threads and do some research on the terms you highlighted, thanks for your time it's really appreciated. -Sullen
If I had 100,000.00 and I wanted to make the best from my money, I would put the build on the ground level. The money you are going to put into constructing this build off the ground will be far better spent, especially new construction, by placing it on the cold damped ground. Elevating an audio related structure is asking for a multitude of issues that would not have to be dealt with if it were placed on the ground. Welcome to here and as always, good luck! Brien
xSpace wrote:
If I had 100,000.00 and I wanted to make the best from my money, I would put the build on the ground level. The money you are going to put into constructing this build off the ground will be far better spent, especially new construction, by placing it on the cold damped ground. Elevating an audio related structure is asking for a multitude of issues that would not have to be dealt with if it were placed on the ground. Welcome to here and as always, good luck! Brien
I understand what you are saying and you are absolutely right, but this space is mine and it's there, so I can focused on investing the money in construction and other matters, looking for a new place means buying it, and therefor less money for construction and so on. The main floor is the house and I don't have a backyard because where I live houses are really close one to another, so sadly my only option is the second floor of my house that doesn't have any structure build on it. -Sullen
"It would be a construction from scratch" Oops, my bad. Having an existing concrete structure/floor helps you a lot. This can go a long way, at least farther then wood framed, with isolation between floors. If you do not already have it, I would find out what the specs are on this structure. Live loads and dead loads of your wall/floor configuration. This is going to be helpful for when you begin making a design. You can only build to a specific load limit and heavy walls and ceilings create tonnes of load. Hope that helps, Brien
xSpace wrote:
"It would be a construction from scratch" Oops, my bad. Having an existing concrete structure/floor helps you a lot. This can go a long way, at least farther then wood framed, with isolation between floors. If you do not already have it, I would find out what the specs are on this structure. Live loads and dead loads of your wall/floor configuration. This is going to be helpful for when you begin making a design. You can only build to a specific load limit and heavy walls and ceilings create tonnes of load. Hope that helps, Brien
Sorry for that :) , from scratch I meant that there is no actual structure built in the second floor of the house. I was thinking on that idea you mention, raising the floor at least 1' from the concrete floor make a wood frame with insulation material in it and the hardwood floor on top, it this will work to stop sound vibrations transferring to the house below? And what would be the best method for the room within a room case?...I'll also buy a copy of Rod's book hehe! :D -Sullen
Hi Sullen, and welcome!
raising the floor at least 1' from the concrete floor make a wood frame with insulation material in it and the hardwood floor on top, it this will work to stop sound vibrations transferring to the house below?
Nope! Probably not. That would qualify as a "floated floor", and be very hard to get right. I suggest you read this: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8173 If you want to float your floor, it is possible, but it requires mountains of careful calculations and LOTS of mass to get it right. "Lots" as in several tons. And if you get it wrong, then you make things WORSE than they would have been otherwise, so you waste a lot of time, effort, materials and money, for worse isolation. It is really hard to get it right.... Probably your best bet is to isolate that floor from below: Whatever ceilings you are planning to use underneath it for the house, forget it and install decoupled ceilings. Maybe do something like RSIC clips with hat channel and a couple of layers of drywall underneath, or metal joists on hangers with multilayer drywall, or something similar. Since you will be shaking the entire shell of the entire house, you might want to consider decoupled walls down below, too: "room in a room" works both ways. You can also use the same concept on a smaller scale for the rooms in the living area. That would help to eliminate the need for a floated floor above, in the studio. Fortunately, you have the budget to do that!
And what would be the best method for the room within a room case?...
Mass-Air-Mass. Basically, you have two totally separate leaves to that make up your wall: the "outer" leaf which faces the real wold and has to be very massive, and the inner leaf, which is the inner surface of the room itself, and has to be very massive. In between these two massive "leaves" of this wall, you need a large air gap (several inches) filled with insulation (fiberglass or rock wool are excellent). So you have Mass, then Air, then Mass. MAM. More correctly called "MSM", for "Mass-Spring-Mass", which is the principle of Physics on which it is based. You need totally separate studs for your inner-leaf walls, 24" OC framing (wood or metal. Metal is slightly better, but wood also works great), two or three (or more?) layers of drywall on the inner side of the studs ONLY (you do not want to build a three-leaf wall!). The inner leaf ceiling rests on the inner leaf walls and does not touch the outer leaf at all (neither walls nor roof). There is no mechanical connection AT ALL between the leaves. They are totally decoupled, except for the fact that in your case they have to rest on the same floor (you have no choice there, as you will be on the second floor, unless you correctly float your floor). Everything must be sealed absolutely hermetically airtight. Double doors (back to back) between rooms (or Rod's "superdoor"). Don't forget to consider HVAC, electrical and cabling now. It's too late to do that later. All glass is thick laminate glass. All doors are thick heavy solid core doors. Everything is very massive, very heavy. So, seeing that you will be piling a huge amount of mass on top of the second floor, your very first act should be to hire a structural engineer to inspect your current structure, especially the floor, and see if it can take anything like the enormous additional load you are wanting to place on it. We are talking many tons of additional load. Can the existing walls and floor handle that? Probably not. You will need to get the engineer to tell you how to reinforce the existing structure, so that it can support the load.
I'll also buy a copy of Rod's book hehe!
That is the very, very best thing you can do! Also get the "Master Handbook of Acoustics", by Alton Everest. It is the "Bible" of acoustics. Have you considered the other option? Build the house upstairs, on the second floor, and the studio down below? It would be an awful lot easier, and less expensive! - Stuart -
Soundman2020 wrote:
Hi Sullen, and welcome!
raising the floor at least 1' from the concrete floor make a wood frame with insulation material in it and the hardwood floor on top, it this will work to stop sound vibrations transferring to the house below?
Nope! Probably not. That would qualify as a "floated floor", and be very hard to get right. I suggest you read this: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8173 If you want to float your floor, it is possible, but it requires careful calculations and LOTS of mass to get it right. "Lots" as in several tons. Probably your best bet is to isolate that floor from below: Whatever ceilings you are planning to use underneath it for the house, forget it and install decoupled ceilings. Maybe RSIC clips with hat channel and a couple of layers of drywall underneath. Since you will be shaking the shell of the entire house, you might want to consider decoupled walls down below, too: "room in a room" works both ways. You can also use the same concept on a smaller scale for the rooms in the living area. That would help to eliminate the need for a floated floor above, in the studio. Fortunately, you have the budget to do that!
And what would be the best method for the room within a room case?...
Mass-Air-Mass. You have two totally separate walls, the "outer" leaf which faces the real wold and has to be very massive, and the inner leaf, which is the room itself, and has to be very massive. In between the two "leaves" of this wall, you need a large air gap (several inches) filled with insulation (fiberglass or rock wool are excellent). You need totally separate studs for your inner-leaf walls, 24" OC framing (wood or metal. Metal is slightly better, but wood also works great), two or three (or more?) layers of drywall on one side of the studs ONLY (you do not want to build a three-leaf wall!). The inner leaf ceiling rests on the inner leaf walls and does not touch the outer leaf at all (neither walls nor roof). There is no mechanical connection AT ALL between the leaves. They are totally decoupled, except for the fact that in your case they have to rest on the same floor (you have no choice there, on the second floor, unless you correctly float your floor). Everything sealed absolutely hermetically airtight. Double doors (back to back) between rooms (or Rod's "superdoor"). Don't forget to consider HVAC, electrical and cabling now. It's too late to do that later. So, seeing that you will be piling a huge amount of mass on top of the second floor, your very first act should be to hire a structural engineer to inspect your current structure, and see if it can take anything like the enormous additional load you are wanting to place on it.
I'll also buy a copy of Rod's book hehe!
That is the very, very best thing you can do! Also get the "Master Handbook of Acoustics", by Alton Everest. It is the "Bible" of acoustics. Have you considered the other option? Build the house upstairs, on the second floor, and the studio down below? It would be an awful lot easier, and less expensive! - Stuart -
Thank you a lot for all your information. About building the studio downstairs, but the house's already been build, I would be dealing with a solid concrete structure and walls, that involves breaking here and there and is kind of messy I think, I also do not live alone so it would be a process that will put my family out of the house for several weeks, If I build upstairs there's no problem because like I said before it's just a big empty space. The way I'll be building upstairs is using 8" hollow concrete blocks for the outside walls and then the other room inside (still don't know if wood or metal framing, wich one would be better?), was thinking on 10' high ceilings but like I said I don't know anything about the best way to design a good or "perfect" ceiling for a studio (height and shape speaking), also the house when it was constructed it was done having in mind that someday another house was going to be build above it, that's why the stairs are already constructed, but it will be evaluated by an engineer first. -Sullen
Sullen wrote:
xSpace wrote:
This can go a long way, at least farther then wood framed,
Sullen wrote:
... I was thinking on that idea you mention, raising the floor at least 1' from the concrete floor make a wood frame with insulation material in it and the hardwood floor on top,
I didn't mention it at all. The reference was to a concrete floor being better overall then a wooden based framed floor, as part of the existing structure. Had you come here before building the house, dead set on having the music rooms upstairs anyway, I would have at least mentioned building your >Home< environment as room-in-a-room. But you didn't so I can't :)
xSpace wrote:
I didn't mention it at all. The reference was to a concrete floor being better overall then a wooden based framed floor, as part of the existing structure. Had you come here before building the house, dead set on having the music rooms upstairs anyway, I would have at least mentioned building your >Home< environment as room-in-a-room. But you didn't so I can't :)
My bad, I misunderstood what you were trying to say. I forgot to mention that this house is about 30 something years old, and the stairs were build long ago too because a second house was going to be build but it never happened, what we did was put a new mortgage in the house to build upstairs but instead of another house now it's a studio or at least trying to... -Sullen
Just bought Rod's book waiting for it to arrive :D
Here's a new design I've been working on, it's just framing and room divisions, tell me what you think and if it's close to the right thing to do.
Image not preserved: Floor Plan Design.jpg
Please resize your images to 700px per the forum declarations. John Sayers: "You will NOT be assisted on this site if you: 1. Don't fill in the Location section in your profile - this is an international site and we need to know what country you are in. 2. Put up a post saying "I have a room X feet x Y feet - what should I do?" 3. Put up a plan that has no dimensions and does not point out pertinent facts like there's a pole in the middle of the room and the right hand wall is all glass. 4. Post pictures greater than 700px wide. "
xSpace wrote:
Please resize your images to 700px per the forum declarations. John Sayers: "You will NOT be assisted on this site if you: 1. Don't fill in the Location section in your profile - this is an international site and we need to know what country you are in. 2. Put up a post saying "I have a room X feet x Y feet - what should I do?" 3. Put up a plan that has no dimensions and does not point out pertinent facts like there's a pole in the middle of the room and the right hand wall is all glass. 4. Post pictures greater than 700px wide. "
Sorry, I'll fix it, thank you. -Sullen
I used to sell this material back when I was a salesperson in a boat products retail store that it's used to reduce the noise generated by inboard engines in boats and yachts and those things are really "LOUD", I have been in boats that have this material installed as it's the standard thing to use and it does a hell of a job reducing huge db's with just 1/2" thick sheets across the engine room, it also comes in 1" thick sheets. I wonder as I would still be able to get this at a good price with discounts from friends that are still working there if it will work for studio isolation? Here are the specs: This flexible composite combines the sound-absorbing properties of open-cell polyurethane foam and the noise barrier capabilities of high-density PVC vinyl sheeting. The 3/32" flexible vinyl sheet is fused between two layers of foam—an exterior (“decoupler”) layer and an interior (“absorber”) layer. The exterior layer is then covered with a thin film (2.5 mil) of Mylar, reinforced with elastomer-coated fiberglass, for surface heat protection and enhanced sound absorption. * The overall effect is a dramatic noise reduction when compared with single-layer foam barriers * Material is fire-retardant (not fireproof) up to 225°F * Available in two overall thicknesses * Decoupler thickness is 1/4" * Absorber thickness is 1/4" on the 1/2" kit, 3/4" on the 1" kit * Peel and stick backing for easy installation * When using overhead, nail hangers should be used
Image not preserved: Sound Barrier.jpg
thrash it. It doesn't have MASS so it doesn't isolate much. This open-cell material is to absorb waves so it's more useable for acoustics. Tho the silver screen prevents waves (at mid and high frq) to penetrate. It also isn't thick enough to act as a bass absorber... IMHO; thrash it.
Ro wrote:
thrash it. It doesn't have MASS so it doesn't isolate much. This open-cell material is to absorb waves so it's more useable for acoustics. Tho the silver screen prevents waves (at mid and high frq) to penetrate. It also isn't thick enough to act as a bass absorber... IMHO; thrash it.
Thanks!! I'll keep scouting around. -Sullen
Having an 8" concrete outer wall and 4" of air gap, should I do the inner leaf a double or single stud wall? I'm planning to use 2X4 studs and looking for an eco-friendly insulation material, what do you guys recommend or should I stick to traditional R-11 or R-19 fiberglass? Also, was reading about some lead sheets for sound isolation, my dad used to work for a industrial supply company that sells this stuff and he's still good friend with the owner of the company, is this stuff good? -Sullen
Having an 8" concrete outer wall and 4" of air gap, should I do the inner leaf a double or single stud wall?
If I understand you correctly, you would want your concrete outer wall to be part of your leaf, so a double stud wall inside of this would create a triple leaf. What you want, would be Concrete wall (M), insulation, air space, insulation (S), Drywall (M)
NativeLuv17 wrote:
Having an 8" concrete outer wall and 4" of air gap, should I do the inner leaf a double or single stud wall?
If I understand you correctly, you would want your concrete outer wall to be part of your leaf, so a double stud wall inside of this would create a triple leaf. What you want, would be Concrete wall (M), insulation, air space, insulation (S), Drywall (M)
That's why I was asking, I got confused looking at recommendations at double stud walls being better for sound isolation but I wasn't sure if this applied to my case. So the anatomy of the MAM-MSM in my case would be: Concrete wall, air space, Wood (or Metal) Frame with insulation material in it, Resilient Channel and double or triple layer of Drywall with Green Glue? -Sullen
... Wood (or Metal) Frame with insulation material in it, Resilient Channel and double or triple layer of Drywall with Green Glue?
You can drop the resilient channel. It won't be doing anything useful for you. The purpose of RC is to decouple one side of a wall from the other, but you are already doing that, since you have a separate stud wall. RC is really meant for single stud walls with drywall on both sides. It decouples the drywall on one side from the frame. So save yourself some money. Your wall should be: concrete - air gap - studs with insulation - drywall (2 or 3 layers, with GG). ( You could also put even more insulation in the air gap too, using the money you saved on RC maybe! That would be more useful than RC. ) - Stuart -
Is this a good method to do the walls? -Sullen
Image not preserved: Isolated Wall.jpg
Personally, I think I'd skip the Celotex and just go with another layer of 5/8 drywall: It's quite a bit cheaper(!), and probably just as effective in that sandwich, or nearly so. But that's just me. Others might not agree with that. But that's what I'd do. - Stuart -
Sullen wrote:
Is this a good method to do the walls? -Sullen
Probably not, if you are using greenglue. The authors that I have read that do use celotex, use it as a form of gasket between the panels, as I understand it. Seems like it would be one or the other but not both. How effective celotex is I could not say. But I couldn't say anything about greenglue either having not used either process. I was wondering about the boat material you presented up topic. Where could I see this stuff on the web. It reads like mass loaded vinyl but I am curious, because it is used in machine rooms, what frequency(s) it is really aimed at. Low and real high? High? Only low? Is the foil facing perforated? These are the questions that come to me after a time change ;) Thanks, Brien