Before i go Building.

Hi Everybody, Just another studio building soul. I've spent a lot of time reading this forum and other resources and i now feel like I'm ready to detail my plan here for you all to bite on. Any and all input would be greatly appreciated. I live in NJ USA bergen county. I just bought a two family house and occupy the first floor, i have one room allocated for the studio build and the basement. The basement is no good, the ceiling is too low to even record vocals comfortably so i decided to put a control room on the first floor with a vocal booth and have a live room in the basement for my guitar amps and a drum fetish. I like big room drum sound so i'm not holding my breath. The CR space is 17'3"Lx9'6"Wx8'H and i was all ready told i should not split it but i need a booth so i decided to split it at 4'1". I demolished the room and now have all the wall studs and ceiling joists exposed. We have two external walls with windows and two internal walls. I can't really change the outer walls on any of them so i'm left with one side consideration on all the walls accept for the one dividing the room into CR/Booth. Wall construction: Insulation between studs, iso clips with hat channel, two layers of 5/8 gypsum with green glue, caulk, tape, mud, paint, soundboard, wood. I want all the electrical outlets to be surface mounted as i believe the integrity of the gypsum is a priority. Not too concerned with the windows as there are no neighbors close enough to worry about so i'm thinking i just drywall over them. However I am very concerned with the ceiling as i have tenants living upstairs. Hopefully the construction method mentioned will be sufficient as i am not a teenager and don't plan on doing dance remix' with 60HZ BD at 4 am at full volume. I like working at human levels. I'm going to use the same construction in the basement. Basement area to be closed of is 13'Lx8'7"Wx6'5"H It runs perpendicular to the CR right under it. I'm going to run cable from room to room through the floor and also run cable from the booth through the floor. My intention is to carpet the floor and i know that's not much of a treatment but i can't really ad mass to the existing hardwood floors and i have budget issues. HVAC: Ductless mini split A/C, no real fresh air inlet in my plans for now. I don't have enough ceiling space to run ducts. i'm going to use the good old 20min break every two hours or so ventilating system. Questions: 1)What is the final verdict with the electricity wiring? Do i need a sub panel? I have 100amps service to my unit, i'm thinking three new circuits with 20amp breaker each should be enough to run my new TAC scorpion, a computer, some outboard, guitar amps. All lights will run on the existing wires. Basic rig hooked up temporarily in a different room with no noise issues. 2) "Different materials resonate at different frequencies and different width of the same material also resonate at different frequencies" So aren't i better of with two layers of drywall at different widths? or a third layer of 1/2" drywall? or 5/8-1/2-5/8 kind of thing ? 3)

Spevinator wrote: There is no question that mineral type insulation IS required for best sound isolation. rod gervais: Andre, I don't differ from you often - but here I have to. If you check through the IRC publications (for example) you'll find that the best bang for the buck is standard fiberglass insulation - and that it actually outperforms mineral wool in some low frequencies.

This left me speechless! after thinking i need rigid rock wool between studs and going for the roxul stuff that have those great STC numbers i'm stomped... any one? 4) Any comments on the windows i'm going to just disregard? (the windows not the comments :D ) 5) If electrical boxes are surface mounted i'm assuming the cables run through the floor ? other wise it will run between the drywall and floor probably shorting them BBzzzzzz = flanking galore. right? 6) Any ideas about my floor ? 7) I went to the town to get permits and had a bad experience with a fire spitting inspector chief. One of those small people getting all big on your behind... she decided i need zoning considerations ...what ever. before i put a stake through her heart i might just call it a library... seriously, any advice on how to deal with these people? I'll have a leter from them on mon with more details. Here come the pics. Hope this is not too long and thanks to all in advance!

Sketches. Windows are indicated for the benefit of the monster from the building department.

Demolition!

More demo

More...

nifty! demo is always nifty.... :)

nif·ty adj (informal) 1. fashionable and good-looking 2. good, quick, and clever at doing something or using something 3. very good or effective n something clever, neat, or excellent, especially a witticism (informal) Encarta® World English Dictionary © 1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc. Thanks Ro! I had an electrician come in today for a quote. He was experienced with studio wiring and had good ideas for how to surface mount everything. The job discussed: Eliminate existing outlets, reposition three boxes in the basement ceiling, reorganize some of the breakers in the panel to make space, wait for me to finish drywall, comeback and do Three new circuits, run the outlets through the floor and mount on wall, run the lighting fixture and switch on the wall. We also discussed insulated wiring and outlets+the concept that from the street you receive two hot wires and ground, each hot wire is 110v and they are out of faze( not that i know what that means) Any way, connecting to only one of those hot wires is supposedly safer for the equipment cause he mentioned cases where the transformer on the poll gets shot and you suddenly get 220v running to your circuits burning everything. I wish i understood electronics... $1200 was the quote. what do you think ?

Hi Eran, Rod's book details a method for dealing with the ceiling and gives some advice on the electrics etc..., it's really worth buying and from what I see you will need it. It also looks like you'll need to check with a structural engineer before proceeding any further, to get effective isolation you need to add mass to that ceiling and given some of the termite damage you have shown you should have it checked out before adding mass to it. Hope this helps, all the best Clunk

Yuck! Lots of work ahead there my friend! I look at how far you have to go, and just shudder! You say that you bought a two-family house and occupy the first floor... AND that you are planning on renting out the top floor. You will need to reduce sound transmissions to the second floor for sure. This is a lot more work, and will probably require a room-within-a-room design to keep your sound from traveling upstairs. It also works however to keep heavy footfalls/phone rings/dog barks, etc. from leaking into your recordings from the upstairs tenants. This is not trivial!!! Be warned! Sound will leak through the windows, flank through the structure, etc. Even sound in the basement will travel through walls via flanking, through HVAC ducting, through every little nook and cranny, etc. I think you might want to consider going room-within-a-room, and even that will allow some sound to escape. You are going to need more than a beefy ceiling to prevent sound leakage! Beware the walls and flanking!!! Sound will creep EVERYWHERE! I also would put some extra time and energy into the HVAC system. Trust me on this one!!! Nothing worse than a stuffy room to stifle creativity and create tension, even with 20 minute breaks every couple of hours! One other suggestion from my experience: The control room can NEVER BE BIG ENOUGH!!! I knew my CR was going to be small, but by the time I got the room-within-a-room construction done, it had shrunk to a mere 10' 2" X 12' 9". OUCH!!! I have since spent a fortune getting it to sound good. If you need the vocal booth, I understand, but it comes at the price of sacrificing CR space. Plus, a small and cramped vocal booth REALLY SUCKS as well!!! I get claustrophobia in a small vocal booth. Maybe you can design your place so that the vocalist can go in the basement, and you can keep the extra room upstairs for the CR. Makes for easier construction, gives you more room in the CR, gives the vocalist more room in the basement to prevent claustrophobia, AND gives a bit more isolation to the vocal track to keep out stray extraneous noises like dog barks and phone rings. Just a thought! 1) Three 20 amp circuits is MORE THAN ENOUGH, and is probably overkill. Consider a star-grounding system as described in Rod's book. A sub panel is not a bad idea, but check with an electrician. 2) With the drywall, go for the more mass rather than worry about different resonant frequencies. I think if they layers are smashed together as they are with the drywall it becomes less important, but I may be wrong here. I know that I was advised to go with 2 layers of 5/8" rather than one 5/8" and one 1/2". 3) As far as the insulation, I used the pink fluffy stuff between my studs as well,and it seems to be pretty solid and quiet. 4) As I recommend a room-within-a-room design, the windows are going to have to go. Or alternatively, take a look at my build thread at the "ugly window" to see what I did to mine. I basically added another pane of glass to the "inside room" so that I could keep the outside window for some natural light. 5) Surface-mount electronics are fine, but ***I THINK*** you can and should still run the wires through the walls. Check on this with an expert before proceeding!!! Use conduit throughout the build, and just make VERY small holes in the drywall to bring the wires through, then seal those holes tighter than a gnat's behind! You might need to add a junction box behind each wall hole... Remember, "a hole is a hole", whether it is in the drywall or in the floor. Sound will escape through either opening. Get an electrician's help, it is what I did, and I am so glad that I did. 6) Regarding the floor... keep the hardwood, and get some nice rugs to throw down. I would not carpet the entire floor as some reflections are nice. Plus, you can always pull some of the rug back if need some reflections, like with an acoustic guitar for example. 7) Legal issues always suck. Remember, they are underpaid public servants, and they get their joy by being the "big boss". My suggestion: Let them act like the "big boss", and things will go much more smoothly. Best of luck!!! I don't envy you starting out like this! It has been a long, long road for me, and I am very glad to be coming to the end of the line.

Eran wrote:

We also discussed insulated wiring and outlets+the concept that from the street you receive two hot wires and ground, each hot wire is 110v and they are out of faze( not that i know what that means) Any way, connecting to only one of those hot wires is supposedly safer for the equipment cause he mentioned cases where the transformer on the poll gets shot and you suddenly get 220v running to your circuits burning everything. I wish i understood electronics... $1200 was the quote. what do you think ?

Sounds like a smoke screen to me. What do you care if a transformer blows or not...it doesn't change the way your house is going to be wired? I'd get another opinion. You already have an existing meter box for your rental apartment and one for your home area right? A 100 amp service is going to be crowed just from the house. If you add 60amps worth of other stuff...now your over 100 amps. Now you are not code compliant and if you do it anyway...in threat of overheating that 100amp box. A happy home owner with a 200 amp service, Brien

Eran wrote:

We also discussed insulated wiring and outlets+the concept that from the street you receive two hot wires and ground, each hot wire is 110v and they are out of faze( not that i know what that means) Any way, connecting to only one of those hot wires is supposedly safer for the equipment cause he mentioned cases where the transformer on the poll gets shot and you suddenly get 220v running to your circuits burning everything. I wish i understood electronics...

Run away from this away from this person. Andre

Hey Clunk, Thanks for posting! O.k so i took the plunge and ordered Rod's book, we'll see how my ceiling design will change. As far as structural engineers go i'm not sure i can afford one and an extension of that termite damage was inspected by the home inspector prior to buying the place. Also that wall is a non wight bearing wall. I intent to reinforce that stud anyway. Doublehelix, Welcome!

You say that you bought a two-family house and occupy the first floor... AND that you are planning on renting out the top floor. You will need to reduce sound transmissions to the second floor for sure. This is a lot more work, and will probably require a room-within-a-room design to keep your sound from traveling upstairs. It also works however to keep heavy footfalls/phone rings/dog barks, etc. from leaking into your recordings from the upstairs tenants. This is not trivial!!!

Understood! Not trivial at all. The place is already rented. Nice people from Sri Lanka. My wife is from India so there is good communication there and in my experience that goes further than any building technique. Other wise my construction involves Decoupling at every possible joint. The floor is the only issue really, no? Building a room inside a room will give me triple and quadruple leaf walls. from what i've read so far i understand i'm better of with decoupling and insulation/airspace/mass. In any case there is simply not enough space for it.

The control room can NEVER BE BIG ENOUGH!!! I knew my CR was going to be small, but by the time I got the room-within-a-room construction done, it had shrunk to a mere 10' 2" X 12' 9". OUCH!!! I have since spent a fortune getting it to sound good. If you need the vocal booth, I understand, but it comes at the price of sacrificing CR space. Plus, a small and cramped vocal booth REALLY SUCKS as well!!! I get claustrophobia in a small vocal booth. Maybe you can design your place so that the vocalist can go in the basement, and you can keep the extra room upstairs for the CR. Makes for easier construction, gives you more room in the CR, gives the vocalist more room in the basement to prevent claustrophobia,

My basement ceiling is too low 6'5". I have no choice here. Got to work with what i have and i'm not recording vocals with no isolation. I do agree you can never have enough CR space. Although it strikes me that smaller rooms might have less low end issues cause they are just too small...Not sure.

As I recommend a room-within-a-room design, the windows are going to have to go. Or alternatively, take a look at my build thread at the "ugly window" to see what I did to mine. I basically added another pane of glass to the "inside room" so that I could keep the outside window for some natural light.

According to my design the windows are going.

5) Surface-mount electronics are fine, but ***I THINK*** you can and should still run the wires through the walls. Check on this with an expert before proceeding!!! Use conduit throughout the build, and just make VERY small holes in the drywall to bring the wires through, then seal those holes tighter than a gnat's behind! You might need to add a junction box behind each wall hole... Remember, "a hole is a hole", whether it is in the drywall or in the floor. Sound will escape through either opening. Get an electrician's help, it is what I did, and I am so glad that I did. 6) Regarding the floor... keep the hardwood, and get some nice rugs to throw down. I would not carpet the entire floor as some reflections are nice. Plus, you can always pull some of the rug back if need some reflections, like with an acoustic guitar for example.

I'm trying to digest the "a hole is a hole" statement... floor or walls... thank you for that! I think we need more input on this...

Legal issues always suck. Remember, they are underpaid public servants, and they get their joy by being the "big boss". My suggestion: Let them act like the "big boss", and things will go much more smoothly.

Absolutely agree with you on this. Thanks for being involved man, this conversation is so good for me. Hey Xspace, Thanks for posting!

Sounds like a smoke screen to me. What do you care if a transformer blows or not...it doesn't change the way your house is going to be wired? I'd get another opinion. You already have an existing meter box for your rental apartment and one for your home area right? A 100 amp service is going to be crowed just from the house. If you add 60amps worth of other stuff...now your over 100 amps. Now you are not code compliant and if you do it anyway...in threat of overheating that 100amp box.

I should clarify: 1) I have 100amp service per unit. 2) I was the one who brought up the whole "out of faze" conversation, he was just reacting to it. 3)I have to be code compliant, this is a two family house. All electricity work is to be done by a certified electrician. Other wise i'll have insurance issues. Also, i'm not sure how i would add 60Amps worth of stuff in a music studio. I was trying to calculate how much power the studio will draw so for example: I have a VOX AC 15 guitar amp (fantastic amp BTW very recommended but you have to get the blue bulldog speaker version otherwise it sounds like shite) The label on the back reads as follows: 120V-60HZ 100Watts Output 15Watts RMS 8 Ohms . So as far as i know 100W/120V=0.83amp Right? Once again thanks a lot to everyone. Eran

Hey AVare, Thanks for posting! Wow.. I can't believe the kind of reaction my electrician is getting. Please confirm that you saw my clarifications:

I should clarify: 1) I have 100amp service per unit. 2) I was the one who brought up the whole "out of faze" conversation, he was just reacting to it.

So i'm not understanding what i am running from. If you could please elaborate. I just have to say the general level of most professionals i met so far is astonishingly low and i just can't get a straight answer. Oh well i guess it doesn't take 10 years of everyday study and practice to make an electrician. And he wants $1200 for a day and a half of work. :evil:

[quote="Eran ] Questions: ... i'm thinking three new circuits with 20amp breaker each .... [/quote] Three new circuits w/ 20amp breaker=60 amps Looking at Ceiling-joists.jpg: See how that was built? Wall framing, joists installed with upper walls attached to joists? As you can also see, the insulation from the upstairs is visible. This is an open access area that sound can move between the two units that needs attention before your ceiling of any kind, is tended to. Maybe just blocked off with a material of the same dimensions as the upper wall plate ?

What is scary is the electrician talking about only one line to equipment. ALL home stuff has only one line. If the pole transformers blows, there will be no power, and if there is a peak of 220, that is what fuses and circuit breakers are for. Andre

Hey Xspace, Three new circuits of 20 amps is just a capability, not an indication of how much equipment i'm actually going to have plugged in. Doublehelix also indicated it was overkill...

Looking at Ceiling-joists.jpg: See how that was built? Wall framing, joists installed with upper walls attached to joists?

I see. what is your concern?

As you can also see, the insulation from the upstairs is visible. This is an open access area that sound can move between the two units that needs attention before your ceiling of any kind, is tended to.

I was just going to stuff it with pink stuff but you make a good point. Maybe i can stuff with insulation and seal of with Caulk? spackle ? something affordable cause these gaps run all arround and on the floor. i'll take some pics. Thanks a lot!

AVare Thanks for clarifying that.

Some quick info on the power - Most homes in the US have 2 legs of power coming from the pole, with 120 volts on each leg. The third wire is common and is grounded. The AC is 180 degress out of phase which essentially means the voltage across both power legs is the sum of the two or 240 volts. 240 is then available for high power appliances like water heaters, stoves, AC, etc. Note that some locations use 110/220 volts instead of 120/240, but the principle is the same. More information can be found here: http://www.rd.com/19509/article19509.html So connecting to one of those legs is not "safer", it's your only option if you don't want to send 240 volts into your gear. A typical breaker panel distributes the various loads evenly by connecting some circuits on each of the legs. But unless you intentionally wire across both, You'll never get more than 110/120 at any given outlet. So I'm not sure what your electrician was getting at.

The site was down for more than a day, i was getting anxious, :horse: I'm happy now... :yahoo: Thanks for posting brianrcdd. Once again, it was me who started this conversation with the guy but i do get the point that his contribution is questionable or there is always the possibility i am misrepresenting him. I any case, here is the core question:

A typical breaker panel distributes the various loads evenly by connecting some circuits on each of the legs

I think i read somewhere that you might want to avoid that and only run circuits to your studio off of one leg only. This is supposed to contribute to the noise floor some how... Other wise you would have, lets say, two circuits running to your studio each feeding of a different leg. I don't have the understanding of electricity to be able to predict which of the connections might produce a better noise floor. Or less of a chance for ground loops. Any body ?

Xspace, Here are some pics of the ceiling and floor gaps. This is a very good observation on your part as you will see the ceiling gaps run the hight of the entire second floor. I definitely need some air tight solution for this one. Thanks!

You're just a smidge past my expertise on this, but I will say it's probably not difficult to get all of your studio circuits fed off of one leg. As to whether or not it's going to provide better noise performance, I have no experience to say one way or the other. I've never had AC power cause noise problems in a recording environment; I guess I've been lucky.

Thanks brianrcdd, I think you have been lucky, there are more than just a few horror stories floating around about this issue.

I'd look at using a combination of wall insulation and wood blocking to address the open areas in the framing. But...it may only require wood blocking or that may be all you have room for. Given the options, insulation OR wood blocking, I would use the blocking because it is more dense. Don't short yourself here. Continue to think dense thoughts and do a high level of attaching...3" screws rather then nails, if this were me. Brien

in the US, power comes in (typically) on 2 110v legs for a total of 220v. then each half of the power box is split across these. if you wire your studio across both legs, you increase the possibility of having 110-220v potential if there is some defect in the wiring or equipment. having the entire studio run off a single leg will reduce the possible malfunction to 110v which most equipment (but people cannot) can deal with (because you have less risk of 2 legs (meaning someone put hot on the neutral) coming through unless the wiring is really screwed up)...

Xspace, Thanks! There are a lot of little holes and cracks there... If i close the big ones i think i need to caulk the small ones too. Using wood for the big gaps will take a lot of time and energy as the pieces would have to be cut individually. Is there any other material i can use that will be a little easier to manipulate? Hey Gullfo, Welcome! With your contribution i think this idea is starting to make sense.