Radio / Livestudio Combo pt2: Acoustics

As a follow up to my studio design thread I've started this acoustics thread. Just as a reminder: it's a combination studio. I work part time for a radio station as mixing engineer for Live band performances. We're moving house, and 'the suits' offered me the chance to design a dedicated live studio within the new facilities. Studio design thread: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10037 The reason I'm not just applying all pieces of good advice already on this forum and in Rod's book is cause I wanna make sure the same rules apply to the shape of this control room. 't would've been easier to just make it rectangular, but it wasn't possible. Let's take a look...

Questions: 1) If I were to put acoustic hangers in the ceiling of the control room. How would I best go about organizing them? 2) Since there are no strict side or back walls, how should I go about placing acoustic treatment?

Aloha, Would something like John's corner design treatments work for you? here (about 1/3 of the down the page) Hope this helps, Aloha 8)

How did I miss this??? I read this thread only last night... hmmm... that's what you get for staying up late fighting tiredness I guess. I'll read the thread asap... edit: ok, Read the thread a second time now. There's probably a lot I could learn from Meow's build, but not many details so far. No specifics on control room acoustic design. I'll dive into my sketchup again and see if I can figure it out myself... Sometimes I feel like a little doggy, waiting at the dinner table, hoping the boss 'll drop some of his leftover goodies... Bark Bark 8)

Aloha, Glad that was helpful. :wink: Perhaps something like this for rear wall hangers? You may also want to add a few clouds overhead. :wink: Aloha 8)

That does help, indeed. incorporated the Bass trap hangers in my design... Bark bark 1) The face of that rear bass trap is nearly 2 meters (nearly 7 feet if I'm not mistaken). That's quite a big bass trap. Should I put some more, smaller traps in the ceiling to wall corners, or won't that be necessary? 2) I let go of the idea of angling my ceiling cause of too complex construction. Will clouds be enough to avoid ceiling-floor flutter, or do I need to put some angled, reflective panels in between the clouds and the ceiling? 3) I see in the picture that, flanking the rear hangers, you incorporate two more angled cavities. Their purpose is not too clear to me. It does strike me that every solution brings two questions. Interesting stuff... :D

First attempt to put it together... _Naked absorption in the front _Slats above windows _Clouds overhead (including a wonderful cloud/lights design by a forum member. All credits to you once I find your thread again) _bass trap (hangers) in the rear. I'm assuming the slat absorbers wont be built till everything else is in place so I can design em towards any problem-range. edit: put in some extra ceiling-wall corner bass traps and rear wall panels around listening height...

Should I put some more, smaller traps in the ceiling to wall corners, or won't that be necessary?

I just put in 5 extra small ones in the ceiling wall corners. Seems like you can't overdo bass trapping.

Will clouds be enough to avoid ceiling-floor flutter, or do I need to put some angled, reflective panels in between the clouds and the ceiling?

Clueless... :?

3) I see in the picture that, flanking the rear hangers, you incorporate two more angled cavities. Their purpose is not too clear to me.

Assuming they're constructions to counter standing waves. All opposite walls are angled at least 12°, so no need for that imho. Question of the day: how to go about with ceiling-to-floor reflections when you can not angle the ceiling?

you can even open some space between the clouds to expose edges of the clouds and break up the surface. the cloud over the console should be absorptive as well. (it looks like glass in the drawing). and yea, you need logs of bass trapping.

(it looks like glass in the drawing)

Woops... :?

You can even open some space between the clouds to expose edges of the clouds and break up the surface.

I tried something. Picture below... Would the panels between the clouds and the ceiling help to break up flutter? Or could I just as well leave em out of the design?

The extra panels aren't necessary - even straight clouds would work, but angled they should vary absorption a bit due to the varied air gap behind. Just be sure to angle the absorbers high at the rear of the room just in case you use high density material that would tend to reflect highs back to the mix position - if this happens it'll cause smearing of highs/high mids due to comb filtering... Steve

Steve/Knightfly Glad to see you back. Even if its for a short spell And I have been checking the Obits and no sign Peace Tom

Thanks Tom, I'm still hoping to find some time to get up and see your place sometime this year :roll: Guess never having to worry about boredom has its price... Steve

Steve, I have had some small time celebs in but would be hornored by your presence. OK Britney doesn't count :lol: Seriously accomodations are no problem. Just let me know when!!! Boredom??? I would love to be able to play a round of golf. Not!! Peace Tom Sorry Sigert if I hijacked. Looking good. I am always humbled by people that can do sketch-up Just an FYI. I have icorporated many more clouds and bass traps than I previously thought I would need. And I still feel I need more. Especially in my ISO 2. Trying to remove all reflections can be quite difficult. Just look at Lord Tims thread. He has documented his findings with wonderful .wav files. Keep up the good work peace Tom

Consider the hijack forgiven. :) I've listened to the .wav files and it does make a difference indeed. Always nice te hear the result of the time and money spent, isn'tit? :lol: By demand of the "top floor" people of the radio studio I had to figure out a way to make room for bigger windows. After lengthy discussions, this is the current design being evaluated. Final drawings will need approval by May of this year, so time is running out... Right side window -> live room Center window -> radio studio Left side window -> vocal booth The antenna-like thingy with the circle at the bottom is an indication of the listening position (ear hight of a seated person).

Or, the same concept of flush mounted, angled speakers, but with a higher front window so even people standing up can enjoy the view.

I just keep posting advancements in the design. Anyone spotting any potential danger, do chip in. 8)

i think the monitors are way too high unless you're sitting all the way across the room... most monitoring situations - you generally want the monitor {acoustic} center to be as even with the main listening position as possible. i think after you go above a 8 or 10° down angle on the monitors the relationship to your ears is undesirable.

Yea, like if you were mixing for a dance club this would be great! I'm thinking of making my mix location resemble more the interior of my Ford pickup. With electric windows of course :)

Gullfo: I wasn't aware there was something like a maximum angle for soffiting speakers above which imaging problems would occur. I started out from the window who needed to be 1,8 meters high, and angled the baffles/speakers accordingly. 40° Angle is too much then? Each distance listener - speaker or speaker - speaker is 1,5 meters (+-5 ft), with a speaker height of 1,6 meters (+- 5ft 6").

There is a paper by Genelec about these issues.

Sigert wrote:

Gullfo: I wasn't aware there was something like a maximum angle for soffiting speakers above which imaging problems would occur. I started out from the window who needed to be 1,8 meters high, and angled the baffles/speakers accordingly. 40° Angle is too much then? Each distance listener - speaker or speaker - speaker is 1,5 meters (+-5 ft), with a speaker height of 1,6 meters (+- 5ft 6").

This may help. http://www.ebu.ch/CMSimages/en/tec_doc_t3276_tcm6-10536.pdf Andre

Ain't it a grand, exciting world we live and work in? I went to the architect with my proposition for mounting the speakers above the window so the window could be wider. He said he'd implement it straight away. Then my eye fell on a certain spot on his most recent drawing. I asked what that spot was standing in front of our recently enlarged window. Oh, it's a concrete structural pillar... D'oh! Ok, so we went for the simple, familiar soffit looking something like this...

I've been chatting with someone I respect deeply, even more so when it comes to acoustic design, and he called me crazy trying to construct flush mounted speakers with only wood, insulation and gyproc. He said I'd need solid materials to make it work, or at the very least a solid wall backing up my structure. Is this true? Am I heading for disaster?

Sigert wrote:

I've been chatting with someone I respect deeply, even more so when it comes to acoustic design, and he called me crazy trying to construct flush mounted speakers with only wood, insulation and gyproc. He said I'd need solid materials to make it work, or at the very least a solid wall backing up my structure.

Have a look at Egan's studio build for an answer. World class studio, world class designer. It hard to answer specific questions where the the question has a general "chatting with someone" as the the source. Andre