green glue really necessary

John Sayers wrote:

John as you know yourself, being happy with it is no guarantee of a functionality.

fair enough Eric - but the "WHO" is happy must be taken into consideration surely. Bruce Swedien is one of the world's top engineers. He works with Quincy Jones and recorded the greatest selling album of all time - Thriller. He has a series of grammy awards and nominations. He has just completed construction of his new studio. From the few pics I've seen it appears it is all built with single stud construction yet it is near a busy train line and he was concerned about the occasional train whistle disturbing his sessions. When he opened up his favourite condensor microphone in the studio he was satisfied because he couldn't hear the train or it's whistle. Something must be working ;) cheers john

John, Understood - however - with Green GLue - if you construct with their best results - the cost is 177.48 +S&H (per case of 12 tubes) that's 4 sheets @ 3 tubes per 4x8 sheet - with a resultant cost of 1.39 psf USD........ you add the drywall and standard required caulks, taping and finishes M+L. On the other hand is this product - I went looking - and here's their quoted pricing: IsoDamp Ultra Walls: $4.25 per sq. ft., IsoDamp Ultra Ceilings: $4.50 per sq. ft., WallDamp Standard Walls and Ceilings: $3.25 per sq. ft., WallDamp Economy Walls, Ceilings and Floors: $1.36 per sq. ft. you add the drywall and standard required caulks, taping and finishes M+L. Now - does their economy package equal GG in performance- or is it their Ultra? The only way I could know for sure would be to see results from testing performed at an Independant Lab........... If it's the standard or better - than GG delivers big time at a much more reasonable cost than their product. I can't tell you the answer - you can't tell me the answer - and they won't tell either one of us. Let's face it- if money is no object - I can build you the quietest studio in the world - and I don't need GG or ASC to make it happen......... BTW I just did some digging - his studio construction is double wall - room within a room.......... built within an existing steel building on his property........... It doesn't take magic to make anyone happy - just results. The only real question (from me on my client's behalf ) is: Was this the most cost effective method of acheiving the results we reached? If I can't justify the investment - I won't throw my client's pocketbook at it......... With ASC I just don't have enough info - so I need to see lab tests before I make a recommendation for anyone to invest in their product........ Heck, it took Green GLue 1 1/2 years of providing me copies of the lab results from their tests before I would recommend their product to anyone. Sincerely, Rod

Sure - I understand where are coming from Rod.

Let's face it- if money is no object - I can build you the quietest studio in the world - and I don't need GG or ASC to make it happen.........

For sure :D here are pics Bruce posted of his studio construction. Doesn't look like room in room to me. cheers john

John, Posted at ASC

"He's using a steel building that came with his new property as the base structure, and adding a "room within a room" concept to achieve good sound isolation"

Perhaps his builders wait until they finish one wall 110 percent before they begin the next one............ Rod

Here are some related links http://acapella.harmony-central.com/sho ... ?t=1509505 http://acapella.harmony-central.com/for ... 83&page=55 And this is the studio: http://www.asc-studio-acoustics.com/westviking.htm Clear is that Art Noxon (ASC) and Bruce Swedien are personal friends (words of Bruce). The whole studio is ASC, hence nobody ever compared systems in function of TL. It's just a complete ASC studio including treatment and tube traps. There are no data about which TL is needed to make Bruce happy, nor which is obtained, neither what the typical ASC principles/system specific contributed to obtain that. That a wall becomes better by not screwing it directly against a single wooden stut is clear, one can't build a worse wall than doing that. Hence this does not contribute to adding whatever exact or useful info, to the complete lacking info on the ASC site. It's often using big names, used by companies as substitute for technical data. Using these names and references is good, but not as substitute. Making records is, besides needing the audio engineering training, an art. TL and physical principles are science which can be measured and explained (at least more than what's used here). Substituting this by big names in the audio world (often not educated whatsoever in this physical part, I know some big names myself personally) should be fought by forums, not supported. This technique makes me very suspicious at least about price/quality ratio. And it's this technique of playing on emotions, which allows people to buy stuff they better shouldn't have. And the audio world is a typical world sensitive to this. To Brien aka xSpace: I do thank you for your last response which I DO respect and which calls for courage. Shake hands .... My reaction was indeed triggered by your post, making you responsible for, and confronting you with your own words. People DO rely on these contributions. It's one of the biggest problems on the net: How do layman distinguish between contradicting info? How to rate the related background, knowledge and drive of the contributors? This is in fact what for me this was about, not discussing GG/ASC or anyone or anything else. I don't mind what people use or don't use, as long as they can decide for themselves on real arguments.

I'm so glad you "unwithdrew" from the discussion, Eric. :-) Aagin, you raise great points. I keep drawing parallels in my mind between the soundproofing industry and the nutritional supplement industry. As a rule, nutritional supplements are marketed here in the United States as miracles, often with lots of testimonials and moneyback guarantees. They rely on the placebo effect to propel sales. Rarely, if ever, is scientific evidence presented to support the claims. Eric's main point -- one we all would be wise to take away from all of this -- is that building for isolation is indeed a science, so when considering products or techniques, we should all insist on seeing the evidence that it works and mitigate the value of marketing and testimonials, regardless of how fancy the materials or the fame of the endorsers. That is not to say thay all things not proven to work do not work -- for everything proven to work was at one time not proven... But claims need credible evidence to be believed, and testimonials do not qualify as evidence. They are a distraction. I hope ASC's products are everything they say they are and that they can someday publicize the credible evidence to back their claims. Until then, however, their products, in my opinion, should not be recommended here. --Keith :mrgreen:

Wow.... First of all, let me say thanks to all that have contributed to this thread, and especially to Eric for rejoining. Second, most of what I am going to say below, hopefully :) will be buffered by what I'll say at the end. So, before anyone thinks I'm trying to poke the bear, read through to the end. Observation: I think it is very interesting that Bruce Swedien is using at least two techniques (all I have seen of his build is on this thread) That are generally frowned upon in this group. First, he's using a steel building, which appears to be pretty off the shelf, and he is using unproven materials. He also seems to not be building a room within a room. (or so it appears from the photos posted.) I'm curious as to if/how he floated his floors :shock: I can see wood, not concrete under there. :) Even if the final build is a room within a room, he's still violating at least two standards of this forum. (the steel movie studio mega-structure of Rod's notwithstanding) Keith: You and I have had our disagreements, and this seems a good example of where we have been. (love ya' bud, just keep reading) >>>>> I will say that there are a couple of things (as pointed out by Kieth) that we can learn from his build, or at least what we know, or can assume, of it. 1. Soundproofing is an ever evolving science. 2. Sometimes the unproven (that which lacks data) works. GG is an example. I'm sure it worked just as well before Rod got his hands on the data. Bravo! Rod. Manufacturers need to make that data available. 3. As Kieth also said " It always depends on the details of the individual project and the needs of the owner". >>>>>> Not that I will in any way presume to have the skills or knowledge that Bruce possesses, but I am building within a steel building using products with no data to back their claims. (I used the recommendation of a good friend with a few (note understatement) years of studio experience. Now the confession part - nothing I haven't said before. I do this for the benefit of others. Unless you have a lot of money or the personal experience of Bruce, it is much more advised to stick with tried, true and data exposed methods. In truth, for what we know, Bruce (having been a close friend to the manufacturer) may be privy to the data. For me personally, my choices were due to the money and materials at hand with regard to my personal needs. Unfortunately, I did miss a few things in the beginnning because I found this forum too late to fix a few of them. However, the more I read on this forum, the more ways that I find to remedy those as well. :) And, in spite of those shortcomings, so-far so-good. Just my unsolicited, possibly misguided, two cents. Not to mention a HUGE thanks to everyone here to not only impart great advice, but your patience to bare with those like myself that are still learning. Also, many Kudos to those of you who have corrected yourselves and/or altered your posts in the interest of keeping the peace and still maintain the integrity of your position. I am on several forums and that is not often the case. Congratulations for being gentlemen. It is much appreciated. :D Scott

Eric - the link you gave was for Bruce's old mixing room from 2003. He had made the statement (on the Harmony central site) that you should avoid parallel walls in a studio and then posted that picture with all the tube traps. (he promotes tube traps on their site) I questioned him as to why he makes one statement about parallel walls then shows a rectangular room full of tube traps. He got extremely upset (he's easily upset BTW) and left the forum in a huff and I was castigated severely by the whole group for daring to question the "Master". :shock: deja vu. When he posted his new studio he added that the soundproofing was possible because of his mate at ASC, I then provided a link to GG claiming fairness in spamming ;) Fortunately that was accepted by the mods. :lol: I had another cross with him when he stated that loud monitors damage your hearing. I objected stating that loud distorting PAs and unexpected loud sounds cause damage but high quality speakers in a proper room under your control is Ok, in fact it's a great experience and after years of loud quality monitors I've experienced no damage to my hearing. :D So as you can see I'm no great fan of Mr Swedien and his views, I was just offering an alternative to GG in the interests of balanced spamming. Scott - you may note that I did not object to the idea of starting with a steel shed when it came up in another thread. In fact they have certain advantages, they are cheap, easy to assemble and they don't have trusses so you can utilise the whole space. cheers john

John Sayers wrote:

Scott - you may note that I did not object to the idea of starting with a steel shed when it came up in another thread. In fact they have certain advantages, they are cheap, easy to assemble and they don't have trusses so you can utilise the whole space. cheers john

I think that I may have missed or forgotten that. :oops: Thank you for the reminder. :) However, I have seen a few others that were pretty emphatic in their disapproval. Not that I entirely disagree with them, steel buildings have their drawbacks, but as you said, they have their advantages. Prost! Scott

just came back to this thread. All I can say is wow! and thanks for all your input (and yelling at each other) (just kidding). p.s. the studio construction is going really well. We are getting tons of free insulation, doors, and lumber from a recording studio nearby which is being taken apart....what luck!!

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: All this energy ...., for nothing ..... you're just moving another studio ....