Building new Studio in Baskeland.

[BlackStorm]

Hi there.

This is my first post and i'm not natural english speaker, so sorry about my bad english
I'm from Baskeland (Basque Country), between France and Spain, and i'm in the process of building a home studio at my farm. My idea is to build a Control Room of about 20m2 and a Recording Room of about 25m2, all of this with a height of about 2,50m.

It's suposed to be a personal studio, with no big budget (i'm talking about 2000€ by the moment), and the main purpose is to build and isolate the Recording/Rehearsal room for rehearsing with my band and recording with no problems with the sound coming out to the house side. I live in a farm we've recently bought, and we have two neighbours at about 100 meters, but the main worry for me is not annoying my girlfriend while she is at the house and i'm rehearsing with my band. The farm's outer walls are made of rocks and about 50 cms thick (will the sound go through?). The farm is long, so half is the house, and the other half is the studio part. We have done a wooden middle flat in the studio half, so there are two levels in the studio part aswell, but i'm using the lower one. So my worry is that the sound won't go horizontally to the house side.

The sole is concrete, and it's different from the house sole. There's a 10cm difference in height between both (studio part is higher)

I'm a Thrash Metal and Extreme Metal maniac (some other styles as Blues/rock i love aswell), so the volume while rehearsing will be very very loud (our drummer hits like a beast). I know i must be objective, but i have no clue about how loud it would be in dBs. I think it will be around 100 or 110 dBs?

So i have to begin building it from zero, there are no walls yet, and the roof is the wood of the upside level.

I've been reading some on the net about the basics on sound isolation, and i began to make a floating floor for the Rec. Room, and yesterday it was the day for starting with the double brickwalls. They brought me all the bricks this week, and my idea was to put rubber below the walls, but i realized that the morter won't stick the rubber with the bricks!!!! so i began to think about it properly before making things worse.
Last week i built the floating floor, as i read in so many websites, but today, while i was searching for answers about the rubber below the brickwalls, i found out that maybe i should take all the bricks back to the store and buy gypsum! And also that maybe i didn't need to build the floating floor!!! Here you have some pics:

Planue 1.JPG

DSC_0228.jpg

DSC_0245.jpg

DSC_0251.jpg

Any suggestions or help will be really apreciated. I don't want to waste money and less the time and effort on this, and sorry if i've been a numb making that floating floor
Finding this forums and John has been a great discovery! Thanks in advance!
Cheers!

[Soundman2020]

Hi there "BlackStorm". Welcome. Please read the forum rules for posting (click here). You seem to be missing a couple of things!

so sorry about my bad english

I don't think it is bad at all! Pretty good, actually!

i'm in the process of building a home studio at my farm. My idea is to build a Control Room of about 20m2 and a Recording Room of about 25m2, all of this with a height of about 2,50m.

IT would help a lot if you could do the diagram in SketchUp, which is a very powerful (and free!) tool for design. After you learn the basics, it will make your life a lot easier.

outer walls are made of rocks and about 50 cms thick (will the sound go through?).

Stone and rock are very good at isolating sound, as they are very massive (heavy). Mass is what you need to stop sound. So in your case, the weakest part will be the ceiling above you, as well as the doors, windows, HVAC system and electrical system.

So my worry is that the sound won't go horizontally to the house side.

Sound expands outwards in all directions, especially low frequency sound (not so much high frequency), so it will just take the "weakest" or easiest path out. If you have a great floor and great walls, it will go through the ceiling. If the ceiling is great too, it will go through the doors/windows. And if they are also great, then it will go through your HVAC system. And if that is great too, then it will go through your electrical system.

I'm a Thrash Metal and Extreme Metal maniac (some other styles as Blues/rock i love aswell), so the volume while rehearsing will be very very loud (our drummer hits like a beast). I know i must be objective, but i have no clue about how loud it would be in dBs. I think it will be around 100 or 110 dBs?

Probably closer to 120 dB. But to be certain, get yourself a sound level meter, and measure the real level, as well as the level that you want outside the room, in order to "no disturb your girlfriend".

and the roof is the wood of the upside level.

In the photos, the joists are visible, but what is above those joists? How is the floor above built? What materials, how thick, etc.?

They brought me all the bricks this week, and my idea was to put rubber below the walls, but i realized that the morter won't stick the rubber with the bricks!!!! so i began to think about it properly before making things worse.

That was very, very smart! It is not possible to float a wall the way you were trying, and it would have been very, very dangerous to do it like that. It's excellent that you stopped and looked for the right way to do it. VERY good!

Last week i built the floating floor, as i read in so many websites,

Yes, it truly is unfortunate that so many web sites continue promoting that evil myth! I'm not sure if it is simple ignorance, plain stupidity, or a because they want to sell you something, but it really is NOT necessary in the vast majority of studios, and in the few cases where it really is necessary, the method they show simply will not work. You might have already seen this, but I'll post it again here for you (or others who find this thread in the future) can find out the truth about how to float a floor:

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... f=2&t=8173

And also that maybe i didn't need to build the floating floor!!!

Exactly! It was not necessary, and the way you built it will not help at all. In fact, it will probably harm both your isolation and your room acoustics.

i found out that maybe i should take all the bricks back to the store and buy gypsum!

Bricks are good for isolating, but only when done correctly, and there is also the issue of weight: Bricks are very heavy. There might be a problem with building a brick wall on top of your slab in an area that is too weak to support that weight properly. If the slab is resting directly on the ground, then you are probably OK, but don't take my word for it: hire a structural engineer ("calculista") to check.

Here you have some pics:

That's a very nice stone wall, and it is almost a shame to cover it up with a second wall! What is on the other side of that wall? I also see a simple wooden partition at the far end of the room... How is that built, and what is on the other side? What about the other two walls?

and sorry if i've been a numb making that floating floor

Well, at least you found this forum before you went too far, and you can probably re-use most of those materials in building the studio the right way, so it's not too bad: Some people who found the forum under similar circumstance were a lot further advanced than you, and had to undo a large amount of construction! In your case, it's not so bad.

- Stuart -

[BlackStorm]

Hey Stuart!!

A huge THANK YOU for the welcome and for the first suggestions!!! Unfortunately i read the rules befores starting the topic but i don't see the points i forgot, could you please tell me so i can give some more info?
I'm sorry but i came very late from work today and i don't have enough time to respond properly each point with the time it deserves.

IT would help a lot if you could do the diagram in SketchUp, which is a very powerful (and free!) tool for design. After you learn the basics, it will make your life a lot easier.

Great!! I didn't know the program!! Just downloading! Thanks mate!!

Stone and rock are very good at isolating sound, as they are very massive (heavy). Mass is what you need to stop sound. So in your case, the weakest part will be the ceiling above you, as well as the doors, windows, HVAC system and electrical system.

Yeah, i wanted to hear that I think they are 60 cm thick.

Probably closer to 120 dB. But to be certain, get yourself a sound level meter, and measure the real level, as well as the level that you want outside the room, in order to "no disturb your girlfriend".

My actual problem is that our band is a long dinstance band, and we don't rehearse unless we have some festivals or something just one or two days before. I could measure the volume in an actual rehearsal in our actual rehearsal room, but this won't happen until September minimum, as we're finishing writing our first album for recording on August.

In the photos, the joists are visible, but what is above those joists? How is the floor above built? What materials, how thick, etc.?

It's a pinewood male/female type (do you understand this?) floor, about 20mm i think. The idea is to put a parquet or similar over it.

That was very, very smart! It is not possible to float a wall the way you were trying, and it would have been very, very dangerous to do it like that. It's excellent that you stopped and looked for the right way to do it. VERY good!

Yeah, i was frightened when i realized about this!! How couldn't i see it before buying all the rubber and bricks!!!

Yes, it truly is unfortunate that so many web sites continue promoting that evil myth! I'm not sure if it is simple ignorance, plain stupidity, or a because they want to sell you something, but it really is NOT necessary in the vast majority of studios, and in the few cases where it really is necessary, the method they show simply will not work. You might have already seen this, but I'll post it again here for you (or others who find this thread in the future) can find out the truth about how to float a floor:

Buffff!!! It's a relief now that you guys made me realize. I've studied Physics at university and now i see perfectly that what i created is a perfect resonant box that will be annoying as hell with the bass player's smile looking at all of us, LOL!!!

Bricks are good for isolating, but only when done correctly, and there is also the issue of weight: Bricks are very heavy. There might be a problem with building a brick wall on top of your slab in an area that is too weak to support that weight properly. If the slab is resting directly on the ground, then you are probably OK, but don't take my word for it: hire a structural engineer ("calculista") to check.

Is a brick wall better than a Gypsum one? I have to ask at the store where i bought them if i can get my money back, i'm afraid they don't sell Gypsum and they can't change me one thing for the other. But for working i prefer gypsum by far!!

That's a very nice stone wall, and it is almost a shame to cover it up with a second wall! What is on the other side of that wall? I also see a simple wooden partition at the far end of the room... How is that built, and what is on the other side? What about the other two walls?

My idea was not to cover that stone wall. It took some time to me to make those nice creamish joints. I know it will be very reflective, but maybe i could balance those reflections by putting a very abstoptive wall in front?
At the other side of that wall there's only nature
Which wooden partition are you refering to? Maybe what you see are the BIG wooden slideable doors of the main entrance. I can get my van's back inside so i can take all the material down almost at the door of the rehearsing room, even if it's raining!! That door would be in the upper side of the layout i put, and the picture 1's little wooden door wall would be the down side of the layout. The room at the bottom right would be the CR, and the room over it the RR, with the floating floor i actually did. The long room on the left will be for my girlfriend's art world
The bottom wall of the layout leds to the house side, the rest of the outer stone walls in the layout are leading outside.

Thanks againd Stuart and i'll let you know if i get the money back for the bricks!! I hope so!!

I have a litte question about isolating materials in the walls. I have some 40mm Copropen (i don't know if you know this material) leafs here, like 15 leafs of 2x1 or so. Is it good to mix it with Rockwool for the double walls?

Cheers!!

[Soundman2020]

i read the rules befores starting the topic but i don't see the points i forgot, could you please tell me so i can give some more info?

Big blue bold italic letters. Point number 03. About half way down the page....

It's a pinewood male/female type (do you understand this?) floor,

Pino machihembrado?

Is a brick wall better than a Gypsum one?

It can be, as it is more massive and more rigid, but there's the problem of actually building it: as you build a brick wall, the mortar can drip down inside the cavity, at the back, where you can't see it, and also debris and waste can fall in there, bridging across the gap: that joins the two leaves solidly, thus greatly damaging your isolation. It's hard to prevent that from happening. And most brick layers just don't care: they'll dump all their garbage inside the wall: nails, broken bricks, bits of wood, dried waste mortar, etc...

My idea was not to cover that stone wall.

That might be a problem, if you need high levels of isolation. If you don't put another wall in front of that, then you are limited to "mass law" for your isolation. That might or might not be a problem....

I know it will be very reflective, but maybe i could balance those reflections by putting a very abstoptive wall in front?

I wasn't concerned about the acoustics in the room: stone walls can sound great. Rather, I was concerned about isolation.

I have a litte question about isolating materials in the walls. I have some 40mm Copropen (i don't know if you know this material) leafs here, like 15 leafs of 2x1 or so. Is it good to mix it with Rockwool for the double walls?

Do you have a link to the manufacturer's web site, so I can see what that stuff is?


- Stuart -

[BlackStorm]

Hey Soundman!

Thanks for answering again
OMG!!! I don't know how this happened, i promise i filled up my profile info, but somehow i didn't save it I'm really sorry.

By now, i'm very worried about taking the decission of if i should take the bricks back to the store (i asked the guy at the store if i could have my money back and he told me that i had to speak to the boss, so i don't know yet) and make the walls with wood frames and gypsum, or go on and begin with the bricks....

I'm also very confused about the floating floor man, i've just read the John's manual and see this link:

http://johnlsayers.com/Recmanual/Titles/Acoustics3.htm

Should i decouple it and use the wood and rockwool for the ceiling for example?
I've talked to the architect who led the project of our farm reconstruction, and he told me that the previous owner designed this studio side floor concrete for handling heavy machinery for wood sewage. Actually, when we bought the farm, there were several industrial wood sewers installed (the guy was a carpenter and we used to work there), so he said that there would be no problem at all for making double brickwalls

Pino machihembrado?

Exactly!

It can be, as it is more massive and more rigid, but there's the problem of actually building it: as you build a brick wall, the mortar can drip down inside the cavity, at the back, where you can't see it, and also debris and waste can fall in there, bridging across the gap: that joins the two leaves solidly, thus greatly damaging your isolation. It's hard to prevent that from happening. And most brick layers just don't care: they'll dump all their garbage inside the wall: nails, broken bricks, bits of wood, dried waste mortar, etc...

I thought on building the brickwalls by myself with some help. I was thinking on how to attach the isolating material to the second wall while you are building it? This is easier with the wood frames, but how could i do it with with bricks and leave an air camera properly?

That might be a problem, if you need high levels of isolation. If you don't put another wall in front of that, then you are limited to "mass law" for your isolation. That might or might not be a problem....

I prefer to check it out this way, and in case too much sound is getting outside, add a wood frame and another gypsum leaf. What do you think?

I wasn't concerned about the acoustics in the room: stone walls can sound great. Rather, I was concerned about isolation.

Oh, that's good news

Do you have a link to the manufacturer's web site, so I can see what that stuff is?

Ups, sorry for wasting your time, i could have done it before. Here you have it for making an idea: (it's pretty heavy)

http://www.metrasoni.es/html/copopren.h ... tAodUlgAng

And i have one more doubt about the finishing of the brickwalls in case i decide to go on. Let's say that i want to put a wooden leaf over the brickwall. If i put some thin wood frames, then these RC channels over, and then the wood with some rockwool in between, would i be creating a third horrible leaf? Should i put these John style horizontal woods with gaps between? I'll make a lil schem of how i'm thinking on doing it

Thanks again Stuart, very apreciated man.

Cheers!

Ekaitz

[BlackStorm]

Here's a very bad scheme of my idea of the double brickwall and the problem of the third leaf i was wondering for using the RC channels.

Brickwalls 1.JPG

Is this bad if i put rockwool between the wood and the brickwall? Which is the way to do it properly when using brickwalls?

*Air gap of 100mm and not 100cm of course!!

[BlackStorm]

I've been thinking pretty much about the floating floor, about brick walls, all the bricks i've already bought and i will have problems on having my money back etc. the ceiling...., this has been a reflexion week instead of action and a lot of reading in this fantastic forums (Thanks John for making it ).
So i've thought that i'm going to mix bricks and drywall. I've thought on making the outer wall of bricks, and the inner one with wood frames and drywall. I think it will be a great combination, as sound dislikes changing of media. And this way i won't have problems with the mortar bridging the two brick walls etc.
I will use the floor wood for framing the inner wall exactly where the floor edge is right now, this wall won't touch the two pylons, but the outer one will as you see in the next pic:

DSCN0821Lined.JPG

Will the outer brickwall being touching the pylons affect very negativelly? In the upper floor there will be no one while we're rehearsing.
I was also thinking on putting the bicks of the outer wall like this:

DSCN0820.jpg

As i've bought plenty of bricks for the double brickwall and i'm making only one now (i know that maybe i'll need a lil bit more bricks this way) i thought in putting them this way instead of stood up. Any opinion about this? I think the wall will be much more stable, solid and dense.

The other thing i'm concerned about is the ceiling. I attach two pics so you can make an idea of the details of how the upper floor is made:

DSCN0818.jpg

DSCN0819.jpg

Would it be enough putting RC channels across, double drywall hanging, and rockwool down and up with an air gap between?

And for finishing, this is the Copropen i mentioned above, 40mm blankets, it's pretty dense, and i used it for the house side upper floor drywalls:

DSCN0817.jpg

Thanks in advance for any ray of light. I'm very excited on starting with the walls!!!

[Soundman2020]

So i've thought that i'm going to mix bricks and drywall. I've thought on making the outer wall of bricks, and the inner one with wood frames and drywall.

That's actually a very good plan, and will work well.

I think it will be a great combination, as sound dislikes changing of media.

Weeelllllll.... sort of! .... But that's not the reason why this is a good idea. It's a good idea because it is a fully-decoupled 2-leaf MSM system, with lots of mass.

I will use the floor wood for framing the inner wall exactly where the floor edge is right now, this wall won't touch the two pylons, but the outer one will as you see in the next pic:

Excellent!

Will the outer brickwall being touching the pylons affect very negativelly? In the upper floor there will be no one while we're rehearsing.

No problem: that is all technically the "outer leaf", including the posts.

I was also thinking on putting the bicks of the outer wall like this:

I would suggest building that outer-leaf wall completely outside the posts, since brick has a much higher density than wood, and it would not be easy to tie the brick and wood together. So that wall can touch the posts, no problem, to make it easier for yourself, build it around the outside edge of the posts.

i thought in putting them this way instead of stood up. Any opinion about this? I think the wall will be much more stable, solid and dense.

Definitely like that, laid flat! That's the correct way to do it, always.

Would it be enough putting RC channels across, double drywall hanging, and rockwool down and up with an air gap between?

Probably not. It would be better to "beef up" that sub-floor with additional mass, in between the joists, then build your inner-leaf ceiling on top of the inner-leaf walls. You could inter-leave the inner-leaf joists between those outer-leaf joists, so that you don't waste any height.

this is the Copropen i mentioned above, 4mm blankets, it's pretty dense,

Mmmmm.... not sure where that would be any use.... The insulation you need inside the wall cavities is either mineral wool (50 kg/m3) or fiberglass (30 kg/m3).

- Stuart -

[BlackStorm]

Hey Stuart!!

So glad to hear from you again!!

The update is that i've taken all the floating floor out, and yes, i thought that i'd make the outer brick leaf around the posts, much easier for making the walls, and better for insulation probably, so the posts will be between the two walls.

I've decided to do this with calm and thinking things 3 or 4 times before doing them. I'm doing a Skecthup design (wow, this program is fantastic!!!), and i'm actually designing the inner wood frames, the inner leaf's shape.

And i've been reading more and more, and i'm realizing that i need a plan for ventilation, i thought it wouldn't be that important, but i see it is.

About the ceiling Stuart, i have a little problem with the Rockwall side. I don't know how to do it for the inner ceiling joists, where to rest? As you can see in the pics, the upper floor is resting in a long transversal joist. I thought on resting the inner leaf joists there, but i see two possible problems:

1: direct transmission from the inner ceiling to the upper floor structure.
2: i don't want to add more weight to that master joist, the ceiling will end up being pretty heavy, right?
3: i want to mantain the rocks visible

Another solution that i see at a first glance would be putting the inner ceiling joists transversally to the upper joists, not paralell, so in the rockwall side there would be the last inner ceiling joist parallel to the master upper joist, leaving a lil gap so there's no direct contact. But the problem with this solution would be that i sacrifice a lot of height in the live room.

Thanks for your help man! I would have messed it up if i wouldn't enter this forums and having your help!!

[BlackStorm]

A little update.

I've began with the brickwall It's a tedious job, but i hope the result will be worth it.

I've tried to learn a lil bit managing the fantastic Sketch Up program, and made a "bad" design of the outer and inner leafs of the LR. Here you have a snapshot:

Sketch Up 1.JPG

I know that the inner leaf's structure is not drawn correctly, don't worry, it won't be constructed like that, but just for making an idea. The air gap is way too big also, i'll make the inner leafs closer to the outer on the two parallel sides (window wall and the front wall to the window).

I have two main questions in mind:

1.- The rockwool (50kg/m3), how thick is it, or how much shall i put of it?
I have plenty of rockwool that i bought for the floating floor, 40mm thick, but i have no clue of it's density. Could i use it putting like three layers one over the other for each leaf?
2.- Is it a good idea making the brickwall of the CR/LR wall with those two diagonal shapes? Will that improve the sound in the CR in any way? Or is it a waste of time and effort? (i'm not putting diffussors or anything in the CR, i don't have too much budget)

Thanks again for any ray of light anyone could throw

[BlackStorm]

A better view of the CR for the two diagonal shapes idea on the brickwall. Just for not making a rectangular CR, i hope this will help for avoiding some stationary waves.

Sketch Up CR.jpg

[Soundman2020]

1.- The rockwool (50kg/m3), how thick is it, or how much shall i put of it?

As much as possible! Filling the entire cavity gives you maximum isolation. As long as you don't force it in: put in just enough to fill the gap, or a bit less. But check your local building code: there may be restrictions on that, for fire. So put in as much as code allows.

, but i have no clue of it's density.

You can figure it out, roughly: weigh a large sample, measure the dimensions of that sample, and do the math...

2.- Is it a good idea making the brickwall of the CR/LR wall with those two diagonal shapes? Will that improve the sound in the CR in any way?

If it is done right, as part of an RFZ design, then yes. But to be honest, you don't need that separating wall there at all: Just do the brick shell around both rooms, then build the two individual inner leaves as stud frames with drywall. Much easier like that.

Or is it a waste of time and effort?

Designing the CR correctly is the single most important thing you can do. Take your time, do the research, figure out which design concept you want to follow, then do the actual design and "test" it.

(i'm not putting diffussors or anything in the CR, i don't have too much budget)

You'll have to do something! All small rooms have modal issues, and need a certain amount of treatment (certain number of sabins of absorption). Regardless of room shape, you will still need treatment, and lots of it. Maybe bot diffusers, but certainly lots of bass trapping.

Just for not making a rectangular CR, i hope this will help for avoiding some stationary waves.

Standing waves. But no, it wont make any difference. Standing waves (more correctly "room modes") are a consequence of the dimensions and volume of the room, and not much related to the angles of the walls. While it is true that angling a wall so that it is not parallel to the wall on the other side of the room will eliminate the axial modes associated with those two walls, at the same time it creates a new set of tangential and oblique modes that were not there before. So you gain nothing, except to make it far more difficult to predict what the modal behavior will be.

- Stuart -

[BlackStorm]

Thanks a lot for your wise words Stuart!!!
Ok, great, simplier, and no waste of space

I have just one question about the CR framing you mentioned. If i do an individual inner framing for the LR and CR, i'd have the brickwall between the LR and CR, wouldn't that create a so badly seen three leaf wall between the LR and CR?
I was thinking on finishing the brickwall on the CR side with Wood panels or something attached straight to the brickwall. Or would i need a framing in the CR aswell?
By the moment, my biggest concern is that i don't want the rehearsing sound coming out to the house side. The CR will be much lower at volume levels of course, and i won't use it too much while recording sessions (my idea is recording like 2 or 3 bands a year, my band's demos maybe, and some friends from time to time. The rest of the year i will use the CR as a music creation room, so not too loud).

Thanks again man, your help is being extremely helpful. If you ever have any electronics issue or tube amps questions or wanna mod something, please ask me!!

[Soundman2020]

i'd have the brickwall between the LR and CR, wouldn't that create a so badly seen three leaf wall between the LR and CR?

Yup. That's why I said: "you don't need that separating wall there at all: Just do the brick shell around both rooms, then build the two individual inner leaves as stud frames with drywall. Much easier like that."

I was thinking on finishing the brickwall on the CR side with Wood panels or something attached straight to the brickwall. Or would i need a framing in the CR aswell?

Depends on what design concept you plan to use for the control rool! LEDE, RFZ, CID, NER, MyRoom, etc. All have different methods and different treatments for each of the walls.


- Stuart -

[BlackStorm]

Hey Stuart!!

Yup. That's why I said: "you don't need that separating wall there at all: Just do the brick shell around both rooms, then build the two individual inner leaves as stud frames with drywall. Much easier like that."

Okay. But as i bought enough bricks for building two leafs of brickwall, but putting them stood up, now putting just one leaf of brickwall putting them laid down will give me almost the same area, so i will build it with bricks And i'm getting used to manage the bricks as the long brickwall that surrounds the CR and LR is getting higher!

Depends on what design concept you plan to use for the control rool! LEDE, RFZ, CID, NER, MyRoom, etc. All have different methods and different treatments for each of the walls.

Ufff!! I didn't know about all those designs! Is it in John's Book? I've read it but didn't see it.
I know that this is not suitable saying in this forums (where tons of knowledge and experience is used for improving everyday all the techniques) but i'm not looking forward a professional CR. I know i will regret it in the future, but by the moment, as i have the rockwall on one side (so i can't build a symetrical 6º angled walls if i want to keep it), i will check how the CR sounds leaving it rectangular, and with some bass traps in the corners. My main pursue on this project is having a well isolated LR, and a nice enviroment for music creation in the CR (maybe any of the designs you mentioned is suitable for me, i will investigate). Sorry for my lack of interest on doing it as it should be done, but i'm very lack of time and budget.
Gracias hermano!