Treatment to studioize an existing room?

Wow!! What a forum! I am very happy to find you all. Just as a preface, I am an experienced musician, but a beginner when it comes to studios and recording. I am also a newbie to this forum, so if this is posted in the wrong place or if more/different info is needed please let me know. I read the info about posting requirements, so hopefully this will fly. I am in the process of creating a music room/studio of my own. The room is already built, so my purpose here is not to learn how to build a room, but how to treat the room and work with what I already have. (I wish I had found this site prior to building the space… moot point). I want the room to remain open and multi purpose, not subdivided into two rooms to gain a control room as I will not have a recording engineer but will be recording myself, playing both roles of both musician and sound man. The recording hardware will be simply a PC with Sonar, and interface. I may add a small mixing board later just to have the option for maintaining presets for recording numerous instruments at any whim, but the 8 interface inputs seem plenty for now. My concerns are for good room response to record at various stations around the room. I will have a drum kit set up, plus electric guitar, electric bass, plus two or three more adaptable stations for various instruments as need arises. Just about anything and everything except piano will be recorded here (No way to get a piano into the room). I am eager to hear whatever advice can be offered regarding layout based on room dimensions/shape, acoustics, trapping and diffusion, and the possibility of decoupling the drums from the floor. (The floor is pretty live). Info about the place in no particular order: Annoying neighbors is not an issue whatsoever. Our nearest neighbor’s house is over 300 yards away. The room is relatively quiet except in stormy, windy or rainy conditions. I am sure however it is not quiet like a purpose built room. The space is one room, exterior floor dimensions of 16’ x 24’. It has a peaked ceiling and clerestory with exposed roof trusses. It is a second story room with an open stairway coming up on one end of the room. The floor is joisted with post and beam support below. Sub floor is ¾” OSB and surface is T/G bamboo prefinished flooring nominal 5/8” thick Overall construction of the room: 2x8 Stud framed walls, 24”oc with 2” EPS foam plus R19 fiberglass insulation in cavities. Exterior OSB sheathing. Will finish exterior with rough cut wood siding next summer. Interior walls ½” sheetrock. North and West walls have Pine slab paneling from a local sawmill over drywall. (see photos). Peaked ceiling is rough cut pine, clerestory is sheetrocked. West wall attached to existing building. There are lots of East facing windows with beautiful inspiring views. Here are photos of the space today: East wall South wall West wall North wall Trusses/clerestory: I can't find my working drawings, so here are a couple quick sketches of floor plan and elevation (Drawings not to scale, but dimensions included. Roof pitch 6/12): Floor plan: East/West elevation showing clerestory: Specific problems noticed so far: -The floor is pretty live and I have noise from foot (pedal) movement playing drums. I already moved the kit to be more directly above a post below instead of just over joists. However, more isolation is needed. I though maybe adding a couple layer of carpet padding under a layer or two of OSB with carpet on top may help... yes/no? -There is a bass boom in the room. I am not sure what frequency as I do not have equipment or know how to determine. Other questions: - I am generally concerned about sound reflection from the east windows. What strategy can be employed here to limit sound problems yet retain the view? -What is general strategy to add absorbtion/diffusion for this room? -What general layout is advised, especially for mixing station? Oh yeah, budget... I am monetarily challenged and a total do it your selfer. This project has already taken me two years paying as I go. Thanks in advance.

Hi Mountainhick. Took me a few minutes but I found something that may be of some use to you fro decoupling your drums: http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/9493 ... er2bp4.jpg It is linked from a post by the Author, Glenn (aka gullfo) here: Help with acoustics of new home studio Hope that is of some use and welcome, Brien EDIT: fro=for

-What is general strategy to add absorbtion/diffusion for this room?

Not sure about diffusion, but absorption: Start with bass traps. Lots of them. In the corners. Big ones. As Ethan always says: you cannot possibly have too much bass trapping in a small room. More is better.

xSpace wrote:

Hi Mountainhick. Took me a few minutes but I found something that may be of some use to you fro decoupling your drums: http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/9493 ... er2bp4.jpg It is linked from a post by the Author, Glenn (aka gullfo) here: Help with acoustics of new home studio Hope that is of some use and welcome, Brien EDIT: fro=for

Thank you. I started a new thread with questions about drum platforms and this design:

Soundman2020 wrote:

-What is general strategy to add absorbtion/diffusion for this room?

Not sure about diffusion, but absorption: Start with bass traps. Lots of them. In the corners. Big ones. As Ethan always says: you cannot possibly have too much bass trapping in a small room. More is better.

Thanks. Lots of info on the forum about this. My one question regarding bass traps: Are they as effective at side and ceiling corners as floor corners? I would hate to lose floor space at the edges of the room.

mountainhick wrote:

Thank you. I started a new thread with questions about drum platforms and this design:

It can all be handled in this one thread...easier to keep up with all the information:) The design suggested was not a guess. It is offered by a World class designer/acoustician, Gullfo. It is the same type of design suggested by another World class author; Rod Gervais; viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3771&start=30 So anything you do to modify with pucks, plugs or the notions from someone lesser educated in this area, is just being hard headed :)

xSpace wrote:

mountainhick wrote:

Thank you. I started a new thread with questions about drum platforms and this design:

It can all be handled in this one thread...easier to keep up with all the information:)

Sorry. Not used to the forum conventions here yet.

My one question regarding bass traps: Are they as effective at side and ceiling corners as floor corners? I would hate to lose floor space at the edges of the room.

Yup. Bass fills the room, and the nodes all meet in the room corners. It doesn't matter too much which corner. Any corner works. Theoretically, you could put bass trapping anywhere, even hanging out in the middle of the room, but the reason why you want to concentrate it against walls and in corners is because you get much more "bang for your buck" so to speak in the corners, because all the nodes meet there. If I recall the numbers correctly: Trapping up close to a wall will gain you 6 dB of absorption. Trapping in the corner between two walls gains you 12 dB, and trapping in the "tri-corner" where three walls meet gains you 18 dB. So obviously those "tri-corners" are an excellent place to trap. So you do want to use your corners as much as possible for trapping. The obvious candidates are the wall-wall corners at the front and rear of the room, and those usually get treated first simply because that's what you think of first one someone says "put it in the corner", but there are plenty of other corners. You might want to avoid treating the floor-wall corners, simply because someone might step on your trap! But if you can keep people away from it, then it's as good a corner as any other.

xSpace wrote:

mountainhick wrote:

Thank you. I started a new thread with questions about drum platforms and this design:

It can all be handled in this one thread...easier to keep up with all the information:) The design suggested was not a guess. It is offered by a World class designer/acoustician, Gullfo. It is the same type of design suggested by another World class author; Rod Gervais; viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3771&start=30 So anything you do to modify with pucks, plugs or the notions from someone lesser educated in this area, is just being hard headed :)

Thanks for that link. I did not previously find that thread in my searches. Can I ask a favor? It left me a bit confused to return to this post today to find it updated with new information after I had replied to your original post. I didn't even know it had changed until today, almost a week later. Would it be possible in the future for you to add a new post to the thread when adding pertinent new information? And in terms of hard headedness, as previously stated, I am a newbie in the world of studio design. I am not trying to be hard headed, I am trying to learn. My questions are to gain understanding, not to try to challenge the expertise of World class designers and authors. In the case of Rod Gervais, I now have and am reading and learning from his book, as I am spending time reading and learning from this forum.

It wasn't pertinent, or I would have made a new post as your good sense also suggests to do. The edit I did is marked clearly in the post: -------------------- EDIT: fro=for --------------------- Same thing with the other one...mostly editing will be the only thing that gets me to, well, edit;) We're all after the same thing, give or take a few decibels :)

Hmm, I must be getting senile.

OK, having read/studied a bunch brings up many questions: -My first thought in terms of the functionality of the space was to keep the drum kit where it is and set up the console and monitors along the south wall (the green wall in the photos, and the wall on the right side of the East/west elevation drawing. In terms of it's location in the larger overall picture of the geometry of the room, the clerestory is on the south side of the roof structure for light and solar gain since this is the northern hemisphere). Question #1: Is there any reason that I should reverse this north/south orientation based on this overall room geometry or other functional issues, i.e. put the drums on the south end of the room, and console facing north in front of the stairs? Regarding bass trapping, and thinking in terms of best bang for the buck, in addition to the specific questions below I am wondering which of the following placements to prioritize. I already know that floor to ceiling vertical corner placements are good because of the higher reduction in three way corners, but from there: Question #2: I reckon I will build vertical traps in three of the four vertical room corners, but the fourth corner is the landing of the stairs and infringing on this space is not practical and will not meet code. Any thoughts about potential consequences not having traps in this fourth corner? Question #3: I could possibly put a sort of partial corner trap in the stairway corner above the 80" headroom/doorway height mark in this stairway corner, and continue it up above the horizontal truss ties. Would this be good placement and worth doing? Question #4: If you look at photos of the south and north walls, the 6/12 ceiling pitch starts rising at the top of these walls. Though these angles are greater than 90 degrees, would the spaces between the trusses in these corners be good bass trapping locations? I could easily stuff these areas all the way across the top of each wall. Question #5: I am wondering about the geometry of the peaked roof and clerestory. Trying to calculate resonances of the peak and asymmetrical clerestory is well beyond my engineering/math skills. Are there any obvious good corners in this space for bass trapping? The possibilities I see are the 90 degree corners between 6/12 ceiling and East and West Walls, and in the East and West three way corners of the Clerestory. Trapping across the length of the acutely angled peak of the clerestory won't work because the windows are within inches of the peak and I do not want to block the sunshine. Questions about possible bass/ general broadband trapping: Question #6: Would clouds placed on top of the horizontal ties of the trusses act at all as bass traps or just broadband traps? Question #7: It seems to me that clouds above the mixing console and above the drum kit would both be good... yes/no? Question #8 would cloud placement on top of the horizontal truss ties be OK, or would hanging them below be better? It would be a heck of a lot easier putting them on top. Question #9a: Would a trap/partition from floor to ceiling in front of the stairway railing behind the drum kit be a good idea or would that much absorbent material be too much for mid/high frequencies? Question #9b: Would a slatted surface facing the room space be a better idea? Question #10 would the priority for the design of question #9's trap change if the console was facing this vs it being behind the drumkit? Question #11 Is there any other info I need to provide to make answering these questions easier and/or to qualify for responses from the World class authors and experts? Thank you. OK, enough for now. I have other thoughts/questions regarding movable panels/gobos and potentially window panel inserts to set up a better critical listening/mixing environment, but I'll post about this later.

mountainhick wrote:

OK, having read/studied a bunch brings up many questions:

Hai there, you've got a great space over there! I'dd try to keep as much of the room visible if that were my space. The wood's beautiful. Having said that; here's some response on ye Q-list:

-My first thought in terms of the functionality of the space was to keep the drum kit where it is and set up the console and monitors along the south wall (the green wall in the photos, and the wall on the right side of the East/west elevation drawing. In terms of it's location in the larger overall picture of the geometry of the room, the clerestory is on the south side of the roof structure for light and solar gain since this is the northern hemisphere). Question #1: Is there any reason that I should reverse this north/south orientation based on this overall room geometry or other functional issues, i.e. put the drums on the south end of the room, and console facing north in front of the stairs?

Consider your monitors. They will need some (much) absorption on reflection points. Prolly a good start is to put them on the opposite wall (or corner) from where you can make a good absorbing wall (or corner).

Regarding bass trapping, and thinking in terms of best bang for the buck, in addition to the specific questions below I am wondering which of the following placements to prioritize. I already know that floor to ceiling vertical corner placements are good because of the higher reduction in three way corners, but from there: Question #2: I reckon I will build vertical traps in three of the four vertical room corners, but the fourth corner is the landing of the stairs and infringing on this space is not practical and will not meet code. Any thoughts about potential consequences not having traps in this fourth corner?

No problem if you can't fill all corners (and there's plenty of'm in you room). If possible fill'm all, if not. too bad. Don't worry about it too much.

Question #3: I could possibly put a sort of partial corner trap in the stairway corner above the 80" headroom/doorway height mark in this stairway corner, and continue it up above the horizontal truss ties. Would this be good placement and worth doing?

Sure, the more the better. Even if it's just a little piece of corner that's possible to fill with wool.

Question #4: If you look at photos of the south and north walls, the 6/12 ceiling pitch starts rising at the top of these walls. Though these angles are greater than 90 degrees, would the spaces between the trusses in these corners be good bass trapping locations? I could easily stuff these areas all the way across the top of each wall.

Dunno, have to check them photos but I'm lazy :) Sure you wanna cover all that beautiful wood?

Question #5: I am wondering about the geometry of the peaked roof and clerestory. Trying to calculate resonances of the peak and asymmetrical clerestory is well beyond my engineering/math skills. Are there any obvious good corners in this space for bass trapping? The possibilities I see are the 90 degree corners between 6/12 ceiling and East and West Walls, and in the East and West three way corners of the Clerestory. Trapping across the length of the acutely angled peak of the clerestory won't work because the windows are within inches of the peak and I do not want to block the sunshine.

Good point about keeping daylight coming in. Again; if there's no room for basstrapping then it's just too bad. don't worry.

Questions about possible bass/ general broadband trapping: Question #6: Would clouds placed on top of the horizontal ties of the trusses act at all as bass traps or just broadband traps? Question #7: It seems to me that clouds above the mixing console and above the drum kit would both be good... yes/no? Question #8 would cloud placement on top of the horizontal truss ties be OK, or would hanging them below be better? It would be a heck of a lot easier putting them on top.

Clouds work wonderfull above any source. Cymbals need some absorption for sure, they are always too loud and ringy. Adding a "cloud" (or absorping panel) on top of the trusses can be done, you get lesser absorption but if it works you'll have less work to do indeed. Just try it!

Question #9a: Would a trap/partition from floor to ceiling in front of the stairway railing behind the drum kit be a good idea or would that much absorbent material be too much for mid/high frequencies? Question #9b: Would a slatted surface facing the room space be a better idea?

Dunno, there's a simple quideline: add absorption opposite of a hard surface. That's true for floor/ceiling also (especially with wood flooring)

Question #10 would the priority for the design of question #9's trap change if the console was facing this vs it being behind the drumkit?

yes, that could be.

Question #11 Is there any other info I need to provide to make answering these questions easier and/or to qualify for responses from the World class authors and experts?

Yes, you need to add superlatives like "you guys ROCK", "I love this place", "never seen such great chaps" etc ;) no serious, you're doing fine.

Aloha and welcome to the forum, Beautiful room you have there, sir! :D

-The floor is pretty live and I have noise from foot (pedal) movement playing drums. I already moved the kit to be more directly above a post below instead of just over joists. However, more isolation is needed. I though maybe adding a couple layer of carpet padding under a layer or two of OSB with carpet on top may help... yes/no?

Since your floor is on post and beam support, in addition to a drum riser, you may need to beef up and insulate under your flooring between the floor joists with plywood, sheetrock or mdf (depending on how much exposure to moisture you have) & insulate with rock wool/pink fluffy stuff, much like the beefing up of basement ceilings.

-There is a bass boom in the room. I am not sure what frequency as I do not have equipment or know how to determine.

From your room measurements, i would hazard a guess @ 75Hz, 151Hz, 226Hz, 301Hz

- I am generally concerned about sound reflection from the east windows. What strategy can be employed here to limit sound problems yet retain the view?

Perhaps heavy drapes during tracking, but can be pulled back for viewing?

-What is general strategy to add absorbtion/diffusion for this room?

The "general" strategy would be to add bass traps to corners of room (if more trapping is needed, wall/ceiling intersections also count as "corners"), eliminate parallel surfaces with absorption/slot resonators/clouds. How much absorption will depend on how "live" you prefer your recordings to sound, in addition to treating any abnormal amounts of low/low-mid freq buildup you may have.

-What general layout is advised, especially for mixing station?

Considering your desire for a "one room" design, perhaps Wes Lachot's design may work for you (see attached) Hope this helps, Aloha 8)

OK, I am feeling good about starting to place bass traps and clouds. I got a bunch of Thermafiber 2.5pcf material, a heap of canvas and drapery fabrics and will be well on the way with this soon. A couple of follow up questions on other aspects: Regarding the drum platform/floor resonance problems:

-The floor is pretty live and I have noise from foot (pedal) movement playing drums. I already moved the kit to be more directly above a post below instead of just over joists. However, more isolation is needed. I though maybe adding a couple layer of carpet padding under a layer or two of OSB with carpet on top may help... yes/no?

kendale wrote:

Since your floor is on post and beam support, in addition to a drum riser, you may need to beef up and insulate under your flooring between the floor joists with plywood, sheetrock or mdf (depending on how much exposure to moisture you have) & insulate with rock wool/pink fluffy stuff, much like the beefing up of basement ceilings.

Kendale: I laid up some 4" 4pcf thermafiber, and MDF and still have a lot of floor/pedal noise. You said I should think about beefing up the floor. I may have improperly used the term "isolation". I am not concerned about sound transmission to the first floor underneath, just the resonance of the floor itself and the pedal noise. However, I figure I will at least beef up the joist structure underneath. Would it be helpful to use some kind of soft material or caulk between joists and floor deck? Would other insulation between joists help dampen this noise or just serve to help reduce sound down below on the first floor? Regarding the windows:

- I am generally concerned about sound reflection from the east windows. What strategy can be employed here to limit sound problems yet retain the view?

kendale wrote:

Perhaps heavy drapes during tracking, but can be pulled back for viewing?

Certainly a possibility. Any advice/links about drapery design for acoustics? I was planning on insulated curtains anyway made from bed quilts/comforters and heavier UV resistant backing. Also wondering about movable panels/gobos? Regarding north south orientation locating the control area vs drums:

-My first thought in terms of the functionality of the space was to keep the drum kit where it is and set up the console and monitors along the south wall (the green wall in the photos, and the wall on the right side of the East/west elevation drawing. In terms of it's location in the larger overall picture of the geometry of the room, the clerestory is on the south side of the roof structure for light and solar gain since this is the northern hemisphere). Question #1: Is there any reason that I should reverse this north/south orientation based on this overall room geometry or other functional issues, i.e. put the drums on the south end of the room, and console facing north in front of the stairs?

Ro wrote:

Consider your monitors. They will need some (much) absorption on reflection points. Prolly a good start is to put them on the opposite wall (or corner) from where you can make a good absorbing wall (or corner).

Taking all into consideration, I have a bit of confusion/dilemma here. I am thinking about building the previously mentioned floor to ceiling trap next to the stair railing as a backing for the mixing station and monitors. If build with a soft front facing the room, this could be a great place to even build soffits for the monitors, and I think that the resulting listening position would be closer to optimal (38%). This way too, I don't have to worry about blocking the view out the south wall windows. However it does leave the south wall windows as the rear wall for mixing which are reflective, Regarding Ro's statement, it seems instead of absorption on the back wall, often some reflectivity and/or diffusion is used. I guess I could use curtains here too, but are there other specific considerations if those windows are the rear wall for mixing? Otherwise, the monitors would go essentially against the south wall in front of the windows and any kind of attempt to build soffits would obscure the windows. Also, to achieve a 38% listening position, the console would take up a major amount of otherwise usable floor space. I'll try to draw up a plan to show these options visually. Once drawn, I will also know actual dimensions for possible monitor and listening geometry.... will be looking for further input on this soon.

kendale wrote:

Considering your desire for a "one room" design, perhaps Wes Lachot's design may work for you (see attached)

Unfortunately I don't see any way to angle the longs walls of the room, but other aspects of the drawing are helpful. Another new question: This space is not a closed room per se, but the stairwell is open to the first story. Is there anything I should be considering in this regard? For example, will I potentially have more bass resonances due to this extra coupled room volume? Thanks for the input so far!

Beautiful room mountain hick. sorry i took so long to read your post, wasn't excepting such a great space. With the ceiling I would build panel traps that fit in between the trusses, leaving the wood exposed. attched them directly to the ceiling. Pedal noise- While not knowing the weight restrictions of the floor, Would a sandfilled or cement riser work better? lil

lilith_envy wrote:

Beautiful room mountain hick. sorry i took so long to read your post, wasn't excepting such a great space. With the ceiling I would build panel traps that fit in between the trusses, leaving the wood exposed. attched them directly to the ceiling. Pedal noise- While not knowing the weight restrictions of the floor, Would a sandfilled or cement riser work better? lil

Thanks, Would there be any benefit from attaching panels across the rafters instead of in between to gain airspace behind the insulation? And if so would it help to isolate/seal up the airspaces by adding wood cross blocking? Regarding the drum platform, I think I'll start by beefing up the joists. I really don't want to add concrete or sand if I can avoid it.