We are building a project studio with double studs and two layers of drywall. In the interest of saving around $1000 US, do we need green glue? Sorry for such a newb question.
green glue really necessary
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 9245.
That depends. But reading your question literally then NO ...
GG exists for a couple of years now.
All over the world, people have build gypsum board walls totaling square miles, without GG, before and during the existence of GG. And most likely GG covers only fraction of a percent of the walls build nowadays.
Most of these walls fulfill their purpose (otherwise most of these architects, engineers and DIYers should be idiots).
A BMW exists. Does one need it do drive? A 2CV did a nice job as well.
Should I personally use it in a studio (assuming drywall constructions)? If the budget was available (hence conditional), probably yes.
It's not only TL, but GG makes mounting errors or weaknesses, difficult edge and frame adjustments, flanking, drum-skin effect very forgivable.
I find it very useful to have around in such circumstances. :) But I admit that others pay the bill.
You can use just about any high quality silicone/polyurethane caulking to achieve the same type of result. You may consider a mastic inbetween the layers of rock and construction glue and screws to attach the first and following layer. Minimize vibration is what you want to achieve.
Thanks,
Brien
Brien aka xSpace, You've no idea whatsoever what you're talking about.. And you mix materials through one another, without knowing the acoustic difference between them. Please explain how CLD (Constrained Layer Damping) and silicone are related. And the polyurethane? Which mastic and how applying that without weakening/degenerating the paper of the drywall? Can you link to such an application somewhere? If you vaguely assume something, don't sell it as knowledge. People might count on your words. Hildy asked about GG. You can build without, but when used the function of GG is very specific and hard to substitute by some arbitrary materials.You can use just about any high quality silicone/polyurethane caulking to achieve the same type of result. You may consider a mastic inbetween the layers of rock and construction glue and screws to attach the first and following layer. Minimize vibration is what you want to achieve. Thanks, Brien
You can also use bubble gum between the layers of sheetrock!! GET CHEWING!!!
Acoustic properties is not a concern for me in the installation of building materials. That they do not rub together under heavy vibration is.Minimize vibration is what you want to achieve
In the business they call it "sizing up a wall." A good primer paint will offset the effects of mating differing materials such as wall paper, mastics, etc. What we go for in this specific area is to prevent leakage and vibration. If you take a look at green glue you will see that they give reference to the product VS. nothing. That is not a fair assessment of what to expect if another product is used. AND...other products have been used for many years. Just because you cannot see the sun behind the clouds does not mean it is not there, Briendegenerating the paper of the drywall
1) I followed Green Glue's evolution from the beginning. All kinds of comparisons where done. 2) I invited you to give a link to a related application. 3) Just tell, no vague metaphorical comments please.1) If you take a look at green glue you will see that they give reference to the product VS. nothing. That is not a fair assessment of what to expect if another product is used. 2) AND...other products have been used for many years. 3) Just because you cannot see the sun behind the clouds does not mean it is not there, Brien
Brien, you really don't understand how this works at all.......... You stated in an earlier post:Acoustic properties is not a concern for me in the installation of building materials. That they do not rub together under heavy vibration is.Minimize vibration is what you want to achieveIn the business they call it "sizing up a wall." A good primer paint will offset the effects of mating differing materials such as wall paper, mastics, etc. What we go for in this specific area is to prevent leakage and vibration. If you take a look at green glue you will see that they give reference to the product VS. nothing. That is not a fair assessment of what to expect if another product is used. AND...other products have been used for many years. Just because you cannot see the sun behind the clouds does not mean it is not there,degenerating the paper of the drywall
Any of the 3 materials you mentioned above have the effect of changing the properties of the drywall by essentially making the 2 pieces one unit. The materials also cure and will not allow shearing to take place in the body of the adhesive.. Green Glue (on the other hand) is not an adhesive - it is not joining the sheets together......... it is a constrained layer damper - it never completesly dries out - it remains in a state that allows IT to physically shear as a part of the isolation process. They can't compare it to those other products you speak of BECAUSE THEY DO NOT DO WHAT IT DOES......... And as far as this statement you made -You can use just about any high quality silicone/polyurethane caulking to achieve the same type of result. You may consider a mastic inbetween the layers of rock and construction glue and screws to attach the first and following layer.
If the material is installed, and it makes noise because of the sheets rubbing together, then it simply isn't installed correctly.... whoever installed it should be thrown out of the industry - because they are a butcher - not a drywall hanger......... The question is about the ability of the products (as a whole assembly) to acoustically isolate one area or space - from another area or space........ That has had to to do (at least up until green glue anyway) with mass - mass and more mass......... you may well lower TL values by making it all one thick piece of drywall Eric is world reknowned in his expertise on the subject of acoustics - perhaps it would be worth your while to stop talking and quietly learn something rather than suggest that you know things you do not......... we have enough of a hard time on the internet stopping the spread of misinformation as it is......... Sincerely, Rod edited by Rod for contentAcoustic properties is not a concern for me in the installation of building materials. That they do not rub together under heavy vibration is.
Brien, while I can appreciate an intent to save fellow forum members money, by offering an opinion that a product is not or may not be worth the price charged for it -- something we more informed members do all the time here -- I do have to side intellectually with Eric and Rod on the facts they stated in defending Green Glue on its merits, while also offering the generic "it's not for everyone" disclaimer because there may be times less expensive (and less effective) techniques would fit the need.
I also agree with them, respectfully, that you really are quite ignorant on the facts you stated. I mean no disrespect when I say that. I was woefully ignorant of this stuff myself three years ago, before I discovered this resource.
I will say, for the record, that I don't aprove of the tone being used in some of the rebuttals against you... :( Rod, and to a lesser extent, Eric -- please, let's tone it down a notch or two. I know it's tiresome to argue with uninformed newcomers in allegiance to intellectual integrity for the record, but I think we'll all be better off if we err on the side of assuming such individuals just need more education and that they need to do less attempting of (mis)educating of others while they go back to learning mode, if indeed they can.
I'm just trying to avoid another "eruss" type of pissing match... I get a sense that Brien may be getting baited for a flame war and I'd like to cut that off before it starts. Yet, I also want you to be welcomed and appreciated for the awesome contributions you make here, so I really hope I'm not offending you by saying this.
As a moderator I sometimes have to walk a tight line of enforcing truth as well as maintaining a positive learning environment, which I concede is challenging when those who need the most learning try to do more teaching than for which they're qualified... Nevertheless, we owe it to everyone to keep the vibe as positive as we can.
I'm not locking the thread this time because this is good stuff and we are all benefiting... But I've got my eye on the pool and the whistle is primed! ;-)
--Keith :mrgreen:
Keith,
although not deliberately baiting - you are correct about my tone - and I have eited my post because of your comments -
BUT - I (personally) think Eric was very controlled and in line with his comments and tone..........
Sincerely,
Rod
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latex_(polymer)
This has polymer @ 25-60% by weight:
Green Glue
This has polymer @ 10-30% by weight:
DAP 25 year caulk
I'm building here not doing acoustic things which I know nothing about. I know me some building.
And these are excepted practice in any structure when the potential for vibration exists.
Do you know that I even advocate using Liquid Nail if nothing else is availble....it's true! I cannot believe that as talented as you guys are you are going to force feed me an opinion that I am supposed to live with...that's just not right;)
The question was and I quote: "...do we need green glue?"
No you do not.
Sirs, I know you guys are educated in your field(s) but I have a difficult time getting past "If there is no green glue...use nothing."
Not malice or mis-information intended,
Brien
Brien, You still don't seem to get it - not even at the most basic of levels........... and whether you intend misinformation or not is irrelevant - you are still spreading it. And it really has nothing to do on my end with green glue - but nore just what you suggest in and of itself. A jack hammer is made of (roughly) 98% metals - a car engine is made of (roughly) 98% metals......... do you then propose that a jack hammer and a car engine are equally exchangable and able to do the same jobs? That fact that they both have polymers in the same rough quanities does not even remotely suggest that they do the same job. you might - "know you some building" - as you say - but you are no where near expert in what you know. I have over 30 years in construction - over a billion dollars in successful construction under my belt - and have pretty much seen it all - and i couldn't find anyone in all those years who would even suggest what you do.............. Believe me when i tell you - gluing 2 sheets of drywall together with ANYTHING - is not the same as using green glue - and IN FACT will not help your TL values (in the lower frequencies) but will actually hurt them.......... SO although you might have used something in the past - perhaps even had someone tell you that it was a good idea to do - and you did it and it seemed ok to you - that doesn't change the facts - The facts are that people are better off putting nothing between sheets than doing what you suggest - period - even if green glue didn't exist - you are wrong sir...... Sincerely, Rodhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latex_(polymer) This has polymer @ 25-60% by weight: Green Glue This has polymer @ 10-30% by weight: DAP 25 year caulk I'm building here not doing acoustic things which I know nothing about. I know me some building. And these are excepted practice in any structure when the potential for vibration exists. Do you know that I even advocate using Liquid Nail if nothing else is availble....it's true! I cannot believe that as talented as you guys are you are going to force feed me an opinion that I am supposed to live with...that's just not right;) The question was and I quote: "...do we need green glue?" No you do not. Sirs, I know you guys are educated in your field(s) but I have a difficult time getting past "If there is no green glue...use nothing." Not malice or mis-information intended,
To keep this fair and balanced you can always use this product.
http://www.asc-soundproof.com/newpages/ ... studio.htm
http://www.asc-soundproof.com/
Bruce Swedien used it in his new studio and was very happy with the result.
cheers
john
John, Thanks for the link - I've emailed them to request copies of the actual test data for their products........ it really helps to have it when trying to do a cost versus performance analysis. Sincerely, Rod cheers john[/quote]To keep this fair and balanced you can always use this product. http://www.asc-soundproof.com/newpages/ ... studio.htm http://www.asc-soundproof.com/ Bruce Swedien used it in his new studio and was very happy with the result.
Thanks, Rod, for your cooperation in adjusting the tone of your earlier post. :-)
On the subject of the product that John posted about (Thanks to you too, John :-)), I have become a firm believer in only considering products that have been independently lab tested and for which the results of those tests are made readily available. Green Glue, Kinetics, Mason Industries, and others whose names escape me right now, definitely play fair on those fronts. I won't bother to mention the snake oil companies who exist to rip people off.
Of course there's the IRC-NRC data too, showing how many easily obtained "conventional" building products can be used effectively, with stats to show what one can expect from them - no "magic" products needed.
Is Green Glue required? It always depends on the details of the individual project and the needs of the owner.
--Keith :mrgreen:
AmenIs Green Glue required? It always depends on the details of the individual project and the needs of the owner.
I withdraw from this thread. The principle used by ASC is discussed already and leaves many questions to be answered. John as you know yourself, being happy with it is no guarantee of a functionality. People are either angry, if things fall short beyond doubt, or are happy with it, because all their personal energy, money and time is invested in it. Being happy is even the mature way to handle this, since one can't continue questioning ones own decisions after being taken, or after the facts, certainly not when there isn't an obvious reason to do so. This is no quality judgement of the ASC product. But people are happy with all kind of products and studio treatments, I'm rather sure you should browse your eyes as well. And I'm not saying this is the case here. For a company with that name (ASC), and the acoustic knowledge I assume they posses, it's at least (very) questionable that one finds a lot of nice descriptions as being engineered, but no useful data whatsoever to check the effect of the product. This is even more important when they write:To keep this fair and balanced you can always use this product. http://www.asc-soundproof.com/newpages/ ... studio.htm http://www.asc-soundproof.com/ Bruce Swedien used it in his new studio and was very happy with the result. cheers john
I quantify this ASC comment without ANY real data at least cheap marketing hype. It also shows that GG scares them by mentioning them so explicit by name, accompanied by a questionable statement. On this page: http://www.asc-soundproof.com/ I see some questionable designs. The fact that they draw it, doesn't prove a thing without accompanying data. If their standard principle does work, I even wonder if it has (additionally) to do with a viscothermal acousto-elestic interaction in very small cavities, even without them being aware of it.WallDamp is ideal for high powered audio environments where quality counts. Unlike other damping systems such as "Green Glue", our product is engineered to give you a known result based on a known quantity of damping material.
- Noise reduction by viscothermal acousto-elastic interaction in double wall panels
by Tom Basten (Ph.D study)
ISBN: 90-365-1597-1
Eric makes some great points about the placebo effect and anecdotal evidence -- two very powerful obfuscating powers in science - or, one could argue, lack thereof.
I'm sorry you're withdrawing, Eric, as there is no question as to the value you bring to this discussion.
--Keith :mrgreen:
Sharward wrote:
Amen again. Whilst not being in anyway qualified to really get involved with this high level of expertise, I feel I must strongly urge all of you to remember (just for a brief moment at least), how much you've all tought us to get this far. Knowledge breeds confidence, and, as we all know, ignorance breeds fear. Kind regards people. Lou. 8) PS: Real sorry if I should have just stayed out of it! :oops:I'm sorry you're withdrawing, Eric, as there is no question as to the value you bring to this discussion.
Nice! :-D
Nice! :-D
Hildy,
When I stated "You can use just about any high quality silicone/polyurethane caulking to achieve the same type of result." there was important information not included that should have been.
The transmission loss of the wall(s) will suffer, based on available numbers, if GG is not applied.
My omission of this pertenient data may have caused you some confusion, this was not my intention nor ever is it my intention to confuse or baffle people with bs, like comparisons of engine parts and hammers might do:)
Over the three decades that I have invested in building residential and commercial structures, having a hammer and using it regularly, I have physically put my hands on and felt the effects of sound pressure on walls and have had to modify or correct an "impotent" wall or room/partition installed by DIYers or those less concerned with isolation and more concerned with getting paid:)
So while I have tried to offer some options, as others have, that still exist to you as one in want of a better wall, I have misguided you.
My bad....
Brien
fair enough Eric - but the "WHO" is happy must be taken into consideration surely. Bruce Swedien is one of the world's top engineers. He works with Quincy Jones and recorded the greatest selling album of all time - Thriller. He has a series of grammy awards and nominations. He has just completed construction of his new studio. From the few pics I've seen it appears it is all built with single stud construction yet it is near a busy train line and he was concerned about the occasional train whistle disturbing his sessions. When he opened up his favourite condensor microphone in the studio he was satisfied because he couldn't hear the train or it's whistle. Something must be working ;) cheers johnJohn as you know yourself, being happy with it is no guarantee of a functionality.
adding my 2¢... some of the mystery may be due to propriety... with tough competition, you need every edge for you and the people you partner with. so with complex sutdio constructs and the a myriad of bits... it is possible that ASC and their partners have some knowledge they use every day to make things behave correctly and we're in the dark a bit because of lack of published specs...[/b][/list]
adding my 2¢... some of the mystery may be due to propriety... with tough competition, you need every edge for you and the people you partner with. so with complex sutdio constructs and the a myriad of bits... it is possible that ASC and their partners have some knowledge they use every day to make things behave correctly and we're in the dark a bit because of lack of published specs...