Basement Studio/Practice Room Build (CLOSED)

UPDATE: THIS THREAD IS FINISHED. I've decided to change my design because I now have more available space and additional budget. Please see this post for details on the factors of this change. Ok, I read the posting requirements, and I'm going to endeavour to give you all the information I can. First of all, this is an attempt to document my build and share my experiences. I've spent the last few weeks devouring several books, this forum, and many other similar sites. I've come up with a plan that fits my budget - but it must be understood that it's not the greatest build plan out there. I could get way more detailed and extensive with my renovations, but I have neither the time nor the money. I'm doing this build in a very particular way: I'm trying to build it in phases, so that we can get to using the space as soon as possible (we're being kicked out of my guitarist's basement by his wife, and need somewhere else ASAP) for basic practicing. Then over time, and as I have additional funds, I will add to the build. To begin with, I have a room within an already finished basement (it was finished when we bought the house). Just having a finished basement did a great deal to dampen the sound coming out of the house - I was surprised (I've never owned a house with a finished basement, and was used to practicing in unfinished basements). Shortly after we moved in, I setup my PA system down there, and my bass rig, and ran my iPod through them, then walked around the house, inside and out. I was amazed at how much the sound was dampened. Inside the house, in the room just above, it's still pretty loud (hardwood floors on the subfloor), though not loud enough that you couldn't watch TV in that room if you turned it up just a bit. I walked outside and found that I could hear the music while standing right next to the house, but it sounded like it was very far away, as if a few rooms away. I walked to my two nearest neighbors houses and could barely hear anything - they didn't even notice it until I pointed it out to them. Well, that was a relief. So only if the neighbors are outside or inside with windows open and they're in the rooms facing our house, should they be able to hear us. But most everyone in this neighborhood runs central air, and the white noise from the external AC units masks the sound completely. Now, I know things could get a bit louder with a real drumset, two guitar amps, me pounding away on my bass rig, etc., plus I wanted to isolate the room from the rest of the house a bit more, so I am proceeding to update the sound qualities of this room in this build. Luckily I have a lovely, tolerant wife who not only puts up with my music, but encourages this and other such creative endeavours. She's very excited that our house will be the new hub for the various bands and music projects I'm involved in. And I'm very grateful to have her support, though I understand that she may not always feel this way, so I'm going to do my best to isolate the sound to that room alone. (since this seems long-winded, I'll continue in another post...)

UPDATE: THIS THREAD IS FINISHED. I've decided to change my design because I now have more available space and additional budget. Please see this post for details on the factors of this change. Because of budget and time constraints (like I said, I have to make the space available for practice ASAP), I'm working with the existing construction as much as possible. The room currently is 12x12, with the fourth wall not a complete wall - it has a large open doorway in the middle of it. I'm knocking out that wall, and rebuilding it about 7 feet away, this time with a door that will close. The final size of the room will be 12x19. The room will be setup with the main control console in the room, mainly because I'll be the one running the Logic rig/mixer, and be playing much of the time as well. But I'll also have a small removable panel in the wall to pass through cables, so that I can set up the control console in the next room if necessary. In the event of passing those cables through, I'll use yet to be determined techniques to make a decent seal around them. The current room has two walls that are studded against the poured concrete foundation. In the attached drawings these are the wall to the left, and the wall at the bottom. There's little I can do to these walls without removing the drywall, which I'm not interested in doing at this point. Frankly, they seem to be doing a pretty good job absorbing sound. The top wall in the drawing is just drywall on studs, and open on the other side. The other side is open to a very small server room (~12x7), a storage room, and the furnace/water heater. My plan is to put fibreglass batts between the studs on that wall, then cover the wall with Audimute Peacemaker rubber sheeting (basically a budget and environmentally friendly version of MLV), and then put on a layer of drywall up on that side. But that's actually the very last step of my build, because it's not absolutely necessary to use the room. But since it will definitely enhance the sound isolation quality of the room, I'll be doing it eventually. (Also, the fact that I have to work around the furnace, well that's put it on the back burner as well.) The wall to the right of the drawing is the all new one I spoke of. Since I am building that from scratch, that will be the most sound dampened wall yet. Basically it will be framed in with 2x4s, with an foam-filled metal exterior door used as the door. From what I've read here, I know it's not the idea door, but it was only $116 at Lowes, frame included. I'll use some of the techniques described in this forum to dampen and seal the door better than it is, but I'm not going to go through the trouble of the Super Door treatment - with all the other weaknesses this room will have, the door needs to just be good, not great. The area on the other side of this wall is the rest of my finished basement, which will mainly be used for entertaining (but not while we're recording, so I'm not that worried about a bit of sound bleed. After framing, this wall will have a layer of Audimute Peacemaker rubber sheeting applied, then a layer of drywall. From the outside I'll put fibreglass batts between the studs, then another layer of Audimute Peacemaker, then drywall. Although I could double drywall it, I'm saving that for a later upgrade for the whole room if I decide it needs it (I'm hoping not). (and now the ceiling... continued...)

UPDATE: THIS THREAD IS FINISHED. I've decided to change my design because I now have more available space and additional budget. Please see this post for details on the factors of this change. Well, before I get to the ceiling, let's talk more about the outside environment. We live in the city, but it's in a suburban area. We're on a cul de sac, and the closest houses to us are about 50-60ft away - to the south (side) of the house and to the west (back). Every other house is about 85ft away or more. The room is in the northwest corner of the house , so that means two of the walls of the room are against the foundation, and both those wall face the house to the west. These two closest houses are the only two I'm really worried about disturbing, but mainly just the house to the west, due to the proximity of the room, and the fact that the house to the south has their garage between us, and they always run their AC. The other big concern, as I mention earlier is not letting all this sound bleed upstairs and fill the entire house, so that one cannot watch TV or relax in other parts of the house. Although the wife is tolerant and even encouraging, I don't want to press my luck - this is going to be my musical domain for the rest of our lives. I know that her tolerance might wear thin one day if I'm not careful. The ceiling of the room was previously a drop ceiling. I've removed and thrown away the cheap fibreglass-based panels, but left the grid up. The subfloor above the joists is right under the hardwood floor of our living room and part of the kitchen (stone tile) upstairs. I've basically come to the realization that without major changes to the flooring upstairs (which we just put in a year ago before I ever had plans on building this basement studio), I just have to live with the fact that we can't record while people are walking around upstairs. I've talked to my wife about this extensively, and she agreed that she won't mind spending time on the second floor or out of the house when we're in recording mode (which won't be as often as practice mode). So, I've applied Audimute Peacemaker sheeting to the underside of the subfloor between the joists. It's reduced walking sounds from the floor above a little, but not much. Its more there to absorb sounds going upwards from the room. My plan is to then fill the space between the joists with several layers of fibreglass batting. Then I'm going to replace the drop ceiling tiles with a thicker, stronger acoustic tile that Armstrong makes. It's a fiberboard type, with a good acoustic rating. Each of these tiles is 2'x4'. I have 2'x4' Auralex-type wedge foam sheets, and I'm going to spray mount them to the ceiling tiles. Then when I drop them back in the grid, the foam will be against the grid. This will keep the tiles from touching the grid directly, and, I hope, prevent any rattling from the grid. I've already played my bass rig extensively down there before I pulled out the old tile and didn't notice any major rattling or resonance in the grid. So I hope between the Peacemaker sheeting on the subfloor, the batting between the joists, and the acoustic fiberboard tile in the drop ceiling, I'll absorb enough sound to make living upstairs from the room tolerable, and maybe even make it so my wife can watch TV directly above us while we practice. And the wedge foam is intended just to break up any slap-back off the flat surface of the ceiling tile. Before anyone says it, I do know it won't do much if anything to dampen the sound leaving the room. (next... current room status and wall plans... continued...)

UPDATE: THIS THREAD IS FINISHED. I've decided to change my design because I now have more available space and additional budget. Please see this post for details on the factors of this change. Before I forget again: windows. I replaced the existing single pane windows with glass block. INSTANT IMPROVEMENT IN SOUND ISOLATION! So now I just need to come up with some way to "plug" the windows - for better absorption. I'm thinking several layers of sound blankets stretched over a frame to fit the window hole and the fiberglass insulation in the space in between? I want it to be a temporary solution, so I can remove it if we want to ventilate the room with fresh air (the glass block have sealable vents). There are only two window on the west wall (bottom in the first drawings) of the studio space. The other windows are on the south wall of my house. All have been replaced with glass block. As far as the treatment for the walls, before I go and double drywall them and put a layer of Peacemaker between the drywall (which is my fall-back if idea 1 doesn't work), I'm going to try this: covering the walls with Audimute Sound Blankets. They're quite good at absorption. See my previous post on the subject: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 0120#80120 Well, since they look pretty ghetto just hanging there, I'm going with a more permanent method of attaching them. I got the idea from the Audimute website, from one of their customer's photos of his drum room. I'm going to tack them up, and then secure them with 1x4s, essentially creating a framing around them. This also allows me the luxury of not painting the walls or worrying about making the drywall/mudding on the new wall perfect. See the last picture attached for the room which inspired me to do this. I think it has a nicer, finished look. But ultimately, we'll have to see how much these sheets will do for me. I may end up taking them down and putting up another layer of drywall on all the walls and then putting the blankets back up. I may even put a layer of the Peacemaker sheeting between that second layer of drywall. But that's down the road, and only if my current plan doesn't work as well as I hope. (continued...)

Control Room Window. Well, since I don't actually have a control room, and will rarely be using the Logic console outside of the room, I'm not too worried about having a window into the space. After reading all the gory details on just how difficult a job it is to install one properly, I've opted not to do so. So I had an idea that to me seems much more logical, cost effective, and just plain simpler than an actual window to the control room: A webcam. Or several. Then anyone can you want to give access to the cam can see in the studio, not just the control room. I'm actually amazed this hasn't become a more standard practice for budget studio setups. It just seems logical to me. And we get the added benefit of being able to dump a live cam (or at least periodically updated images) out to our band's website for promotional purposes. You can pick up WiFi cam that has its own built-in webserver (doesn't require a PC for broadcast) - so you can hit it from any browser - for about $100, but I've found refurbed units for half that price. We plan on installing several in the room.

UPDATE: THIS THREAD IS FINISHED. I've decided to change my design because I now have more available space and additional budget. Please see this post for details on the factors of this change. The one thing I'm not sure about is the door to the server room. The servers in there have very loud fan noise. The current door is a standard interior hollow-core door. It actually probably cuts the sound in half when closed. I am thinking about replacing it with a solid pine interior door ($85), and then adding sound treatment to the door. But I'm also considering ripping out the framing for the door, and replacing it with an exterior door, like the one I'm putting in on the south wall. I would do this by default if the existing door wasn't 24" (I can't get a 24" exterior door), because of the negligible difference in price between the solid pine interior door and the solid core metal exterior door ($116). For the $30 difference, I'm seriously considering ripping out the current one completely and just buying the exterior door to replace it. Any thoughts?

(sorry haven't read all your text, I'm in a hurry so here's a short comment ;) ) That Audimute Peacemaker sheeting looks like a waste 'o money and time. That Auralex stuff, same deal. Add too many of that and you'll end up with a very bass-sounding room. Too much high frq absorption, no low-end. Do you plan to add basstrapping? Haven't checked your design (if there was any).

As far as my tests with the Peacemaker stuff, I've found it's a comparable, lower-cost, and more environmentally friendly version of MLV. I've tested it directly against the MLV, and I've found very similar results. MLV is way more expensive and heavier (thus cost more to ship), and in my experience building a room divider with it (on plywood) I found that it worked almost as well as MLV twice it's thickness. And it's much easier to work with. The fact that it's mostly made of recycled materials is what turned me on to it in the first place, but the price is what brought me back. I didn't get to talking about the bass traps last night, I was tired and needed to go to bed. I have wedge bass traps for all four corners of the room that extend from floor to ceiling. I had considered using the Audimute blankets to build my own absorbers (stretch the blanket over a 2x2 frame, fill cavity with rockwool or cotton batting, and cover with fabric for a finished look). It's been done with much success in the past, but I'm most concerned with sound leakage (neighbors) - so I'm more apt to cover the walls completely with the blankets. And the Auralex-type stuff is just to soften the ceiling, not for major absorption. I was hoping to avoid all the drywall work, but I could always opt to add a second layer of drywall with green glue or Peacemaker or MLV in between the current layer, and then just make absorbers (as described above) with the blankets instead of covering the walls with them. I just want to keep the peace with my neighbors and in my house.

Well you know what the general idea of MLV (Mass Loaded Vinyl, right?) is here on the board... do you? itsa waste 'o money. no (lab) tests on the website? http://www.audimutesoundproofing.com/so ... floor.aspx Those blankets, toss'm. Use wool as it's THE proven product which is much cheaper too.

Wool is a great idea, but I can't wrap my room in it (I guess I could, but that'd be a mess). Remember, I'm not just looking for good acoustics within - I'm looking to keep sound from getting out. And as far as the Peacemaker stuff - I've tested it and liked the results. Ok, so the forum doesn't like MLV, but I've been using MLV to much success in other applications, and again, have been happy with the results. And as far as the blankets go, we've had success with them in the past, building a temporary sound booth on location. As far as a portable solution, they're amazing - some of the best sound blankets on the market. See my previous post about them: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 0120#80120 They will definitely NOT be "tossed." They will be re-purposed, if anything. As I said, they might become part of my built absorbers. So, based on your input, I'm better off doubling my drywall for room isolation and then building bass/freq absorbers for the walls?

JamesCzar wrote:

So, based on your input, I'm better off doubling my drywall for room isolation and then building bass/freq absorbers for the walls?

All in favor of RO say "hot damn"!

"and from my left a hand did raise and a voice did cry Yey" Iain Westland, diary of an idiot, circa just now

So, does that mean you are also suggesting that "I'm better off doubling my drywall for room isolation and then building bass/freq absorbers for the walls?" Or are you just harassing me as well? Wow. So far I've found this forum to be oh, SO welcoming: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 0147#80147

double the dry wall, treble it if you can, the more and heavier it is the quieter your room gets, how near are your neighbors?

JamesCzar wrote:

Wow. So far I've found this forum to be oh, SO welcoming:

This is International. Why do you Americans think you are the only yahoos in an International setting ? Based on the little bit I've seen of ya, you talk too much :) Having a pause gives others that are surely to disagree, the option to. Pause long enough and someone may see it differently. I think RO has expressed that. I know I would if you would be still for a day or three. padded cell has shown some discomfort in your suggestions. Not everyone is going to be in complete agreement...but then again, this website has some of the best brains for these tasks so that is why we stand around and listen. Then try to get better. If your interest is in making a better acoustic environment, you have hit paydirt; the Motherload; The Mother of all;, etc, etc and so on and so forth. But if you want to show others how much information you have collected and how it is right for you and right for everyone else...good luck :)

padded cell wrote:

double the dry wall, treble it if you can, the more and heavier it is the quieter your room gets, how near are your neighbors?

That's the first real usable advice I've gotten on this forum, and it came from the guy with 24 posts. Thanks Cell! Well, I was trying to avoid the drywall doubling, but it may have to be my big change to the original plan. Then I'll just build some strategic absorbers/traps for the walls. As I said before, I can re-purpose the blankets. I have some plans for wall panels from another guy who did this before (and they worked great), which include stretching the blankets over the frame, filling it with fibreglass or rockwool, and covering it with fabric. Work well for a variety of frequencies. Alternating those panels with a more solid, reflective panel like Ethan suggests, might be the trick. The nearest neighbors are 50ft away to the west (back of the house), as described above. They're my biggest concern, but in general, we have a very friendly, relaxed neighborhood, and I don't want to be "that guy." As far as the ceiling, what I might not have made clear earlier was that I'm going to put fibreglass batting above the drop ceiling like Ethan suggests in his bit on optimizing a drop ceiling installation. So between the ceiling and the double drywall walls, I might have a pretty sealed room. Hopefully.

JamesCzar wrote:

That's the first real usable advice I've gotten on this forum, and it came from the guy with 24 posts. Thanks Cell!

Technically it came from RO. If your interest is in acoustics your in the wrong section of this forum anyway.

have you read through this lot yet WOW!! BRILLIANT READING :D and might have a good few pointers you could use, i know i have stored a fair few Iain

xSpace wrote:

Technically it came from RO.

yep, tis true, i is a font of other peoples knowledge :D there are a lot of very very good brains here, pick them and ignore the bits you cant afford, but try to get as near as you can

xSpace wrote:

This is International. Why do you Americans think you are the only yahoos in an International setting ? If your interest is in making a better acoustic environment, you have hit paydirt; the Motherload; The Mother of all;, etc, etc and so on and so forth. But if you want to show others how much information you have collected and how it is right for you and right for everyone else...good luck :)

First of all, I NEVER made any mention of Americans vs. non-Americans. Where did that come from? And secondly, I got farther with the guy with 24 posts than the "Senior Member" who told me to throw away everything I've already invested money in. As I have said, I have a limited budget, and I'm trying to utilize as much of the materials I already have on hand or can get locally or cheaply (shipping many heavy materials, as you know, is almost as expensive as the materials). Instead of poo-pooing everything I'm proposing, why not offer constructive criticism. Like, "well, instead of using this item like this, why not try using it like that." I've already come to the conclusion that I have to seriously consider whether I have the time and budget to double drywall the room. That's a step forward. But, "that stuff you've already got that I've never worked with, that sucks, throw it away." Yeah, that helps. Maybe I "talk too much" but every other post on here that doesn't give enough information is ignored and referred to the stickies.

to those that much is given, much is expected...

xSpace wrote:

Technically it came from RO. If your interest is in acoustics your in the wrong section of this forum anyway.

Actually, it didn't come from RO. Look back. He just told me how everything I already have and have used in the past is crap. Padded Cell was the one who agreed with the double drywall. And, I'm not here asking about acoustics. I posted here to share my experiences during my build, which, for the most part, I'd already planned out, based on reading this forum, and Ethan's page, as well as several others. This whole discussion on the walls of my room was started by RO stating that my materials are crap. I've read all the "rules for posting." Is there some super-secret set of rules I don't know about that has exact parameters as to what each and every kind of post and thread should be about and what they should contain? This seems like the most uptight forum I've ever been on.

Are you asking a question? I am not sure if you are asking a question....I have not read your book so I do not know if you have a question? Or is it that you are building something and want to show it and your progress off? Is the question about isolation? Or as it could have been referred to as, soundproofing? Mass is the only way to achieve isolation and I am not talking the Catholic kind. Heavy materials in the concrete range to multiple layers of sheetrock range. But it is still only a simple answer because I do not have a question that I can answer with my limited skill sets. Once mass is obtained, then move into the air. Now you have mass air. If you add more mass you can get the final side of this three piece action figure. Mass-air-mass. Doesn't matter how you get it, as long as you get it. MLV as an addition or main part of establishing mass-air-mass costs too much and is too exacting to install for the little that it returns. BUT, if you already have it, by all means, use it ;) More mass is better. More mass is cost effective. Too be fair, RO said "you must be a TOOL FAN" but you, not having the ability to slow down and give HIM the benefit of doubt; because you were so wrapped up in YOU, did not have the time available and simple reasoning that a friend would give a friend, and ASSUMED he was calling you names. He was not, as best as I can tell he WILL not, and that is the way that is. You have entered a room running and screaming and waving your arms....you tell me what I am to expect of you?

xSpace wrote:

Are you asking a question? I am not sure if you are asking a question....I have not read your book so I do not know if you have a question?

My book? Wow, that's mature. So I was wordy in my construction diary. I thought that was the point. To SHARE your experiences. I'm beginning to be very sorry I bothered to share anything.

xSpace wrote:

Or is it that you are building something and want to show it and your progress off?

As is explained in the very first post of this thread, my construction diary is there to share my experiences. (If you would have read it you'd know that. I'm expected to read pages and pages of rules before I post anything, and I did, and thus my own thread was wordy and information-filled.) If people want to comment on my design, progress, the techniques I'm using, or my materials, that is appreciated. Though I'd expect CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, not "your stuff is crap, throw it away."

xSpace wrote:

Is the question about isolation? Or as it could have been referred to as, soundproofing? Mass is the only way to achieve isolation and I am not talking the Catholic kind. Heavy materials in the concrete range to multiple layers of sheetrock range. But it is still only a simple answer because I do not have a question that I can answer with my limited skill sets. Once mass is obtained, then move into the air. Now you have mass air. If you add more mass you can get the final side of this three piece action figure. Mass-air-mass. Doesn't matter how you get it, as long as you get it.

Sounds great. I've already figured that out, but I had limited time, budget, and really didn't want to do anymore drywall. But I'm changing my tune and considering doing another layer. See? This is the kind of constructive criticism that is useful.

xSpace wrote:

MLV as an addition or main part of establishing mass-air-mass costs too much and is too exacting to install for the little that it returns. BUT, if you already have it, by all means, use it ;)

Yes, if you already have it - which is indicated in my posts above and in the pictures - use it. So it may not be the greatest invention known to man, but in my experience it works fairly well if used properly.

xSpace wrote:

Too be fair, RO said "you must be a TOOL FAN" but you, not having the ability to slow down and give HIM the benefit of doubt; because you were so wrapped up in YOU, did not have the time available and simple reasoning that a friend would give a friend, and ASSUMED he was calling you names. He was not, as best as I can tell he WILL not, and that is the way that is.

So, I am supposed to wait around for him or someone else to "interpret" his post for me? Even if he did mean to say Tool FAN (which he didn't in the original post), what does that MEAN? Is that good? Is that bad? What is cause for that assumption anyway?

xSpace wrote:

You have entered a room running and screaming and waving your arms....you tell me what I am to expect of you?

DO NOT TRY TO REFRAME THE PARAMETERS OF THIS ISSUE. Look at the very first posts I made in this forum. I started with a simple question in some else's thread, about my personal - and similar - decisions about what to about a concrete floor. I also commented in two other threads as to my experiences using Audimute blankets, thus sharing information, and not putting anyone else's ideas down. I then proceeded to share my construction experiences in MY OWN thread. That is it. And the response by a SENIOR MEMBER was to accuse me of hijacking threads?!! Because I asked one question and commented on two others??!! That same SENIOR MEMBER proceeded to then comment on my construction thread that my materials were crap and that they should be thrown away. I responded by asking how it was that I hijacked threads and how I should properly reply to threads in this forum. I also defended my materials choice and my plan to use that which I had already purchased. Am I screaming now? Maybe, but that's only because I came into the room with a soft voice, simple questions and comments, and have been treated like crap from SENIOR MEMBERS of this forum since then.

I'm oh, so glad that my own construction thread has devolved into me defending myself against attacks from two senior forum members. Great. That's exactly what I came here for.