Building new Studio in Baskeland.

[Soundman2020]

I didn't know about all those designs! Is it in John's Book?

John seems to use mostly modified RFZ designs these days. I don't think he uses any of the others. There are many concepts out there, some well-known, some not.

I know that this is not suitable saying in this forums (where tons of knowledge and experience is used for improving everyday all the techniques) but i'm not looking forward a professional CR

That's fine! No problem at all. Not everyone needs that, and budget is always an issue for home studios. But the same basic principles still apply, even for low-cost rooms, so it's best to take them into account, as much as possible.

i will check how the CR sounds leaving it rectangular,

Rectangular is also fine! You don't need to change the shape... Just leave it as a plain old ordinary rectangle... But you aren't doing that at present! You are ALREADY angling the front wall, which is wasting space pointlessly, and making it much harder to calculate room modes and predict room behavior. I would straighten out that front wall, and put the space to good use. And do make sure you choose a good ratio: that can go a long way to helping the room sound decent.

Gracias hermano!

¡De nada!

- Stuart -

[BlackStorm]

Hey Stuart!!

Yep, the two angled shapes in the front wall has been discarded

And yes, that's exactly why i'm trying to learn so much in this forums for trying to achieve the maximum result with the same budget

Sorry, what do you mean with Ratio? The lengths of side A an B of the rectangular CR?

Just a little improvement i've done with the brickwalls and first door frame, I'm really busy with my band's new albums until september, so this will go pretty slowly til september.

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The door is one i bought used, it's a shielded one, with two metal layers inside, it's heavy!! I hope one of these doors in each leaf will be nice? What do you think Stuart? If not i can beef them up later

[Soundman2020]

Sorry, what do you mean with Ratio? The lengths of side A an B of the rectangular CR?

Your "room ratio" is the relationship between the length, width and height of the room, and is a very key part of the acoustics of the room, since it governs how the "room modes" will behave. "Modes" are standing waves caused by the dimensions of the room. If a wave fits in perfectly between two walls, then the entire room will resonate at that frequency, greatly increasing the loudness of that specific note, but not of the notes on either side. That's bad, of course, but even worse is this: the room will carry on resonating at that frequency even AFTER the note stops. So the speaker stops playing that note, but the room carries on playing it for a short time...

So the idea is to choose your room dimensions so there are modes for every single note on the scale. In small rooms, that simply is not possible for low notes, but you still should choose dimensions that spread the modes around as evenly as possible. For example, if two of the dimensions are the same (for example, if the room is 8 feet wide and also 8 feet high), then the modes in those two directions line up with each other perfectly, making the problem twice as bad for that frequency.

So choose your room dimensions carefully!

There are several "good" ratios, and a whole bunch of "bad" ones. The good ones are usually named after the scientist who found them: Bolt, Sepmeyer, Louden, Boner, Volkmann, etc. so you commonly see reference to "Louden's third ratio", meaning the third best one discovered by him.

The search feature on the forum should help you with this.


- Stuart -

[BlackStorm]

LOL!!

Everytime i post and you reply, you open me a new world of wisdom i wasn't aware of!!! Of course i heard something about it, and the standing waves we talked before. This means that i don't read enough!! I know

Well, i'm sorta lost with calculation all these modes etc. I don't understan the results pretty good (i supose they are the main mode frecuencies and the 2nd,3rd,4th etc harmonics), but i supose the more diverse the resulting modes, the better it will be, as we will have more notes having standing waves and the low end will sound more linear am i right? If modes are repeated, then they sum and cancell in nodes resulting in a disaster.
The only dimension i can decide is the depth of the CR. The Height is 2,5m. the Width 4,3m, and i was thinking on a depth of about 4 meters, but i see that would be pretty BAD!
Tried to find some optimum ratios, for determining the optimal depth, but the ones i find are kind of 1:2,16:2,97, and from here to bigger, and that's out of my range. Mine would be something like 1:X,XX:1,72.
Any quick suggestions?

Thanks man for taking your time for a sound/dumb like me.

[Soundman2020]

I don't understan the results pretty good (i supose they are the main mode frecuencies and the 2nd,3rd,4th etc harmonics),

Right, but it gets even more complicated than that: There are modes that form between two parallel room boundaries, called "axial modes", and there are also modes that form between four boundaries, called "tangential" modes, and then there are modes that involve all six room boundaries, called "oblique" modes. And they all occur at different levels...

but i supose the more diverse the resulting modes, the better it will be, as we will have more notes having standing waves and the low end will sound more linear am i right?

Yes, but to have more mode at lower frequencies, you have to move the walls, floor and ceiling! The longest audible wavelengths are about 56 feet long, so you need to have a room at least 28 feet long, 25 feet wide, and 22 feet high, to cover every note on the scale... (and even then you are missing two......)

Any quick suggestions?

Try this:

http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm



Have fun!



(PS. That's one of the best room mode calculators out there: it gives you a treasure trove of information on your room, not just modes...)


- Stuart -

[BlackStorm]

Yeah!!
That one was the first i tried (Bob Gold), but for some reaseon it doesn't output any results in this computer, but does in my cell phone!
Then i found interesting this one aswell, where i read for the first time about the tangential and oblique modes, lees powerful but summed with the axial can be significative.

http://www.mcsquared.com/metricmodes.htm

BUT, i was blind as always, i was just looking for the dimensions of the CR, but the depth of the CR conditions the depth of the LR!! And i supose that the LR is more critical due to the high volumes? I should look for the optimal situation of the wall so the modal behaviour is best in both rooms i supose. I have 9,6m in total between the outer leaf of LR and CR.

"And i wonder why didn't i continue studying acoustics after three years of physics at university", looks like a wonderful world!

[BlackStorm]

Hi there.

Just updating a lil bit. The brickwalls are growing up, slowly but they're going on. I've decided to build a stone wall between the CR and LR, the CR side wall, as i have plenty of stones coming from a demolition of the farm when it was burnt in the past.
I've been also dealing with different ratios and i've aproached to a close one for the CR to the Best Louden ratio 1:1'4:1'9. Mine will be 1:1'46:1'86. And Live Room 1:1'87:2'17, somehow near to 4th best Louden ratio 1:1'5:2'2.
I hope to do it optimal with this two ratios!!

[BlackStorm]

Hi there!
Long time no posting! But the work goes on. Here are some pics of the actual state of the brickwall!! Almost done! Gotta fill in between the joists and finish the wall in front.









Next step after closing the brickwalls at all, the wall between the CR and LR, which will be a rockwall with these Velux windows.



Is it a good idea using a Velux window? (I ask due to the joints etc. I will seal it as much as possible. I want to use them as they were here when we bought the farm, refubrished them, and they're like "new" now.

I've been thinking on some tiling material i have and i'm going to throw it out. Would it be a good idea to cover the brickwall in the inner side with tiles so as to give more wheight to the wall in the LR side? I was considering it before throwing the tiles out. If it's good for isolation, maybe the work is worth it, as for me it's almost for free (i'd have to buy some mortar for glueing the tiles).

Cheers!!

[BlackStorm]

Just updating a lil bit.
The outerbrickwall is finished, and i'm building the stone wall between the CR and LR!! The window is already put over the wall, and just filling up the wall with rocks around the door and window!!
I'll take some pictures later and upload.

Maybe i'll have some bricks left after all, so i was wondering if it would be a good idea making the inner walls of the LR of bricks, but put vertically istead of laid down as i did with the outer brickwall. I would put all the rockwool before against the outer wall, so the mortar wouldn't bridge the two walls. This way, the ceiling would be the only part with gypsum.
In the inner side of the LR, the inner brickwalls would be covered with some wood for finishing.

Any suggestions? And what do you think about the tiles and putting them in the outer brickwall's inside part for adding mass?
Cheers!!

[BlackStorm]

Here are some pics of the progress!
I'm into the electric installation these days.
Gotta think on the patchbay aswell!!

Before starting with the central stone wall:

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Brickwalls finished!:

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Stone wall with window:

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So anxious for finishing the Stone wall and beginning with the rockwool, inner wall and ceiling!!
Cheers!!

[BlackStorm]

Good morning my friends.

Long time no see. I've gone through some personal issues, but still continued with the studio building, and i'm in the point of fibre glass/mineral fibre step. Just did the framing for the inner wall and the ceiling in the Live Room, so time for preparing the electrical conducts, air ducts, and putting up isolation, and after that the gypsum boards!!

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I need to do some horizontal framing for the mineral fibre holding, but i want to wait until i buy it and know the exact measures.

As you can see, i have plenty of space between the two walls, 32cms in one wall, 39 in the other, and 21 in the ceiling.
Any suggestions if i should buy fibre glass or mineral wool? I was thinking on buying Acustiline 30kg/m3, dunno if it's 40mm thick. Putting three layers of 30kg/m3 of rockwool.
Any suggestions? Maybe i should put more density in the ceiling as i have less space?

Also, as you can see, i sprayed the two outer brickwalls from the inside with poliuretane, it's about 6cm thick. I did it for a complete hermetical thing, as i was concernet about the ceiling mainly, as it's a wooden floor and not air tight.
Dunno if i did it well, spent like 700€, and dunno if it was worth doing for the price, but it's already done, so, hahah!

I'm also wondering about the airducting, it's a 60m3 room aproximately. How big should be the in/out ducts? The diameter? Maybe i should plan this before doing the framing, but again i'm doing things upside down, lol.
I was wondering if there are any split type solutions which also include fresh air, appart from cold/hot air.

Thanks for any advice.
I will post some pics of the Control Room later, as it's more advanced and already did some Mixing and Mastering there, although the room response is horrible yet haha! XD

[Soundman2020]

Any suggestions if i should buy fibre glass or mineral wool? I was thinking on buying Acustiline 30kg/m3, dunno if it's 40mm thick. Putting three layers of 30kg/m3 of rockwool.

There's not a lot of difference, really. Mineral wool with a density of around 50 kg/m3,or fiberglass at around 30 kg/m3 will both work well.

Maybe i should put more density in the ceiling as i have less space?

Insulation does not make up for missing cavity depth, nor for missing leaf mass. Insulation is there mostly to damp the internal resonances going on inside the wall, so the density (or rather, the gas flow resistivity) needs to be optimal for that purpose. Using higher density insulation won't help with that, and in fact could harm isolation if the density is very high.

The only way to make up for a smaller cavity, is by using more mass on the leaves.

Also, as you can see, i sprayed the two outer brickwalls from the inside with poliuretane, it's about 6cm thick. I did it for a complete hermetical thing, as i was concernet about the ceiling mainly, as it's a wooden floor and not air tight.

That's fine for sealing, but does not count as insulation, and won't help there. That type of foam is usually closed-cell, so it has very little useful damping effect. It isn't "porous absorption", acoustically.

I'm also wondering about the airducting, it's a 60m3 room aproximately. How big should be the in/out ducts?

Big enough to provide the flow rate (volume) of air that your room needs, at the flow velocity (speed) that it needs. You use the general guidelines for HVAC systems to do that, by starting with the number of "room changes per hour" that you need, as well as the amount of replacement air that you need according to the room occupancy. Based on that, you figure out what duct size will move that volume of air at speeds that are no higher than 300 fpm, and preferably around 100 fpm, or even lower.

Maybe i should plan this before doing the framing,

If not, then very probably you will find that the silencer box and/or ducting just won't fit. You'd probably have to cut out some framing pieces to get them in, then replace the missing framing. And doing that safely is a challenge!

I was wondering if there are any split type solutions which also include fresh air, appart from cold/hot air.

There are a few, yes, but not many, and even then they don¿t provide for removing stale air...

I will post some pics of the Control Room later, as it's more advanced and already did some Mixing and Mastering there, although the room response is horrible yet haha!

Cool! Looking forward to seeing that! And also seeing the REW test results...


- Stuart -

[BlackStorm]

Hi there again!

Sorry for the late replies and few posting. I'm pretty busy with work, music projects and all

I feel like a dumb for the questions i made without reading such great threads about HVAC.
Now that i feel more into the stuff, i was thinking on a design which i'll be discussing with a sound engineer in some days.

I will separate Fresh Air and AC side, so my main concern is about rthe Fresh Air side.

Here you have some SketchUp screenshots. Basically i'll be building all the ducts and machines over the LR in the upper floor.

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I hope it works for making an idea of what i have in mind

The In/Out boxes into the Live Room are suposed to be Silencers LOL.

(i will paste the text in the HVAC thread )

And also there will be a Mini-Split in the Live and Control Room.

My concern with this system is that if it's cold outside, lets say 0ºC, the minisplit (better said the inverter) inside the Live Room will have to work very hard all the time, and maybe there could result some annoying air currents due to the high contrast of temperatures?

I'm planning to get some advice/help from a engineer, but building all that i can by myself. Of course the refrigerant thing will be done by an authorized technician.

Also, i've heard that the air flow should be of 20 renewals per hour? I read about 6 i think here, but they told me that code says minimum 6 for a small office for instance, not for a room with activity, sweating and headbanging

Cheers to all, and have a nice happy day

[Soundman2020]

My concern with this system is that if it's cold outside, lets say 0ºC, the minisplit (better said the inverter) inside the Live Room will have to work very hard all the time, and maybe there could result some annoying air currents due to the high contrast of temperatures?

For very cold or very hot climates, then use an HRV or ERV unit at the point where the air exits and enters the building to/from the outside. Those units are very efficient, and can recover a lot of the heat that would otherwise be lost.

Also, i've heard that the air flow should be of 20 renewals per hour?

20 is a LOT! Not necessary for a studio. You would only need such a high rate in places like bars, restaurants, night-clubs, and industrial rooms. For a studio, 6 to 10 is about right.

Your silencers seem to be rather large, which is not a problem! Except that it takes up a lot of space. I normally try to put the HVAC system in the cavity between the inner-leaf ceiling and the outer-leaf ceiling, where possible, so that it takes up no floor space. Of course, it does reduce ceiling height in part of the room like that, but in general that can be preferable to losing floor space.

- Stuart -

[BlackStorm]

Hey Stuart

I asked for advice to the expert who will build me the airducts about the high temperature contrast and HRV systems, and what he suggested is that due to the few days through the year that i will have those contrasts, i should try just first putting the Fresh air system, and see what happens before spending that much money. He says that i should be perfectly there with a Mini Split even with the high contrasts. So first i will install the fresh air system, and leave the Mini Split ducts installed for future installation if my budget doesn't allow me to do it now.

I have started installing the insulation, finally fiberglass of 12cm thick and 15kg/m3. I know that it's not too dense and it should be 30, but i got crazy asking everywhere if they had 50kg/m3 of rockwool or 30kg/m3 of fiberglass, and NO ONE had them.
Finally i found this supplier who offered me this material for really cheap, and i went for it. 1000€ for 60m2 of 12cm of fiberglass, 120m2 of 65mm mineral wool (lana arena 30kg/m3) and 20 sheets of 1200x2400mm x 18mm of drywall.
I'm in the process of putting in the insulation right now.
I've been also looking for acoustic caulk, and i find it impossible to find it here! It's a pain in the ass getting the proper material here. Even the 18mm drywall was like something from outer space.
I can't find any foam backer rod neither, and there's only one supplier of green glue in spain, i'm afraid of even asking for prices...

I am a bit concerned about the floor. I am thinking on installing real wood, i like the feel of real wood, specially in the area where playing music, bare foot and stuff , and i just bought it yesterday. well, they suggest installing the wood over some small frames of timber, 22mm high in my case, and i was planinng on first putting the isolation sheet, then the frames, fill the 22mm gaps with rockwool, and then the wood floor.
Will this gap of 22mm high filled with rockwool create a resonant cavity enough to become negative? Or the gap is small enought that it will be insignificant?
Should i install the wood directly over the isolation sheet as laminated floor?
Damn, i always realize about these details after buying the stuff I can get my money back though.

Here you have a view of the process. I hope to finish today with the fiberglass and wool installation.

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