Non parallel double walls (is it good to spread resonances?)

Started by Spyrow on 20 September 2007. 32 replies. In the Library under Fundamentals.

Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 9443.

I've not found directly this question in the forum so I've done a new thread which can be helpful for other people. The natural frequency of a double wall is related to the air gap dimension so varying that gap would lead to different natural frequencies. If you vary it along the wall, i.e: doing non-parallel frames when building a double wall, the natural frequency will vary too. My question is, would this help in any way to improve the isolation dip at the natural frequency like a porous material in the air gap helps? Has anyone tried it? Is it a common technique? Here is an explanatory image of a possible design using non-parallel wall frames:
External image, not preserved — original: http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1434/1437477531_497272f273_o.gif
nobody?
that you may be correct suprises you? :-) it would seem that if you have the option/room to create non-parallel walls (like many small details) it can be beneficial (in small amounts but cumulative).
Well, I was looking for experience in this kind of construction too :) None of the books I've read even mentioned the possibility.
Seems like construction of this kind would make the acoustician's job more elaborate in that a consistant noise reduction ratio expected from consistant mass-air-mass dimensions no longer exists?
xSpace wrote:
Seems like construction of this kind would make the acoustician's job more elaborate in that a consistant noise reduction ratio expected from consistant mass-air-mass dimensions no longer exists?
I don't understand you :( I'm just asking if somebody has some experience because I'm not so sure that this would be a good thing. Instead of one strong resonance you are going to have several weaker ones.
I think the reason you cannot find anything about doing a double walled system using non parallel walls is because it is not done. All things considered, if you develop a double wall system using the same air space (parallel) you can more accurately predict what the transmission loss of this wall will be.
xSpace wrote:
All things considered, if you develop a double wall system using the same air space (parallel) you can more accurately predict what the transmission loss of this wall will be.
I couldn't predict what the TL will be but I think that's not important when isolating, is it? I mean, you can't improve the things in the other room, if you get leakage at 40 Hz you can't do anything. It's not like acoustic treatment of the room where you can build a slat resonator and get rid of the 40 Hz reverberation.
You might want to get a book or two on the subject...we have reached the extent of my knowledge.
Spyrow wrote:
It's not like acoustic treatment of the room where you can build a slat resonator and get rid of the 40 Hz reverberation.
actually, walls are an acoustic treatment as well. walls have some qualities which absorb sound. a slat resonator wouldn't be my first choice for 40hz unless you had some deep space (actually most anything to treat 40hz will be big...) but your walls can "treat" low frequencies to a degree and the space between them plays a role in what frequencies are affected. angled walls will change the characteristics of this. like many other things involving angled walls, you can approximate with upper and lower bounds, and average values to estimate TL, but you'll have to measure in the end...
Gullfo, it was just an example. I wanted to say that when you have a bad sound in a room (for example, a mode which boosts 40 Hz) you can treat it to solve it (for example, with a deep slat resonator, or whatever). But when you are hearing the 40 Hz of the bass player who's playing in the adyacent room you can't do nothing, that sound is going to be recorded. You can't solve the isolation problems the way you can solve the room acoustic problems, can you?
xSpace wrote:
You might want to get a book or two on the subject...we have reached the extent of my knowledge.
Thanks Brien for your answers :) I've read everything I know about studio design: Philip Newell, Jeff Cooper, Alton Everest (both books), Rod Gervais, Mitch Gallager and even the handbook of Paul White, but they didn't mention a word about this. If there is another insteresting read please tell!
Spyrow Sorry for the rest (no time to be busy with it). I had a crash and must reïnstall office (but also Windows itself seems hurt). I doubt that angling your walls will do a lot in TL gain, taken into account that you fill them with wool. I even assume that making a large wall will mainly be defined by the smallest part of the cavity (I don't mean things as studs etc.) This will more react as a 2D than as a 3D space. And if you think in function of cavity resonances they are rarely defining in the overall TL for music but the MSM does. Even for window panes, without whatever absorption there isn't a clear TL gain by angling them, but their the averaged cavity will be more defining (no wool filling unlike walls), but again less by cavity resonances than by dynamic stiffness of that air-spring (MSM). PS: if you shrink (rescale) that picture as allowed by the forum rules here this thread is easier to read without needing to scroll for any sentence.
Eric_Desart wrote:
PS: if you shrink (rescale) that picture as allowed by the forum rules here this thread is easier to read without needing to scroll for any sentence.
Ups! I didn't notice, sorry! solved already.
If you want to spread the resonance a bit more, you can also do opposite walls in 16" and 24" stud spacing so that they have different resonant frequencies. For instance: Front wall 24" OC studs Rear wall 16" OC studs Left wall 24" OC studs Right wall 16" OC studs. It's not going to do a ton but will help a bit and isn't difficult to do nor does it cost a lot. Bryan
Thanks! I have to go to work now, I'll answer this night!
bpape wrote:
It's not going to do a ton but will help a bit and isn't difficult to do nor does it cost a lot. Bryan
Can you describe/explain what help, even that bit, one could expect? The question relates to TL. The overall TL is the averaged surface weighted TL of the walls. The weakest TL points are the dominant factors. Giving a wall locally different TL properties, only means that you weaken overall TL since it are the weakest points of the different TL curves which will become the dominant factor in the TL averaging algorithm. If I combine a thin wall and a thick wall with different MSM in one wall, I also have different resonances. Indeed it helps to get more spread resonances and simultaneously a worse wall since the one with the highest resonance (read: worst TL) will be strongly defining. As I read it, spyrow's assumption related to cavity resonances where indeed he can get a spread. The question is what does this bring? By definition this sits in the higher frequency range already where the relationship wavelength versus cavity width jumps in. And asymmetry in function of TL is mostly in favor of the worst parts (surface weighted).
If we do our design correctly, each wall will have a different resonant frequency so there is theoretically half of the energy at each WALL resonance to be transmitted through the space to the next wall. If then we also take it a step further and have different spacing between walls, those cavities will also have different resonances. Even if we don't do different cavities and assume that it will all average out to a single resonance for the cavity itself, the mass on one side of the equation will have things spread more evenly. No one frequency will dominate. Bryan
Bryan, It should be good that you do some real calculations with TL, and you maybe will see and understand. If you build a wall enclosing a room, the best TL is this wall build-up with the best TL properties. Whatever mix you make with other wall build-ups with less properties will result in a worse overall TL. It's that simple. And you have to see this in frequency bands (surface weighted) and from there calculating overall TL again. If you make a related dB calculation you will notice how dominant these worse wall properties will define the end result. My post relates to simple acoustics and log math in dB's. Just a strict theoretical simplified example: If I build an interior wall (assuming no flanking or whatever other sound paths occur) of TL = 100 dB over 50 % of the surface, and the other 50 % empty (equaling a wall with TL = 0 dB) then I have a overall TL of 3 dB.
That's the point: is it good to spread the resonances? (indeed I'm changing the thread title a bit) From what I've read it's good that each leaf has different resonances because one resonance will be absorbed by the other leaf (at least in part). If they share their resonance then that frequencies will pass without opposition through the complete wall. Eric, I was going to ask you in relation to your excel file exactly about this, because when you choose the same wall there (same thickness & density), there is no drawback as I would have expected. So I was going to ask you if you think that a coincidence in the resonant frequencies is not bad or you didn't take it into account. If you build a 2cm and 1000kg/m3 leaf and a 10cm and 2000kg/m3 for a MSM is going to be worst than if you build two 10cm and 2000kg/m3 leaves. Ok, but... can't you improve that TL at resonant frequencies building a 10cm and 1800kg/m3 and 8cm and 2000kg/m3 leaves for example? I mean, without decreasing the overall TL, or just a bit, something that will be worth. I ask from the ignorance.
Spyrow, Please first define which resonances or phenomena you exactly refer to. Mass-spring resonances? Panel modes (this are also resonances)? Cavity resonances, coincidence? Other? To keep things simple. In studio use the MSM is the dominant factor. The lowest MSM with the highest damping gives the highest overall TL (to be corrected with mass law). It's extremely difficult to damp this MSM. The only results I know, as a matter of speech, worth looking at to control this is by Green Glue (and comparable if exists). This is not a plug or spam as called once, but my personal physical thoughts. Test are done with different combinations of Gypsum board thicknesses. They hardly influence MSM or its damping. And what they do in function of coincidence hardly matters, since that's rarely defining in overall TL. And what's if often called sympathic resonance is a concept that sounds good, and often used just because of that. By definition the both leafs of a double leaf wall can ONLY move in phase, a couple of octaves BELOW the MSM, where it acts again as if it was a single leaf wall with a mass equaling the total of both panels. The reinforcement at MSM and isolation higher up is CAUSED by, and RELATED to the phase relation/shift between the 2 leafs. Sound does NOT go trough wall panel 1 and then enters wall panel 2. The TL defining part of a wall is acoustically a complete interconnected mass-spring system, not a panel, then air, and again a panel. And related to your other questions, the Excel file I gave you here gives the answers and all the rest are limitations by practical circumstances and mounting methods which are hard to predict, which is why walls are measured in labs in the first place. The file does not only calculate MSM, but also gives you the relative difference in TL expressed in dB and percent of different combinations, taking the mass law into account. But if you read the help page (which is what I wrote it for) you can see that you must become careful when comparing complete deviating systems, since most heavy walls in practice don't bother too much about theoretical mass-law calculations. Hence this uncertainty influences the relative comparison with lightweight systems in a hard to quantify manner.
I didn't read your answer to bpape (I was writing my post) so I probably asked the same things two times. I'm sorry. When I was talking about non-parallel walls I was talking about cavity resonances. When I was talking about different thickness and density leaves I was talking about single leaves resonances. And I thought that each of these had relation a direct relation with the whole system resonance, but it seems I was wrong: you state that the direct relation is with the worse leaf. Of course I read carefully the help in the file, which I said was just an example. I've reread again all the thread and now I understand better what you are arguing. I trust you in this theme, but anyway, I want to know your opinion (if you have one) about each book which is arguing the opposite. For example, this link from the University of Western Australia which says this about improving TL:
On the other hand, it is possible to create composite or sandwich panels whose total SRI does approach that of a double wall, if the following points are considered. - Well sealed cavities can result in an increase in sound insulation well above mass law (6-8dB), assuming the cavity is at least 100mm deep. - Use of layers of different thickness can greatly assists in mis-matching resonant and critical frequencies across the panel. - The use of absorbent materials within the cavities can help to further reduce transmission. - Only resilient elastic materials should be used as wall ties and suspension members to reduce any direct connection between layers. - If required, only widely spaced and staggered studs should be used within partitions. - Caulking and sealants should be used to eliminate perimeter sound leaks.
Well, I would like to clarify that they define this as "sandwitch" which is indeed the name here for a "drywall-resilent-drywall" structure but talking about 10cm cavities and studs... they refer to double lightweight walls and what they name as double walls is double heavyweight walls. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm sure I've read it in other books but now I don't have time to look for it.
Spyrow wrote:
For example, this link from the University of Western Australia which says this about improving TL:
On the other hand, it is possible to create composite or sandwich panels whose total SRI does approach that of a double wall, if the following points are considered. <snip all other points> - Use of layers of different thickness can greatly assists in mis-matching resonant and critical frequencies across the panel.
It's nicer that you write: School of Architecture and Fine Arts (somehow a dep. of or related to that Univ. you refer) I know that site, and it's rather simplified stuff. Often an architectural education does not go very deep in physics and acoustics. They all have seen it. Their education is very broad but not in-depth in all areas. And they think in standard building practices. Note that Architects use acousticians for critical projects. Off-topic (but not complete) The most fun experience I had (on the net, it was around 2000 I guess) with someone proudly emphasizing, that he didn't need too much explanation since he was an architectural designer referring to his related acoustic education. He only needed answer on a minor question he couldn't find the necessary data for. Should he better use additional Homasote or gypsum board to obtain his targeted 130 dB isolation (or was it 120, no I think 130, anyhow somewhere there)? He just came still somewhat short in his actual design. Believe it or not, but that was NO typo. He really meant what he said. :) Hence I lovely asked if he was aiming at the Nobel prize. But practical: 1) critical frequency = coincidence frequency which I discussed before, and hence hardly matters. The whole acoustics world and standards refers to STC and Rw or single number ratings derived from these or yielding comparable results. Even standard weightings for double leaf systems are mainly defined by the lower frequencies, hence the referred phenomenon is even for traditional office or household applications relative little defining. In our language we speak about "buigslappe" = bending floppy (AFAIK no English translation available) walls. This refers to panels with a coincidence (depending on author) above 2000 but mostly > 2500 Hz. This covers standard gypsum boards. Even in traditional building practices one sees panels with a coincidence > 2500 Hz as a panel where this coincidence hardly or limited matters anymore. Hence one knows the phenomenon, describes it, but simultaneously tells that when high enough it doesn't or hardly matters anymore. Hence bothering a problem which isn't a problem, sounds learned but only has sense in few occasions. The idea of a good wall is keep coincidence high enough and MSM low enough. For music and studio applications it even hardly matters at all anymore since it NEVER (unless you build some sick wall) will be defining in whatever music single number rating, not even close. Have you ever in your live heard that people complained about the highs and harmonics they were disturbed by resulting from their neighbors music? They hate these low frequent beats and stuff, causing the glasses to travel around in their cabinets. The coincidence frequency becomes important, when one uses material where this coincidence shifts to an area located in the audio range which is defining for overall TL. Hence it can easier be a problem or limit for cellular concrete, thin brick walls, thick glass panes etc. 2) Mismatching resonant frequencies by combining different thicknesses. This is the other non-coincidence part of this sentence of your quote. I assume they refer to panel resonances here = panel modes. Unlike the coincidence where indeed the coincidence (critical) frequency shift by altering thickness panel (effect described above and explained here: Jeff's explanation of critical frequency ), panel modes are defined by the length/width measures (and speed of sound) of the panel, NOT by the thickness. This kind of resonance is related to modes caused by reflection of the waves (in the panel itself) at the edges of the panel (comparable with 2D plane room modes). The only manner to shift this is altering the size (length, width or both) of the panel (again like 2D plane room modes = read e.g. axial and tangential room modes in one plane). This is ALL stylized and rough, and to be honest I don't feel like responding extensively to every related sentence you encounter, but as you can see what you read was superficial, not you but the text (and for me even partly questionable). And what you also could do is checking for yourself in the enormous amount of NRC/IRC measurement data to compare stuff, http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=1467 or at the Green Glue site which explains a lot of principles in a rather simple but accurate manner. The main question if you design whatever is: What is important to obtain my goals, what are the main defining factors? If you have the courage you can play with this MS Excel file which really can give you the feel what the limiting factors are in function of overall insulation related to specific normalized sound spectra (as speech, music, STC, Rw, OITC, Traffic and so on). It includes > 50 Australian Boral gysum wall measurements allowing to check the difference between a lot of TL single number ratings and what the limiting bands are to be improved to increase these overall ratings. You can theoretically improve or decrease any single frequency band and check the effect on the overall insulation. As such you really can remove, improve or worsen that coincidence dip and see how it influences overall insulation. You'll notice that it hardly will influence overall TL. As such you can improve or worsen individual low frequency bands and see how fast/dominant they will translate in the overall TL Hence it's very interactive. http://www.fileupyours.com/files/130337 ... ctor03.zip
Spyrow wrote:
Thanks Brien for your answers :) I've read everything I know about studio design:
Yes sir, I am aware that you have education in what you speak of. I appreciate you giving me your thoughts freely. Thanks again,
Thanks for the answer, and many thanks for the file Eric. I'll read it carefully and play with it for sure -I have the courage-. Indeed I read about it in your studiotips post about TL and I wrote you a PM last week asking precisely for it. The PM is still in my outbox so I'm deleting it. Many thanks, really.
Eric_Desart wrote:
It's nicer that you write: School of Architecture and Fine Arts (somehow a dep. of or related to that Univ. you refer) I know that site, and it's rather simplified stuff. Often an architectural education does not go very deep in physics and acoustics.
I think there is a difference between "simplified" and "wrong", so if you allow me I have to keep asking. I want you to know I'm not against you, I'm learning from you (which I greatly appreciate). Don't worry, I'm not going to describe you here each book which states that sentence. Great because I don't have to look for them, but you and me know that it's a common commentary on the theme, not only in the architectural enviroment. I'll go directly to ask you about which I think is the source of this widespread comment: the panel modes formula.
Eric_Desart wrote:
panel modes are defined by the length/width measures (and speed of sound) of the panel, NOT by the thickness. This kind of resonance is related to modes caused by reflection of the waves (in the panel itself) at the edges of the panel (comparable with 2D plane room modes). The only manner to shift this is altering the size (length, width or both) of the panel (again like 2D plane room modes = read e.g. axial and tangential room modes in one plane).
I understand what you are saying and it makes sense for me! But why is this formula of panel modes including thickness too? Fr = 0.45 * vL * b[(1/l)^2 + (1/h)^2] (vL = speed of sound, b=thickness, l=length, h=height) Is it wrong? I found this formula in the link I gave you, -which you ridiculed because of its architectural base- but also in the Excel file to calculate panel modes which Rod Gervais distributes along with his book (Resonance Toolbox.xls). The exact formula incluiding thickness. I'm not 100% sure of where did he get the formula but he mention only this book in the file: Fundamentals of Noise and Vibration Analysis for Engineers by Michael Peter Norton (Cambridge University Press). That's my only question, is this formula wrong? I want to be sure of what I learn, and this is very controversial.
And what you also could do is checking for yourself in the enormous amount of NRC/IRC measurement data to compare stuff, http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=1467 or at the Green Glue site which explains a lot of principles in a rather simple but accurate manner.
I'll do it for sure. I've seen the Green Glue tests (very interesting material indeed) but I'll check the site again.