Double Garage Studio Design - Melbourne, Australia (7/10)

[adamthedrummerboy]

Thanks for the reply Scott.

My UK search for triple grips brought up a load of stuff about hair products! haha I'm sure there'll be an alternative.

My Dad is a civil engineer at the council so is going to get advice for me from the structural department, should help put my mind at ease.

[rockindad]

Thanks for the reply Scott.

My UK search for triple grips brought up a load of stuff about hair products! haha I'm sure there'll be an alternative.

My Dad is a civil engineer at the council so is going to get advice for me from the structural department, should help put my mind at ease.

Too funny. I don't have much need for hair products these days. Yeah, there'll be a different name for the same thing.

Let me know what you find out about the joists.

Scott

[rockindad]

It's alive..!!!

Plywood ceiling etc 1.jpg

Plywood ceiling etc 2.jpg

So...lots has happened.
North (Door) and South (Window) walls have all got 1 layer of 16mm mdf on them, East and west walls have 2 layers each and ceiling has one layer of plywood.

Ventillation fan.jpg

Ventillation fan installed on resilient mount. Plus there is some flexi-vent going in in stages.

Next...
1. Plaster to go on North and South walls, and ceiling.
2. Feature panelling to go on East wall
3. West wall is going to be a full bass trap...

Rear wall bass trap design.jpg

I am planning to use more dense (~25 kg/m^3) panels in the frame and fluffy stuff in the gap.

Also, where to put the split-system AC unit...? I am thinking of mounting it central to the West wall (rear bass trap wall)...which means I'll need to ensure the frame is adequate there. The alternative is to put it on the North wall next to the doorway firing across the room. Thoughts??

[Soundman2020]

Ventillation fan installed on resilient mount.

How do you know that mount will actaully isolate it? What frequency is that mount tuned to? What load does that rubber need in order to provide the correct resilience, and what deflection is that supposed to produce? To me, it does not look like that mount is going to isolate that fan...

Also, it seems that you are putting your fan inside the room??? That isn't correct: the fan should be as far away as possible from the room, optimally at the very end of the outlet duct.

Also, where to put the split-system AC unit...? I am thinking of mounting it central to the West wall (rear bass trap wall)...which means I'll need to ensure the frame is adequate there. The alternative is to put it on the North wall next to the doorway firing across the room. Thoughts??

But you already have your inner-leaf and outer-leaf walls in place, don't you? So how are you going to get the pipe bundle through correctly? It can't just go straight across the gap!!! That would create a major flanking path... Just like your electrical power feed, there has to be a long section of pipe inside the cavity, running parallel to the wall faces, between the point where it goes through the inner-leaf and the point where it goes through the outer leaf. How are you planning to do that with your walls already in place?

- Stuart -

[rockindad]

How do you know that mount will actaully isolate it? What frequency is that mount tuned to? What load does that rubber need in order to provide the correct resilience, and what deflection is that supposed to produce?

I've got no idea! Could you point me towards any resources to help out...Google has not been kind to me on that front. The rubber is neoprene purchased from here...

http://www.clarkrubber.com.au/strip-neo ... -50mm.html

Also, it seems that you are putting your fan inside the room??? That isn't correct: the fan should be as far away as possible from the room, optimally at the very end of the outlet duct.

The fan is positioned outside the room...above the outer leaf, inside the roof cavity...and at the end of the outlet duct. It is as far away as I could get it within the constraints of the building...short of doing some major works. The fan will connect to a roof mushroom via a short run of flexiduct.

But you already have your inner-leaf and outer-leaf walls in place, don't you? So how are you going to get the pipe bundle through correctly? It can't just go straight across the gap!!! That would create a major flanking path... Just like your electrical power feed, there has to be a long section of pipe inside the cavity, running parallel to the wall faces, between the point where it goes through the inner-leaf and the point where it goes through the outer leaf. How are you planning to do that with your walls already in place?

Yes...something else I didn't consider too well. For electrical, there is still access between the walls at the door way as I haven't covered that over just yet. I was thinking I could use flexible conduit...sealed and stuffed with some fibreglass insulation at the ends, to run cables from the outside leaf to the inside leaf. I was going to punch in at a point on one side of the door and run over the door and into the room on the other side, making only one penetration point into the room on the north wall (wall opposite the window). Then use exposed conduit to run the wiring around inside the room. Is that a good solution?

I'll need to talk to my AC guy about the requirements for the split system...but I could potentially do something similar in that same area. I'm just not sure on the do's and don'ts with the AC connections between the head unit and the compressor. Any advice there also would be appreciated.

Do you think placing on the west wall (rear wall from a mix perspective) would be the best position? It would help to keep the room symmetrical.

Thanks for the looking.

Scott

[Soundman2020]

I've got no idea! Could you point me towards any resources to help out...Google has not been kind to me on that front. The rubber is neoprene purchased from here...

You'll need to know the Shore scale and hardness of that rubber in order to figure it out. I could make some educated guesses, but it would be best if you contact hte manufacturer and ask them directly: What is the Shore hardness of that specific rubber, and which Shore scale that is measured on. Also ask them what the optimal static deflection is for maximum vibration isolation. As I said, I can estimate those, but accurate numbers would be better. I would hope it is something like Shore A 40 or less.

The fan is positioned outside the room...above the outer leaf, inside the roof cavity...a

Ahh! OK. All is good...

For electrical, there is still access between the walls at the door way as I haven't covered that over just yet. I was thinking I could use flexible conduit...sealed and stuffed with some fibreglass insulation at the ends,

The best way for maximum isolation is to do it like this:

Conduit-isolation.png

Conduit-isolation-2.png

Conduit-isolation-3.png

Cut a small section out of the middle of the conduit, and wrap the gap with your Neoprene. Hold it in place with zip-ties. Seal the seam where the rubber joins itself. After the wireing has been pulled through, poke fiberglass insulation down each end of the conduit, and cap it with caulk.

I was going to make only one penetration point into the room on the north wall (wall opposite the window) and use external conduit to run the wiring around the room.

Or do it like this inside the room:

http://www.calcentron.com/Pages/fram-tr ... aceway.htm
http://www.export.legrand.com/EN/dlp-wa ... ng_95.html

I'm just not sure on the do's and don'ts with the AC connections between the head unit and the compressor. Any advice there also would be appreciated.

There's a bundle of stuff that connects the two units. Usually there are two copper pipes (one to carry the cold coolant to the indoor unit, the other to return the warm coolant to the compressor unit), and an electrical cable that also carries the control signals, plus the condensate drain hose. The copper piping is semi-flexible: it can be bent to a certain extent with a wide radius bend, and if you wall has a decent air gap then there should be enough space to bend it where it comes through the inner-leaf so that it runs parallel to the leaf surface. Then run it across a distance of at least one stud bay inside the cavity, more if possible, bend it again to take it out through the outer leaf. The electrical cable can follow the two copper cables here. Another possibility is to make a "loop" out of that bundle inside the wall cavity. That's fine for the two pipes and the cable, but not for the condensate drain hose. That one has a special requirement: it must always be on an incline, downhill from the indoor unit. The condensate runs away by gravity alone, so there can be no uphill sections in that (unless you also want to invest in a condensate pump...).

As long as you do things with the above in mind, and no straight-across penetrations, then you should be OK.

Do you think placing on the west wall (rear wall from a mix perspective) would be the best position? It would help to keep the room symmetrical.

For a control room, the middle of the rear wall is a good location. For a live room, it doesn't really matter.


- Stuart -

[rockindad]

Awesome - thanks again Stuart.

I'll get those rolling in the next week or so.

I found this company - Gelmec - and was thinking of using a gel mat to isolate the fan...

http://gelmec.com/

They have product SN-15 under: products/sheet materials/ gel anti vibration mat, that seems to fit the bill. They even have data! That seems hard to come by for a lot of products.

Anyways...plastering is done.

Ceiling Plastered.jpg

[rockindad]

So I've been busy...

Paling wall and bass trap covers.jpg

Plaster done...and painted. Concrete floor painted. Paling wall done. This will be my front wall - so I thought a feature wall was apt. Covers for the front corner traps...done. There's no insulation in there yet...I'll wait to do a base level reading in REW when I get the window and door done.

Exposed conduit.jpg

I'm wired and ready for my electrician to connect everything up. I have 2 double power points on the side walls and a 4 outlet on the front wall, plus a central 4 spot LED light, and a controller for the ventilation fan (the grey box).

Rear wall absorption frame.jpg

This is the rear wall frame that will be ALL bass trap / absorption ALL the time. As mentioned in an earlier post, there will be fluffy fibreglass in the gap and higher density panels at the front between the studs. I will cover this with material of some sort...somehow...!? The air conditioner head unit will be mounted central on this frame.

Getting there.

Next: Speaker stands. Laminate glass on the internal side of the window...then door...and AC...then to testing

But first...Merry Christmas.

[OttoPus]

Inspiring build! Looking good so far

Merry Christmas everybody

[rockindad]

Ok so, two questions:
1. In Rod's book he says to put fibreglass insulation in between the double glazing. Is is a big deal if I don't get all 4 surfaces with insulation? I can get the two sides...but the top and bottom...

Window detail.jpg

I'm hoping to get a glazier out this coming week to put some 12mm laminate glass in.

2. Door handles/levers. What's the deal? I'm most likely going with just the one beefed up door. I could do a heavy duty roller latch...but how do I make that a secure door? I was looking at lockable lever handles...but then I have to cut through the whole door. What's the go?

Electrician should be in on Monday to get me wired for sound...and lights etc. AC guy next week.

Also...I made these.

Speaker Stands.jpg

And I was thinking of making something like this...

Car Seat Lounge Idea.JPG

So close to the end I can smell it!

[Soundman2020]

he says to put fibreglass insulation in between the double glazing. Is is a big deal if I don't get all 4 surfaces with insulation? I can get the two sides...but the top and bottom...

Think of it this way: That space is a large resonant cavity... without insulation, there is no damping...

What are those shiny white surfaces top and bottom?

I was looking at lockable lever handles...but then I have to cut through the whole door. What's the go?

Electro magnetic latches... That's one way to do it. Some are just surface mount, others need a through-hole, some fit in a pocket on the edge of the door, or embedded in the frame. Or you could put an ordinary mechanical surface-mounted latch. Or if you really have to, you could drill through to have a typical latch set on your exterior door, as long as you do it carefully and choose a latch that has plenty of mass to it, with a good, heavy sealing plate on both sides.

Also...I made these.

Nice! Solid wood? Also, I'm assuming you made them the correct height so that the ACOUSTIC AXIS or your speakers will end up at 1-2m above the floor? I'd also suggest putting some Sorbothane pads under your speakers, carefully sized to decouple them as well as possible.

And I was thinking of making something like this...

"Ladies and gentlemen, welcome aboard. Please fasten your seat-belts, pay attention to the 'No Smoking' sign, and place your tray table and seat back in the upright position.... "


- Stuart -

[rockindad]

Think of it this way: That space is a large resonant cavity... without insulation, there is no damping...

Yeah, I thought you'd say that...so I worked it out. I wrapped some fibreglass insulation in calico.

Window detail 2.jpg

And I had 12mm laminated glass installed.

Internal glazing.jpg

What are those shiny white surfaces top and bottom?

We call that paint...

Nice! Solid wood? Also, I'm assuming you made them the correct height so that the ACOUSTIC AXIS or your speakers will end up at 1-2m above the floor? I'd also suggest putting some Sorbothane pads under your speakers, carefully sized to decouple them as well as possible.

Yes, solid wood (MDF core, clad in reclaimed hardwood), and yes, at the right height.
Question: When you say, 'carefully sized'; how does one do that? The dimensions of my speakers are; H:323mm W:305 D:222 Weight 5.5kg

Also, I have power on now...

Lights in action.jpg

My door is in progress...

Door in progress.jpg

And...I made this...

Couch 1.jpg

Couch 2.jpg

Couch 3.jpg

I have to get the switchboard upgraded before I can get my AC installed, so a couple of weeks before that can happen...sigh!

Going to start testing once the door is finished.

[rockindad]

I started doing some testing...with this set-up

Test Setup.jpg

The mic is at the 38% mark and 1.2m high. I've got some proper sorbothane feet for the speakers on their way.
I measured the room empty then with super chunks in then with the back wall loaded up.

Superchunks.jpg

I used the lower density stuff for these.

Rear wall insulation.jpg

This has the lower density stuff capped off with higher density (approx 25 kg/m^3)
Here's a link to the MDAT file
https://drive.google.com/a/aquinas.vic. ... sp=sharing

It seems I seem to have a large problem at 50Hz...

Questions:
Am I doing the test right? (see top pic)
How does one deal with 50Hz
Any thoughts on the data so far?

How does one deal with 50Hz anyways.

Next is to make some panels for the walls - first points of reflection.

[Soundman2020]

Here's a link to the MDAT file

I downloaded that and took a look, but the data does not seem to be very useful, since you did the tests at a very, very low level. According to the data, all your tests were done at around 50 dB. It needs to be 85 dB. You need to re-calibate REW correctly, using a proper hand-held sound level meter, then repeat all of those tests.

- Stuart -

[rockindad]

Thanks again for taking the time Stuart.

Well - take two - I calibrated this time The last tests were run at around 95dB...I just didn't do the calibrate thing. Anyways...here's the new measurements.

https://drive.google.com/a/aquinas.vic. ... sp=sharing

There seems to be some weird stuff going on below 60Hz The levels increased after I added the corner bass traps...!? The empty room shows a non-symmetrical bass response...but the room is symmetrical..except for the ventilation vent at the front of the room. Anyway, that disappears, and there is a big boost at 50Hz after adding treatment. What the..!?

I'm guessing a hard backed cloud will be happening as part of the treatment. I have a 2.4 x 1.2m panel of 50mm Bradford Ultratel
http://bradfordinsulation.com.au/~/medi ... sheet.ashx
I was thinking of using for that...at around a 20 degree angle (low end toward the wall).