Lou's Studio - Construction Phase

Hai Lou, Great update, again. 'bout the RC, are ye sure it's RC? It looks like Hat-channel to me. The bonded (or agglomated? looks like it) foam... not sure if it's usefull to use it like you did. I think Eric Desart might clear thinks up. The stuff is ideal for floors tho. I've got a stash of the same stuff laying around :)

Ro wrote:

'bout the RC, are ye sure it's RC? It looks like Hat-channel to me.

I was going to say the same thing! RC only attaches on one side whereas the hat-channel attaches at both sides.

Lou, I have watched in awe your build! I just got through yesterday with mine, and it took 2 years! Anyway, I am with JWL! I think the acoustic insulation you have looks like Ultrabond Ultratouch acoustic Cotton. It is made from old and new Blue Jeans material. It is supposed to be very good stuff. I was going to use it here but the local distributor stopped carrying it by the time I needed it. Good luck with your project, looks absolutely top notch! Tom

Hi Guys – Many thanks as always for the replies and the comps. Firstly this is gonna’ be a quickie since I’m late for an appointment. :shock: JWL – Great to hear from you my friend, I hope you and your good lady are well, and that your project is progressing nicely! :wink: Tmix – Thanks man! Much appreciated, and you were right to go with JWL, my insulation is indeed Ultrabond Utratouch acoustic cotton,(thanks for the link JWL). The company who supplied it use it for silencing aircraft jet engine test chambers! (Or significantly reducing internal noise at least.) It is indeed made from recycled denim, and is definitely not foam! (Though I agree Ro, that’s just what it looks like from the pics!) :wink: Ro / DH – Nice one guys and sorry for the inaccuracy, by brain is so full of what I’ve read and learned from here and Rod’s book etc, that it was more of an ‘auto-typo’ thing! :oops: :oops: I am of course using hat channel (not resilient channel) attached with 50mm x 8 guage ‘Ultimate’ wood screws either side at every joist location. And, yes, I have of course done my calcs to work out the additional ‘dead load’ my bedroom 4 ceiling will support, (based on Steve’s sticky), 5.5lbs per square foot, plus channel and insulation. Bear in mind it’s all being supported by those three 12” steels! :wink: Take care guys, gotta’ go, and many thanks again, Regards, Lou. 8)

Lou wrote:

I am of course using hat channel (not resilient channel) attached with 50mm x 8 guage ‘Ultimate’ wood screws either side at every joist location. And, yes, I have of course done my calcs to work out the additional ‘dead load’ my bedroom 4 ceiling will support, (based on Steve’s sticky), 5.5lbs per square foot, plus channel and insulation. Bear in mind it’s all being supported by those three 12” steels! :wink:

Lou, too bad we didn't speak prior to the hat channel - RC-2 looks almost identical - has 2 legs to fasten and will carry the same load as the hat section - BUT - you get about a 6dB bang in added isolation by using it instead of the hat. Rod

BUGGER IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: Regards, and thanks kind Sir. Lou. 8)

Yep, I'd say the whole studio is down the toilet now Lou! ;) Maybe you can find work at the local fish and chips shop? :lol:

doublehelix wrote:

Yep, I'd say the whole studio is down the toilet now Lou! ;) Maybe you can find work at the local fish and chips shop? :lol:

Neh, he just BUILD his own fish shop :p @ Lou: Why did you add the HC in the 1st place? I'm sure you must have known the HC vs RC. It's in Rod's book and all over this forum. :shock:

Hang on a minute guys - you're losing me a bit here! :oops: Are we saying that I've screwed up? This is what's up there: http://www.trademate.co.uk/products/pro ... Keypart2=4 Basically as you can see, a long steel section 50mm deep, attachable on both sides :? :? :? Regards, Lou. 8)

Lou, it's not per definition a bad thing you installed HC to hang yer boards on. It's just that many times HC is confused with RC. HC ain't resilient as Rod just mentioned. So there's no extra (transmission loss) bonus by using HC, but it's not really a BAD thing if you knew it wasn't resilient in the first place. Maybe you just used it because it's easier to screw into (vs wood) or something. What was your argument to use channel anyway? RC might be a bit more expensive than hat, but it'll boost yer trans.loss. (as Rod mentioned). So why not use RC instead of HC. Or in your case, why did you NOT use RC instead of HC?

Just to clarify my own understanding... Is there no acoustic or sound-proofing benefit to hat channel, or just "LESS" benefit than RC? Is the hat channel just going to help Lou attach his drywall (gives me shivers just thinking about it!) more easily?

Right - now I'm starting to panic. :shock: :shock: :shock: Ro - I thought what I had chosen was resilient! :oops: I've done several google searches (UK sites -don't have time to wait for overseas shipping) and I can't see a picture anywhere that shows me the difference in RC2 and Hat! Does RC 2 have holes along the entire length of the flanges for example? I am ( you'll all be glad to know) ensuring that none of my layers are attached to the joists by making sure all fixings are between the joists! :wink: Would a layer of neoprene (or similar) prior to the transverse MDF layer rectify the situation? Many thanks guys, Regards, Lou. 8) (I'm working on the studio as we speak :shock: :shock: )

Bo***cks! Found it - Page 58 last paragraph! :cry: :cry: :cry: Urgent advice now needed to get my 6db back please Gentlemen. Many massive thank yous in advance. Regards, Lou. 8)

Hello there Lou! I must echo all the previous sentiments marveling at your amazing project! It has been fun and inspiring to watch it come together. I’ve been checking out your thread too DH! If you guys have a chance and care to take a look, here’s a discussion on recording.org from a guy who ran into the same problem regarding the hat channel. It’s an older post so a couple of the links are dead. The thread starts out kinda long but towards the middle is where the pros offer the usual suggestion of ripping it all out. Near the end of the post the possibility of litigation, and some rather humorous punishments against the distributor and contractor are brought up. I'm no expert but I've browsed these sites enough to know that unfortunately pulling it all down might still be the prescription. Although, as mentioned in that post, maybe some Green Glue or similar product, and another layer or two of drywall might be a good compromise? That should get back your 6dB and possibly even more. Hope you get it sorted out! Chris

Right guys – Teaching in 27 minutes and I currently look like ‘Catweezel’s Grandad’ :twisted: so need to get cleaned up. Chris – Thank you for the comps mate, and I will of course read the link later. For now – here’s what I plan: 1st and foremost, hat channel? Clearly a total F**K UP on my part ie, no contractors to sue, no money coming back, no time to start again, Studio 4 is booked from mid Jan. :shock: :shock: :shock: My isolation concerns are noise leaking in from above. Bedroom 4 (above the new control room) is occupied by Sarah’s 11 year old daughter, who whilst is absolutely no trouble at all, quite naturally has the occasional friend round and loves music in her room etc, and who will want to be able to sleep when I need to work late. :shock: ISO booth is mostly under the new pitched roof/flat roof with fresh air above. :wink: Live room is under store area/loft hatch and part of bedroom 4. :shock: The ultratouch that’s gone in (and the rest of it that’s currently drying in a warehouse) is layered to 8” thick and, although was never used on the job for which it was purchased, would have cost a total of £2,500.00 So I’m guessing some very fortunate over-spec in this area. :D :D We are talking about my ‘outer-leaf’ - by that, I of course mean that there will be 3 more new ceilings (rooms within a room) built with the same level of insulation, same no of layers, (plus Green Glue) and room treatments - but no hat channel in sight! After this first layer of ceiling plasterboard is up, Andy arrives to render all the walls with 20mm concrete render. I will then apply the first wall layer beef-up, then, an MDF layer on the ceiling followed by second wall layer, then final ceiling plasterboard layer, and lastly (for the ‘Outer-Leaf’ Only) the final wall layer. 3 layers for Outer-Leaf all round. :roll: All perimeter seals will be treated with backer-rod and acoustic caulk, all joints will be sealed with acoustic caulk. Now that you all have a more detailed explanation of what I’m proposing, please kindly advise if there’s anything else I need (or can) do, for my Outer-Leaf anyway. :cry: Warm regards, Lou. 8)

hello mate. you said a few post s back that the plater board was your beef up of your outer leaf yes? if this is the case wouldnt that make the original celing / floor above the first leaf, then the joist with the plaster board the seond leaf. and then are you going to do another celing creating 3 leafs? hope ive got this all wrong buddy.

Joey wrote:

hope ive got this all wrong buddy

Bloody hell - so do I Dude. :cry: :cry: Lou. 8)

sorry for spelling keys are playing up.

if it is the case take down the plaster board ut it to fit between the joist, beefing up the first leaf. then build your second celing do the whole hat channel thing with the plaster board job done .

It was suggested to me to employ the RC approach over the entire ceiling area rather than trying to 'cut in' between the joists, (water pipes, cables, wierd timber angels etc) my stupid fault for getting the wrong gear. :oops: :oops: I'm going down the pub for a load of beer - with Rod's book in hand again of course. :? :? By the time I return tonight, I'll have designed a plausible way out of this cock-up, or someone else, thankfully, doubtless will. :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: Don't be shy Gentlemen - Great design always starts with someone coming up with a bad idea. Kind regards as always Dudes, Lou. 8)

Lou - read this article. cheers john

@ Lou: Using HC is not bad perse. Using HC thinking it's resilient is still not bad, it just won't function as you think it will. Hence not performing on transmission loss. BUT if ya really need all transloss you can get and have to use RC for that; removing the whole is the only option. Then you've got the option to: 1. Get rid of the HC and get yeself some real RC. Depending on load, RC1 or RC2. Read rod's book on that. 2. Buy them rclips (dunno the exact name) to hang your HC on. Might even be a bit better than RC. Too bad you thought ye were using RC.

Thanks for the comps, tips and suggestions chaps - much appreciated. :D I've thought about this non stop for the last day or so, and following my pub excursion, a good read from John (many thanks mate), with yet more info I reasearched this morning, I have come up with what I consider to be a plausible cost / time (and isolation) solution! :D :D :D Full details posted tonight!! :wink: Meanwhile my friends, gotta' go - I've got a studio to build. :shock: Stay tuned, regards, Lou. 8)

Hi guys – well what a couple of days, just about every emotion possible flying around my head – excitement, frustration, dismay, confusion, gratitude, self-anger, you name it chaps, ‘been there, done that’. :evil: :evil: So then – last night I did, indeed, go down the pub for a few bevvy’s, with Rod’s book in hand. I sat in a quiet corner and read a bit, and then, some more and,…….you get the idea. Firstly I need to know that I now have a much better understanding of what’s going on in my build plans, so if any of you want to chime in after reading this, then as always, please feel free. :wink: As I see it at the moment, whilst being correctly advised (by someone very important) to employ resilient (bloody well) channel over the entire outer ceiling, driod-features here, ignorantly purchased the wrong product. Whilst I hope you’d all agree that the ceiling I’ve installed is impressive for its structural integrity and level-ness etc, I’m sure you’d also all agree that I’ve built a rigid structure, and directly coupled it to the existing floor joists of bedroom 4 via the stuff that I cannot speak of, thus making the isolation properties of my ceiling marginally better than timber battens. DUH! :roll: Given that it’s the three month anniversary of the project start tomorrow, I was, as you can imagine, totally hacked off and frustrated at such a mess-up on my part. Being the kind of bloke that rarely accepts ‘grey’ and who prefers ‘black or white’ every time, I decided to do a serious reality check. Up until 12.30 this morning, the whole lot was coming down and being re-done properly! :shock: I woke at 6.00am and got straight on the computer and found this product in Warrington (north-west UK) http://www.cmsacoustics.co.uk/c-acoustics/isomax.htm Now please feel free to check out the site, UK builders, since they seem to know their stuff. Once they opened, I called them for prices. 216 clips at £4.53 each – 38 lengths of their channel to fit - £273.60, all plus V.A.T. – Grand total: £1,471.19. Adding to this the cost of what would be wasted materials in the rip-out, plus the extra time to do it all, and, the wait for delivery etc, made the whole concept seem like a bit of a non-starter to say the least. There had to be a more cost/time affective alternative. Back to the reality check for a moment – “Constructing an isolated system is only as good as the weakest link in the assembly-with the greatest challenges being spaces directly above or below you” Dude – you’re so right on that one, I’ve heard it for myself. :wink: :wink: Bedroom 4 is occupied by an eleven year old who is at school all day, and who does spend a lot of time watching TV, but even more time reading. The amount of ambient air-born noise from above is therefore difficult to calculate but for the fact that, when she’s not in her room, it’s zero. :D Ambient noise in the loft hatch/bass-trap hanger area? – Zero. :D Ambient noise over new flat roof and pitched roof? Other than rainfall shielded by trees, – Zero. :) So here then is the proposal, I’m sorry if Rod – John – Eric etc disagree, but it seems to make sense (to me at least – unless I’ve missed something else!). :oops: Live with what I’ve got for the minute, keep going blah blah etc, and at the end of the job (as and when necessary), go up to bedroom 4, clear it out, take up the carpet to reveal the ¾” tongue and groove chipboard flooring. Then, carefully fix 10mm solid (circular section) neoprene extrusion all around the perimeter. Lay neoprene extrusion in a criss-cross mesh pattern at 300mm centers over the entire floor. Lay a new ¾” tongue and groove chipboard floor to the top of this ‘neoprene mesh’ with a ¼” gap around the entire perimeter, fill that gap with neoprene extrusion, and lastly seal all gaps and joints with acoustic caulk. Then lay a new carpet to the new chipboard without attaching it to the original floor, thus de-coupling bedroom 4 floor from studio 4 ceiling. A sort of 'arse-backwards resilient channel!' Total cost £32.60 (I’ve already got 200m of neoprene as you know), plus whatever carpet her ladyship would like in her bedroom. It will give a gentle softness to her floor without a ‘springy’ bounce…………………trust me I’ve already tried it, photo to prove if required. :D :D Thanks for putting up with the long winded read, but I’ve been real down, yet am also pleased that I might be able to salvage the cock-up. From now on - don’t start any new part of the job without re-reading, re-asking, and re-researching first! :roll: :roll: :roll: Kind regards Gentlemen as always, Lou. 8)

Obviously I am not qualified to tell you if your plan is going to work, but I am happy that you have a good plan to move forward with, and that you don't have to rip out any of the work that you have already done. Best of luck Lou, we are all pulling for ya!