New studio/set of rehearsal rooms based in Sheffield, UK!

Hi guys, I was recommended this site from a friend whose just built his own studio in london and it's been extremely informative and useful. I'm a sound engineer myself and will be working at a brand new studio and set of rehearsal rooms in Sheffield in the UK. I however am a complete noob when it comes to sound proofing and acoustical treatment so I've come here to see if anyone can help us out! The building for the studio is presently ongoing and the owner has just finished building the main structural walls of our design (it was a huge space before so we had a blank canvas to work with.) There's going to be a live room and control room along with 4 practice rooms, a reception, a kitchen and a toilet. All the structural walls have been built using concrete breezeblocks that are 8 and a 1/2 inches thick and right now all these walls are getting covered with plasterboard. Here are some pictures I knocked up on sketchup showing all the accurate measurements of the rooms; Live Room Control room As you can see from these pictures they aren't going to be the biggest live/control rooms that a lot of you may be used to or recommend but it was the largest we could make them in order to utilise the space for what we wanted. My questions are; What shape would you recommend for the control room to acheive optimum acoustical treatment for mixing? It's not a very large control room so is there any major Do's and Don'ts we should know about? There's also the dip on the left hand side of the control room that I'm worried about bass frequencies building up... Is there somewhere I can find out about building DIY diffusers and bass traps? Are their measurements specific to room size or a general standard? On the thomann website you can get a pack to acoutically treat a control room but it's 500 pounds so I think the DIY method would suit us more! For the door through to the live room we were going to use a heavy duty fire door, though from looking at a lot of other peoples designs they use patio sliding doors - why are they preferred? What shape would you recommend for the live room so we get optimum sound quality during recording? We wanted to build a vocal booth and two guitar amp booths within the live room for sound isolation, which would be built on the right hand side of the room - is there a different position in the live room that would be better? What cheaper DIY options can be used inside these booths to isolate and deaden the sound? As shown in the pictures above theres a big structural pillar that goes through into the control room (this was part of the building when we acquired it) how would you work around it in terms of acoustically treating the room? Or is it not a major issue? Here's my sketch up of two of the rehearsal rooms; Practice rooms The 1st practice room is bang next to the control room so there's going to be sound leaking issues when bands are practicing and we're trying to mix or record! I've read through other posts about sound proofing and materials/techniques but there's a lot of terminology and jargon I'm not familiar with. If anyone could help explain how to sound proof the practice rooms or give a link to where i can read about an affordable method, that would be amazing. Bearing in mind that it doesn't have to be completely sound proof, just enough so that other bands aren't disturbed by one another and neither are we. Is there any techniques/materials that would not reduce the size of the practice rooms too greatly either? Or will they generally be more expensive methods? I've also attached the sketchup file of the entire studios design if anyone want's to look at it for a closer look or to help recommend any designs etc. that would be great. I've only learned how to use this program today so sorry if my design isn't up to the usual standard! I'm going to take some photos of the studio tomorrow so I'll upload them asap so you guys can see the real thing, if I've missed out any details please just ask me. I'm certain there's a few other things I will have forgotten to ask or mention so I'll try and jot my brain when I upload the photos. I look forward to hearing from you guys, any help is much appreciated! Thanks, Abdullah.

Hey, has nobody got any advice at all?? I know it's my first post but I'm sure I followed the forum rules... Please don't be afraid to slate the design etc because we're complete beginners to the construction side of things! I've been reading through a lot of threads and now understand it's best to have a two leaf system.. so with the concrete walls that are in place (that are now covered in plaster board) would I have studs on the plaster board, which I believe can be a timber frame then filled with insulation such as acdoustic mineral wool - Air gap - timber studs filled with insulation and then plasterboard? How large would you recommend the air gap has to be? and what about the general width of the studs? Hope to hear from anyone, if i'm not making sense or not understanding the two leaf system a link to a clearer explanation would be great. Will upload photo's by tomorrow! Abdullah

Hey Abdullah. As to the shape of your control room, symmetrical is what is recommended around here. Tracking rooms typically are designed with asymmetry in mind. When it comes to DIY basstraps, panels and the like, these guys here got it happening with pix! Go to the top post secton of the forum and you should locate several links for DIY acoustic items. Room size is commonly mentioned in terms of volume when a good size is sought for. But dang if I can remember if 1500 cubic feet was on the list or did it start at 2500 cubic feet? Usually this would be a room with ceilings taller then the average home might have. "On the thomann website you can get a pack to acoutically treat a control room but it's 500 pounds so I think the DIY method would suit us more!" /quote From what I read here, I agree. No one knows that room until it is built. I'm not trashing anyones products but until you have your walls, ceilings and all of the build together, well, its just putting the horse before the cart. Good luck ;)

The plasterboard onto the block walls will create a 'coupled' 2 leaf system. Not great. :( It will either be fixed to battens, or dot n dabbed to the wall (effectively glued) It would be better to render straight onto the blocks (hardwall, not costly finish coat) and then build seperate timber stud frames and fix the plasterboard to this. However if you've already shelled out loads of dosh and the work is complete then you'll just have to work with it. Is the wall made from 2 layers of solid blocks, or the hollowcore ones? With any luck it won't be standard UK cavity construction :( Patio doors are used for light, and visual communication, but as you seem to already have a window between control/live, then fire door will be better. You don't seem to have any seperation between these 2 rooms though, which means 2 walls 'not touching' and 2 seperate panes of thick glass (not any old double glazed unit) that includes using 2 fire doors back to back instead of just one. Ultimately though, soundproofing between rooms may or may not be as important as soundproofing to the outside world. Depends on your requirements/neighbours.

Is this Abdullah from Power Corrupts/Black Bats by any chance?

You can use that small space on the CR for a vocal booth and have your problem solved in terms of symmetry in the room. That CR seems such a tiny space that creating a new plaster walls doesn't make sense (unless sound insulation is a problem).

Hey guys, been away in wales since last wednesday which is why i haven't been replying... Thanks to xspace, deluks and andrebrito for the advice and hi to philR - it is the same Abdullah from power corrupts. Checked out the stuck on a name website and your new studio as well as equipment spec is looking amazing! Good luck with that. Andrebrito - The CR is a small space but we wanted to utilise the space to fit as many practice rooms along with the studio to conincide with the original buildings structure. The owner has covered the walls in plasterboard to start sound proofing it (he doesn't have any prior knowledge on the subject) and because there's a practice room right next to the CR we need to reduce as much sound spillage from there as possible. Have you got any other suggestions for how we approach this? Never thought about have a vocal booth in the small space of the CR but this like you said could solve the symmetry issues. Deluks - The walls are made of one layer of solid concrete breezeblocks that are 8 and a half inchs wide. I'm really not sure if they're standard UK cavity construction but I'll take a photo of them to post up and you can let me know. So do you suggest it would be better to plaster the breeze blocks, fix studs and insulation to that layer and then the plaster board on to the studs? Would that be one leaf of the two leaf system effectively? I can't seem to find any info on 'coupled' 2 leaf systems, are they generally worse in terms of acoustics or sound proofing? For the window between the CR/Live Room we planned to use two seperate thick panes of glass but the fact that it's one concrete wall between the two rooms, will this make sound proofing much harder?

Ok here's a few pictures I took today, this shows the construction that has taken place at the studio so far; From the live room looking into the control room From the control room looking into the live room Facing the gap in the bottom left of the control rom Would the general consensus be to make this a vocal booth? Or has anyone got any other ideas what this space could become in order to make the control room symmetrical? Here's a picture showing a side view of the concrete structural wall and the plasterboard; From this picture what layers would you guys recommend we add to soundproof the walls better? Bearing in mind we haven't got tons of money and it doesn't have to be completely soundproof, just enough so that bands aren't distrubed from one another when they practice... And deluks, here's a picture of the concrete brezeblocks - are they standard UK cavity construction ones? Or are these adequate enough for the job? <br>More pics up as we progress, cheers for your help!

Hey, are the practice rooms already built? What is your main source of income the recordings or the practice rooms? Is there a possibility to lose some of the walls and 1 of the rooms to make the control room bigger? It's a horrible shape. I'd spin the CR and move the door

Those blocks, are they heavy to pick up or can you lift them with one hand? They look like solid concrete heavy ones, which is good. When I mentioned cavity walls, I meant do the exterior walls have a slight gap between an inner and outer wall, like in the very last pic on this page... http://www.brickworkandpointing.co.uk/page/photos.php ...or is is just solid all the way through? By looks of it, the blocks have been laid on their side (flat side down) If this is the case then treat this as 1 leaf, and add a timber frame that doesn't touch this outer wall to attach plasterboard to. For your second (and final) leaf. If you intend using 2 seperate panes of glass, then each pane will need it's own seperate wall, otherwise there's not much point. The seperate wall could be made from timber studwork with plasterboard affixed. You don't seem to have grasped the basics of decoupling. Have you read all of the stickies?

Hey, Lilith Envy - All the structural walls you see on the sketchup are aleady built. When we first open the practice rooms will definitely be the main source of income, we already know a band who will take one permanently which leaves us with 3 to hire out to the general public. Hopefully over time we will build the studio until it's busy enough to become our main source of income. So unfortunately we have to deal with the building as it is, thanks for your altered sketch though - in an ideal world it would be a better modification but I don't think we can afford to regress now. Granted the CR is small and a horrible shape but once made symmetrical with a vocal booth and acoustically treated you don't think it would be good enough for professional mixes? Deluks - I understand what you mean now about cavity blocks, they are def solid concrete ones and very heavy to pick up. Would struggle a lot to lift with one hand! The blocks have been laid flat down for all of the walls too, thanks for your advice with making it a 2 leaf wall. I'll look through the stickies to understand decoupling more as well. Cheers guys, any further opinions or advice would be great!

DarkStorm wrote:

I'll look through the stickies to understand decoupling more as well.

In the brickwork example given above there is a clear example of coupling. Looking at the inside of the outer most brick wall you can see what looks like "tabs" spaced every 5th row at 3 or 4 brick intervals. This brick tie is common in a structure that has no other framework but the brick. It looks like mass air mass, but if any vibration comes along that can move the one side, it in turn by this coupling will move the other side. Just as another example.

Thanks xspace... As we're going to to be building the studs for our second leaf very soon I have a quick question - Should we place sticky backed neoprene along the side of the studs where we'll fix the plasterboard onto? And just to clarify is having OUTER WALL (216mm concrete) - PLASTERBOARD (12.5mm) - AIR GAP (5 CM) - STUDS with 10 cm ROCKWOOL (with neoprene on the outer layer) - PLASTERBOARD (12.5 cm) going to be effective? Or would it be better to have an extra layer of plasterboard on the left side of the studs too? Sorry if I keep repeating myself but we really want to get this right and from looking through a lot of posts there doesn't seem to be a clear specific method for the walls...

DarkStorm wrote:

Should we place sticky backed neoprene along the side of the studs where we'll fix the plasterboard onto?

No.

AVare wrote:

DarkStorm wrote:

Should we place sticky backed neoprene along the side of the studs where we'll fix the plasterboard onto?

No.

Funny, I just looked at *this* recent build....

DarkStorm wrote:

Hey guys, been away in wales since last wednesday which is why i haven't been replying... Thanks to xspace, deluks and andrebrito for the advice and hi to philR - it is the same Abdullah from power corrupts. Checked out the stuck on a name website and your new studio as well as equipment spec is looking amazing! Good luck with that.

Cheers dude. We just bought a Diezel VH-4 as well so I think we're gonna be pimping our gear list online soon. :D Good luck with your studio, we might even be moving ours again before long.

DarkStorm wrote:

OUTER WALL (216mm concrete) - PLASTERBOARD (12.5mm) - AIR GAP (5 CM) - STUDS with 10 cm ROCKWOOL (with neoprene on the outer layer) - PLASTERBOARD (12.5 cm) going to be effective?

It depends on how the plasterboard is attached to the outer block. It was already mentioned by Deluks. It reads that the plasterboard was already installed by others?

Ro wrote:

AVare wrote:

DarkStorm wrote:

Should we place sticky backed neoprene along the side of the studs where we'll fix the plasterboard onto?

No.

Funny, I just looked at *this* recent build....

What is your point? That is not the first time someone has does done something that is of not value acoustically. At least it isn't disastrous, like most attempts at floating floors. Andre

The point is that is was a very (as in:parallel in time as this topic) recent topic. It's just "funny" :)

xSpace wrote:

DarkStorm wrote:

OUTER WALL (216mm concrete) - PLASTERBOARD (12.5mm) - AIR GAP (5 CM) - STUDS with 10 cm ROCKWOOL (with neoprene on the outer layer) - PLASTERBOARD (12.5 cm) going to be effective?

It depends on how the plasterboard is attached to the outer block. It was already mentioned by Deluks. It reads that the plasterboard was already installed by others?

The owner installed the plasterboard himself, i'm assuming he used a cement like mixture to attach it to the walls. I know that doesn't sound very technical (i don't know a great deal about building and DIY jargon) but you can see a side shot of how the plasterboard is attached here; Do you think that's enough for one side of our leaf? Then as i mentioned before having the air gap then stud frame filled with insulation then plasterboard going to be effective sound proofing? Really need to know because although i understand the 2 leaf system I can't find any posts about how to effectively build the 2 leaf wall correctly and also anything about decoupling, so if anyone could spell it out to this idiot that would be amazing! We've also come accross another problem - the ceiling. We need to prevent as much sound spillage through the ceiling as possible, any ideas or links how to go about this? I'll post some more photo's very soon. Cheers guys

DarkStorm wrote:

Do you think that's enough for one side of our leaf? Then as i mentioned before having the air gap then stud frame filled with insulation then plasterboard going to be effective sound proofing? Really need to know because although i understand the 2 leaf system I can't find any posts about how to effectively build the 2 leaf wall correctly and also anything about decoupling, so if anyone could spell it out to this idiot that would be amazing! We've also come accross another problem - the ceiling. We need to prevent as much sound spillage through the ceiling as possible, any ideas or links how to go about this? I'll post some more photo's very soon. Cheers guys

Hi Abdullah. Did you get Rod's book? It explains both wall and ceiling construction quite well, I think. There are also numerous posts right here on how to do it right. I found them quite easily, just by reading through a few dozen threads, especially the "stickies".

DarkStorm wrote:

We've also come accross another problem - the ceiling. We need to prevent as much sound spillage through the ceiling as possible, any ideas or links how to go about this? I'll post some more photo's very soon. Cheers guys

Read crams build thread, he has been where you are going: Cram's Basement Jam Room

Thanks for the link xspace, I've just got rod gervais's book through and that has been very useful in explaining a lot of construction methods i wasn't sure about. The one thing I'm unsure of (which I can't find in rods book) is how big should the air gap be between the two walls of the two leaf system?? We'd like to save on space so what's the smallest the air gap can be while still being effective? Thanks, Abdullah

The one thing I'm unsure of (which I can't find in rods book) is how big should the air gap be between the two walls of the two leaf system?? We'd like to save on space so what's the smallest the air gap can be while still being effective?

According to a rather old (but very valid) technical paper on acoustics, when using drywall for your mass, the optimum total thickness for the entire wall is 11.5 inches, with the mass being equally divided between the two leaves. However, even a couple of inches of airspace is good, and from about 4 or 5 inches upwards you are not really gaining an awful lot more. If you have the space, then shoot for 11.5 inches, but if not, then just go for as much separation as you can. The air gap is important, but much more important is the total amount of mass, and also the amount of insulation in the air gap. If you have plenty of time and really want to understand the technical issues in optimum wall design, here is a link to the paper: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ight=paper

Soundman2020 wrote:

and also the amount of insulation in the air gap.

He has an existing rendered block wall. How does what you said apply to that?