Third leaf or not?

I'm starting a new thread for this question as i have two in the pipe on my original thread and no answers. This is very serious and any help would be greatly appreciated. The building inspector came by today for the framing inspection and instructed me to ad a fire stop in a place where i think it constitutes a third leaf. It's basically a continuance of the ceiling i'm going to put up only it's beyond the wall i framed. Help!!! Heres a drawing of it. My original thread: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... c&start=75

No.

:) Thanks AVare!!!

Respectfully I have to disagree - it certainly is a 3rd leaf....... Sound passage through the wall - then through that member and further through the floor above or out to exit the building will have definately traveled through 3 leafs. BUT - it is one of those 3rd leafs that you have no choice but to install - so therefor you do it and live with it. The fire blocking in that location is a required part of construction - and to not have it could have deadly results. Sincerely, Rod

rod gervais wrote:

Respectfully I have to disagree - it certainly is a 3rd leaf....

Thanks Rod. I looked and looked at the drawing and was certain it was not a third leaf. After reading reading your post, when I look at the firestop, there is no way I do not see a third leaf.

BUT - it is one of those 3rd leafs that you have no choice but to install - so therefor you do it and live with it. The fire blocking in that location is a required part of construction - and to not have it could have deadly results.

I wonder if this is an instance of working with the inspector before hand and presenting the research NRC results on insulation filled cavities might have removed this requirement. Andre

Thanks guys... I thought it was a third leaf (hence the hysterical post) but i'm not sure the actual TL impact. He didn't say anything about caulk or any thing like that but i went ahead and caulked it any way. Is there anything i can do that will better the situation? there is one seam yet to be caulked if i leave it un-caulked it will behave differently wouldn't it? This fire stop we are discussing is horizontal, he also instructed i install a vertical one to break the dead air space which is longer than 10'. AVare: after he left i thought to myself i should have offered to put R30 in that cavity, which i was contemplating any way. But this guy just makes me wanna go into a fetal position. 8) Check out my HVAC final draft guys... I need your feedback before i instal it. http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... c&start=75 Cheers!

Do what the instructor says, this is for fire protection issues.

But, as Andre opted, won't stuffing it with wool do ?

That's what i thought Ro... If this inspector was a little cooler it might fly but he's very curt.. I don't know, I've installed it already and i'll try to make the case monday. Also keep in mind this guy is not on the cutting edge of technology... I think he's going to be retired soon.

At the top of the wall you ar dealing with fire plus hot gasses - and just stuffing with mineral wool will not stop the passage of hot gasses - that's why the need for the caulk. And you have to do that (by code) at each and every penetration made in a vertical manner - so if a single wire passes up the wall and through the top plate - it is supposed to be fire caulked. The code requirement for every 10 feeet of wal l(plus corners and intersections) has to d with draft stopping - not fire stopping - and mineral woll stuffed into the cavity is a perfectly acceptable manner in which to handle that - Sincerely, Rod

Ro wrote:

But, as Andre opted, won't stuffing it with wool do ?

Mine was a question of hindsight. Not a suggestion for now. Andre

Eran wrote:

Also keep in mind this guy is not on the cutting edge of technology...

His primary concern, at that junction, was not technology it is fire. Any opening between floor levels if occupied or not, will require the installation of an acceptable fire rated material and all cracks or similar caulk able penetrations will be caulked with fire rated caulking. If you look at that area again Eran and imagine how fire would have flamed into the upped level wall with nothing in the way to stop it, you may think to thank the man for his understanding of your situation.

The work that I am referring to by the NRC is summarized in CTU-16. Whether it is value to review with the inspector I do not know. Andre

Thanks for the link. That is good information to consider. The IRC report shows framing of typical modern platform framing, e.g. double top plate and sole/bottom plate at floor/ceiling levels. Erans structure uses framing methods from many decades ago that has long since been outlawed(edit: in USofA) due to the fact that they did not include top or bottom plates. The omission of these framing members creates vertical openings in the stud bays. http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... c&start=15 I thought we tried to talk him into blocking those holes up ;)

xSpace wrote:

TI thought we tried to talk him into blocking those holes up ;)

You did on July 2. Andre

O.k AVare and xSpace. I most humbly not only thanked xSpace for saving my ass by noticing the gaps but also went ahead and sealed them as instructed! In any case the gaps are between the first floor and sec and the fire stop in discussion is between basement and first floor. Furthermore xSpace said:

His primary concern, at that junction, was not technology it is fire. Any opening between floor levels if occupied or not, will require the installation of an acceptable fire rated material and all cracks or similar caulk able penetrations will be caulked with fire rated caulking. If you look at that area again Eran and imagine how fire would have flamed into the upped level wall with nothing in the way to stop it, you may think to thank the man for his understanding of your situation.

The point i was trying to make is that this guy is not in an intellectually inquisitive state of mind. He doesn't care! To the point, So what about my PVC conduit penetrating between the basement and first floor? Look at my pictures, the entire water heater room sits under the same sub floor. Why don't i need fire stop over there? I'm also going to put holes in the floor for ventilation ducts... :? http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... c&start=60

I count myself thankful to be able to have input here and am not guided by collection of "atta boys" or gain in any form. Like it is said, a whole basket of "atta boys" can be wiped out by one aw shit ;) "in any case the gaps are between the first floor and sec and the fire stop in discussion is between basement and first floor. " /quote Same thing only on a lower floor?

xSpace, No, there are no gaps like that between the basement and first floor. I'll put some pics up a little later. Did you get a chance to look at the other vertical penetrations i mentioned? I'm concerned, and need feedback before i proceed. I'm going to be installing insulation today so i really need to know where to ad fire stop if required. I'll repost pics of that as well. Thanks all!

Eran wrote:

In any case the gaps are between the first floor and sec and the fire stop in discussion is between basement and first floor.

The location is not relevant - only the requirement to create the fire stop.

So what about my PVC conduit penetrating between the basement and first floor? Look at my pictures, the entire water heater room sits under the same sub floor. Why don't i need fire stop over there?

If it's existing - then it is existing non-conforming - and he can not make you meet the new code requirements - hence he ignores it - it is only the NEW WORK you are doing that has to meet the code. If it is new work - then it needs to be fire caulked as well around the penetrations - and he must have missed it.

I'm also going to put holes in the floor for ventilation ducts...?

Typically the fire blocking for these is done with bent metal clips made out of the same material as the duct. Rod

Thanks Rod! That's very helpful. Just to clarify, I need to caulk around a penetration but the penetration it self is fine.. I'm confused. Some pics. I'll have more a little later. Sealed gaps between 1st and 2nd floor

PVC conduit penetrations.

Fire stop Pics. Horizontal and vertical.