Open 20'X53'x12' Space for a Design Concept. in USA

Hello everyone. I want to start by apologizing for not following the BEFORE YOU POST READ THIS rules in a previous post. Herer My goal is to lease a storefront property in a small strip mall in Calumet Township, IN USA for a Recording Studio. In this Space I plan on Producing, Mixing, Recording church choirs and bands as well as record Hip Hop and R&B. Right now I am in the process of signing the one year lease and I have all the equipment for recording single artists that I need. Right now I have been recording in a one bedroom apartment with neighbors above and on the sides of me. I often get bangs on the ceiling and acasionally police at the door telling me to turn down my music. All reference to the building is as if I was standing in the front of the building looking towards the back. The building is 20' Wide, 53' Long and 12' High. Currenty there is a drop ceiling throughout 9'7" High. There is gluedown carpet on a concrete slab and the Front of the space is covered completely in Glass. There is a bathroom in the Left rear corner 5' Long ways to the building, 4'Wide and 8'High. The door is in the center of the bathrom on the 5' Long wall (if I was coming out of the bathroom I would be looking at the right side wall). Entry door is all glass and is located 2" off of the left hand side if you are facing the building. The Rear door is located on the rear wall 4' Right of the bathroom corner. Electrical panel is 2' to the right of the rear door and water meter is 3' to the left of the Bathroom on the left side wall. The Rear Wall and Both Side walls are Block and the HVAC is on the roof. The roof is a built up flat contruction. The space I work in now is 11' Wide and 11' Long. The width is ok for me but the lenth is too short becuae of seating. I dont know a lick about setting up a drum rig so I thought about getting the Roland V-Drums and just running everything MIDI. I eventually want to be able to to record a B3 and Live Drums but not now. What I do want to do with this space is: 1. Control room/Music Production Room with Direct Visual to Vocalist. 2. Larger Live room where I can record choirs. 3. Sleeping area with TV and Couch for me because this will also be where I lay my head at night, Could also double as a lounge. 4. Small kitchen area with sink. Ok here's the Budget.........$5,000 :o I am a capenter by trade and I can do all the work myself. I am very very very very good with a tape measure! Andrew has helped me with a sckethup drawing but I realized now just how detailed I needed to be. I thought I had it all figured out but my main engineer told me that I would be making a huge mistake if I did not put the Vocolist in front of the the mixer but now that I am sitting here posting this..........I am looking at two big 22" LCD monitors and I am not going to be able to see the artist throught them anyway! But I do want to please him because I work a 9 to 5 and he would be basically running things. Again I hope this information is enough and Thanks for all the great information that is offered by this site. P.S. how important is ADA in a studio environment?

That's a good-sized space, and your initial design isn't bad. But, you are going to have a challenge building a space that size out for $5k. You'll have to use mostly found/recycled materials. I'm speccing out a small build in my garage next year, it will just be a mix/composition/overdub room, a tiny 11x9x7 room, and with material costs alone I'll be over $3000 (including HVAC, green glue, insulation, sheetrock, lumber, electrical).

rontal wrote:

Hello everyone. I want to start by apologizing for not following the BEFORE YOU POST READ THIS rules in a previous post. Herer Andrew has helped me with a sckethup drawing but I realized now just how detailed I needed to be.

You moved again? Trying to keep up with you is like chasing rabbits :) Andrew=Andre

Start thinking budget and reality. The concept drawing I mad has 8 acoustic doors. Assuming $300 per door seals and $150 per door blank, that is $3,800 right there. You wrote about a budget of $5,000. Congratulations on learning the dimensioning tool in Sketchup! Andre

AVare wrote:

Start thinking budget and reality. The concept drawing I mad has 8 acoustic doors. Assuming $300 per door seals and $150 per door blank, that is $3,800 right there. You wrote about a budget of $5,000. Congratulations on learning the dimensioning tool in Sketchup! Andre

I was actually thinking about studing double walls with 2x4 studs 2' on center then 5/8 drywall then r channel then another layer of 5/8 drywall. Using menards ready made exterior doors with seal and threshhold already attached then on inside of doors a layer of homocode fiberboard is priced out at exactly $182 per door. Thermal double paned windows I already have 2 6'x4' and 2 5'x4'. I have about 50 sheets of 5/8 drywall 4'x10'. Construction cost I wasnt worried about too much because I have a big old commercial account at lowes. I am manley budgeting wireing and panels and treatment blah blah blah blah because these are the things thats going to come out of pocket. Sorry if I was misleading.

I was actually thinking about studing double walls with 2x4 studs 2' on center then 5/8 drywall then r channel then another layer of 5/8 drywall.

But wont that give you a four-leaf wall? I thought that was a really bad idea, and that 2-leaf was the only way to go?

Soundman2020 wrote:

I was actually thinking about studing double walls with 2x4 studs 2' on center then 5/8 drywall then r channel then another layer of 5/8 drywall.

But wont that give you a four-leaf wall? I thought that was a really bad idea, and that 2-leaf was the only way to go?

Ok I can see what you are talking about. I would have to do Double Drywall<----R channel<-----stud<--------Rockwool<------2 inches of space<---------Stud<-------R Channel<---------Double Drywall? Walls would end of bein around 13" think. That should provide pretty good ISO I would think?

What you detailed is mostly not applicable for studio construction or insufficient for your build. Doing some re-ordering and grouping, going through you post in detail...

rontal wrote:

I was actually thinking about studing double walls with 2x4 studs 2' on center then 5/8 drywall then r channel then another layer of 5/8 drywall.

As already posted, that would give you a quadruple leaf. Bad. Double stud walls do not need RC.

I have about 50 sheets of 5/8 drywall 4'x10'.

There is 126' of exterior wall. A double layer on that will use 64 sheets. The ceiling will use ~50 sheets. Nothing calculated for interior walls. Granted these are gross estimates based on exterior dimensions, but you can see that 50 sheets does not even cover half of what will be needed.

Using menards ready made exterior doors with seal and threshhold already attached then on inside of doors a layer of homocode fiberboard is priced out at exactly $182 per door.

Specific details needed. Doors require mass. How heavy are these doors? If Homocode is what I think it is, it is useless in this application. I have never heard of residential door seals being adequate for sound isolation. The design concept I drew up has 4 doors that are 4' wide. Not a residential size door. 2, possibly 4 have large windows. 2 of them and the window to the larger iso booth could be replaced with double sliding glass doors. I seem to recall you writing on Gearslutz those are $1,200 each in your part of the world.

Thermal double paned windows I already have 2 6'x4' and 2 5'x4'.

Such windows are useless for sound isolation.

Construction cost I wasnt worried about too much because I have a big old commercial account at lowes. I am manley budgeting wireing and panels and treatment blah blah blah blah because these are the things thats going to come out of pocket. Sorry if I was misleading.

Right off the top, HVAC could run $5,000. Room interior acoustic treatment could run %5,000. Floor finish could. Good news is that the windows themselves will not run $5,000. :wink: Is the current electrical service adequate? Just the service upgrade can run a couple of thousand dollars. To just frame the space requires ~1,000 ft of studs/joists. $500 in your area with your account? No matter how you look at it, $5,000 is inadequate. Give all the relevant details in one post so that people who may want to help you do not get pissed of with new items being thrown in after ideas are thought of and their ideas are discounted for unknown factors. You have Sketchup and have made a good start at using it. Get more comfortable with it detail your thoughts and assign dollar costs. Three things to do immediately are: 1. Purchase Rod's book Home Studio: Build it Like the Pros and absorb it form cover to cover. 2, Purchase and read Everest's Master Handbook of Acoustics and read it at least once. 3. Read the last 25 posts in each of the first three sections here (Design, Construction, and Acoustics). This will give you a good start at building your studio and getting the best possible with a realistic budget that will not be exceeded ridiculously. The items I wrote are from just things that stand out from what you have written specifically. I am certain others will post with additional significant information. Remember what I have not written for over three days in a post. Good studio building is 90% design and 10% construction. Andre

Ok I can see what you are talking about. I would have to do Double Drywall<----R channel<-----stud<--------Rockwool<------2 inches of space<---------Stud<-------R Channel<---------Double Drywall?

Yes, except that you don't need the RC since you are already doing a double-stud wall. Don't waste money on stuff you don't need. Instead, use it for stuff you do need.

Walls would end of bein around 13" think. That should provide pretty good ISO I would think?

It's not how thick your walls are, but how they are built, and how much mass is in them. According to Rod's book, the design of "Double Drywall<-----stud<--------Rockwool<------2 inches of space<---------Stud<---------Double Drywall" should get you 63, if I recall correctly, and if you use Green Glue between the layers of drywall, then that should go up to (I think) something like 68. I'm pulling those numbers from memory as I don't have Rod's book on hand with me right now, so I might be wrong, but they are close. But like AVare said, I'd suggest that you should read this forum over in great detail before you go any further. I've found it ti be an incredible source of really sound (no pun intended!) advice from real experts who absolutely know what they are talking about, and have built more studios between them than anyone else you could possibly mention. Also, get Rod's book, and read it carefully. And only then should you continue with your design. The time it takes do that will be well worth it. It will save you from wasting your money and time on building something that just isn't going to get anywhere close to giving you the results that you want. Personally, I was hoping to be started on my build by now, but I'm still in the design phase because I've realized that I still don't know enough to get it right. Only once I'm done with the design and the expert members here have given it a favorable comment, only then will I start building. AVare is also right about your budget. When I joined up here a couple of months ago, I also thought I could do this for maybe US$ 4k or 5k. I'm now reckoning on at least double that, and my space isn't as large as yours. That doesn't mean that I'm not going to do it: It means I'm going to take more time doing it, because I know that if I don't do it exactly right, then I will have just thrown away good money. If I decide to skimp and try to do it for, say, US$ 5k, then I might just as well take fifty brand new hundred-dollar bills and dump them in the trash, because that would get me the exact same result. I guess I'm trying to encourage you to review your plans, review your knowledge, review your budget, listen to the experts here, and do it right, or don't waste your money and don't build anything.

I think that you guys are absolutely right! :cry: I "Have" to do this! Although I am coming to a sad realization about the actual cost..........I still have to do it! So I have decided: 1. Go with the side designs I see here and just focus on building the control room only. 2. Eat the windows that I got and get the "proper" windows and doors. I need a link to where I can order the doors and glasses from. 3. Give up my apartment and build a 11' x 11' foot room in the back right corner to live in. Use all the money I save to slowly build the Iso booth. 4. Wait Wait Wait Wait Wait Wait Wait Wait and then start constructing the Live room. Man this is all so so so sad but I do need a solid design and I think I have it now! Although not drawn up completly but I am steadily picking away at sketchup trying to put it together but you guys make it look easy but I guess I sux at it! Special thx to Andre man you are Godsent! P.S. I record now in my apartment in the same room as my computer and about 6 2x4 sheets of arolex and everyone I record love my mixes :? Crazy thinking about all of this becuase I make about $1200 a month in a apartment so now I am convinced that I can open to the public but you guys are so so so so so technical that its scary!!!!! :D

Think of it more like you are in a house with a lot of people interested in the same things you are interested in. Now if you are currently making 1200 a month in an 11ftX11ft apartment room, you have no where to go but up ;)

Don't get disheartened. If you follow what is written here by the knowledgeable people, you get the best possible value for you money and space. Once you have read the last 25 posts in each area, it wil be obvious which people are knowledgeable. It has been mentioned and you have remarked on it so you have read it at least once. Answer all the question in the Before you post... Right off the bat you have not told us how much of the construction you will be doing yourself. STC is not appropriate by itself for describing sound isolation for music. There is a double wall construction that has an STC 69 with greater 30 DB of isolation from 63 Hz up and is just under 12" thick. As far as doors with windows, they are cheapest to build yourself. Are you building yourself? Hmm, are you detecting a pattern about information needed? Keep going through all the forms of tutorials of Sketchup and practice making various with the tools as you learn them. The quicker you learn it, the quicker the JLS or any other website design process will become usable. Once you get get comfortable with Sketchup, that, messages, and chat where available, will work together on a great studio design. Remember just because is impossible, it doesn't necessarily mean it can't be done without sufficient thinking and planning. Andre

Right off the bat you have not told us how much of the construction you will be doing yourself.

Actually, Andre, he did say that: "I am a capenter by trade and I can do all the work myself. I am very very very very good with a tape measure! "

Soundman2020 wrote:

Right off the bat you have not told us how much of the construction you will be doing yourself.

Actually, Andre, he did say that: "I am a capenter by trade and I can do all the work myself. I am very very very very good with a tape measure! "

Thank you. I missed that. Ron: Another thing to avoid is expecting perfect responses from people like me who read as well they tpye. Youre Grully, Andre

AVare wrote:

Soundman2020 wrote:

Right off the bat you have not told us how much of the construction you will be doing yourself.

Actually, Andre, he did say that: "I am a capenter by trade and I can do all the work myself. I am very very very very good with a tape measure! "

Thank you. I missed that. Ron: Another thing to avoid is expecting perfect responses from people like me who read as well they tpye. Youre Grully, Andre

Funny! Hey I was looking for that 69 STC wall that you mentioned and I found it in the the pdf file with all of the wall systems tested! 2 layers of 5/8 drywall....stud....insulation....space......stud......insulation......2 layers of 5/8 drywall. Best hour I have spent in the last month but I have a question... 90 mm of glass fibre insulation??????? Is this rockwool or your basic r11 insulation that you get at home Depot/menards? And if it is rockwool than whats the STC value of the same wall system but with r11 in it? 2 layers of 5/8 drywall....stud....insulation....space......stud......insulation......2 layers of 5/8 drywall.

rontal wrote:

Hey I was looking for that 69 STC wall that you mentioned... Best hour I have spent in the last month

I'm glad you enjoyed it. In future when referring to documents where it is not clear to what you are referring to, would you post a link like NRC IR 761?

but I have a question... 90 mm of glass fibre insulation??????? Is this rockwool or your basic r11 insulation that you get at home Depot/menards? And if it is rockwool than whats the STC value of the same wall system but with r11 in it?

Uh, you have IR 761. If it has been tested it is probably in there. Glass fibre is the generic term for fiberglas. Andre edit 08.10.20: Added words to make sentences resemble english language.

Ok.......I hope to I got this one right! I have a order on hold for 4 4X4 1/4" laminated glasses for my windows. I made a deal with the guy that I got the thermal glasses from and he is willing to take them back! The glasses will cost $440 because they can get the 4 peices from two sheets. I wanted to go with 4X6 but that would require 4 sheets and would cost $660. I am willing to pay the extra $220 for the larger windows but I wanted to make sure that I was ordering the correct stuff. From all the reading I have been doing I think I am but........ I thought alot of other stuff that I was WRONG about so what do you guys think? I am only building the controll room with Windows on the left and right now. Then focus on the Iso booth on the left and save for the live room. I still have to get the doors and would like to have glass in the door or "doors" to the control room and The solid veneer doors I am looking at now have a stc of 56? Any thoughts? This is just too Exciting!! Havnt slept good in weeks :D

"Construction cost I wasnt worried about too much because I have a big old commercial account at lowes. " And they in turn have a big old user fee that comes for ever and can ruin a small business ;) If this was something I was looking into, here are a few things that I would consider: No credit for this small startup. And no credit when I can pay cash. Look at the numbers for Lowes or anyones user fees and see how far out they go and how far under you go. Re-visit your design. Taking out the vocal booths gives you much needed cash to work on and do BETTER, your build. These things can come later if need be, when the cash flows in from my perennial recording shop. Slow down. This is most likely the best advice anyone can give but is the most often overlooked. 5K just is not as much as you think it is. Prove it to yourself and get a list of materials, a real list that remembers nails, screws, mud, tape, too many trips back to the warehouse due to forgetting the first time. Then place license fees, electrical, plumbing and basic inspection fees topped out by hvac costs. Have you ever known a boss that wasn't a tight-wad? There is a reason for that :)

rontal wrote:

I am only building the controll room with Windows on the left and right now. Then focus on the Iso booth on the left and save for the live room. I still have to get the doors and would like to have glass in the door or "doors" to the control room and The solid veneer doors I am looking at now have a stc of 56? Any thoughts? This is just too Exciting!! Havnt slept good in weeks :D

I was really hoping I could get verification on the specs of the glass. I understand that I cant do it all now but I also Have to get up and running considering the lease with utilities and all is costing me over $1000 a month sooooooooooo time is of the essence in my case. I work a 9 to 5 and the offices surronded my space closes up around 5 so I am ok for noise but hopefully with all the help and reading from this forum that wont be a problem anyway! The permit costed me $60 dollars and I have already started constructing the lounge considering this is where I am going to be sleeping :cry: but hey a dream is always going to be a dream if you dont make it realitiy! What do you guys think about r13 vs rockwool? just a question r14 is regular sound and weather insulation that you can purchase in any home improvement store : lowes, menards, homedepot?

Just bought Rod's book! another $32 out of the po-man's budget :D

Ok I ordered the glass that I needed 40"X60" 2 1/2" and 2 3/4". I have a question about airtight?? Does airtight means sealed between the 2 walls where air has no where to go or each room should not have any voids in it that would allow sound to travel the path of air? This is why I am asking...The building now has a dropped ceiling in it 9'7" high. I was going to build up to the ceilings using the tracks as a fastening method for the outter walls of the CR room . Next build a room inside of that room for the CR inner walls and put a ceiling in at 9" with double layer of 5/8 drywall and insulate the top of it with r19 or Mineral wool if I can even find it at a affordable price. Now Iso on left of CR inner wall would be tied to the drop ceiling and now is where I am scratching my head. Do I take the walls up to the deck or WTF because one either way I go the one wall inner would be one walls outer? I am confusing myself! But you guys get what I am saying. So in this case there is no way that I could totally seal the walls in between the 3 rooms because these wall supposed to not touch each other. Am I making sense?? Design is this Iso room on on left HxLxW 9'x8'x5' CR in middle 9'x14'x12' live room on right?????? Not building right now so I will just leave it open for future expansion but I am going to to install the windows on both sides. Door leading to control room will be on the left side that the Iso window is on Double door. Doors For the Iso will be adjacent to the CR doors in the middle of the 5' Iso wall. I really really need to get my sketchup file going but I get so damn fustrated trying to figure it out!

"Now Iso on left of CR inner wall would be tied to the drop ceiling..." You do not want to do this. The grid is designed to support tile and that is about it :) It supports a dead load. Even if it looks like a good idea, even if your buddy says he did it, you do not want to go there. Expecting ceiling grid to stabilize walls can be detrimental to your health in the near future.

rontal wrote:

I have a question about airtight?? Does airtight means sealed between the 2 walls where air has no where to go or each room should not have any voids in it that would allow sound to travel the path of air?

"Airtight" means that you seal everything, caulking all joints carefully, on all of your walls and the ceiling, plus the door frames. Basically, you want each leaf of your "room within a room" to be totally hermetic.

Now Iso on left of CR inner wall would be tied to the drop ceiling and now is where I am scratching my head. Do I take the walls up to the deck or WTF because one either way I go the one wall inner would be one walls outer? I am confusing myself! But you guys get what I am saying.

Ummm.... actually, not! :) Maybe a diagram or SkethUp model would help to show what you are trying to explain? It's hard to picture it just from words.

So in this case there is no way that I could totally seal the walls in between the 3 rooms because these wall supposed to not touch each other.

Not really. Each of the three inner rooms (ISO, CR, LR) has to be hermetically sealed by itself, and all three of them are sealed within the outer leaf, which is also hermetic. Think of it this way: Imagine that you were going to fill up one of the rooms with water. You want the inner leaf of that room to be so tight that no water can leak out of that room into the gaps between that room and the other room, or that room and the outer leaf. So no matter which room you fill with water, only that room will get wet. Also, if you filled the gaps between the rooms and the outer leaf with water, then only the gaps would get wet: nothing would leak in to any of the three rooms. No substitute "air" for "water" in that mental picture, and you have the idea of how to seal.

I really really need to get my sketchup file going but I get so damn fustrated trying to figure it out!

Yup! Definitely you need to do that! At first SketchUp does seem a little quirky, but once you get going you'll find it is extremely powerful, and extremely useful. And you definitely need to take xSpace's advice on the drop ceiling tracks: Those things just cannot safely support the kind of weight you are going to need here. I'd suggest that you take it out completely, beef up whatever is above you (if it needs it for good isolation), and use the space where the drop ceiling was to build a proper "inner leaf" ceiling over each room, with at least a couple of layers of drywall, firmly screwed to a solid wood or metal framing structure that is properly designed to handle the weight of many hundreds of pounds of drywall. - Stuart -

The Drop ceiling would not be carrying any wieght at all. The Studs would go up to it then the inner leaf would support its own ceiling just would not be any ceiling above the outerleaf walls just the drop ceiling that was always there. It is a one story building with pipes and vents and other commercial stuff above the drop ceiling. The block wall on either side go all the way up to the metal deck that has a flat build up roof on top of it. Let me c if I can draw the scenario.

The Studs would go up to it then the inner leaf would support its own ceiling just would not be any ceiling above the outerleaf walls just the drop ceiling that was always there.

The way you described it there, it seems to me that you have three leaves, or maybe even four! Maybe I'm just not getting the right mental image here. I think I'd better wait for that diagram / model, to try to understand the situation!