How to deal with breaker box and conduit

Hello all, I'm converting an attached 1 car garage into a drum studio. I have neighbors on one side only about 17 feet away. Usable floor dimensions: 10' 5" x 19' 11" Ceiling height: 9' 8" I'm doing the "full Sharward". I need maximum sound isolation! Budget: $15,000 Garage walls are finished on all sides and ceiling with 5/8" drywall. No insulation. Of course, this is all coming off so I can "beef up" the outer layers. I'm also ripping up the concrete slab and pouring a new one a la Sharward! HVAC will be simple: A/C unit in garage window, with some type of simple supply and return. I will be following Sharward's example very closely. The only questions I have right now are regarding beefing up: How do I deal with the breaker box and conduit? Also, note the location of the wall on the cinder block. It's that way around the entire garage. Hence the wacky floor dimensions. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Hark! Did I hear my name? Welcome to the forum, studio_drums! 8) As flattered as I am with the imitation, are you sure you need to do a new slab? I had some specific reasons for deciding to go with a new slab, and I'm glad that I did (so far) -- but I feel like I owe it to you to ask you to justify it. Having the service panel in the location of your room does present a challenge... :roll: See Dan Fitzpatrick's thread. He had a similar obstacle in his way, and he dealt with it (painfully). See what he did and how, and then consider asking him (on his thread) whether he would choose to do it differently given the chance. Note that the thick conduit you have in the garage probably has to remain accessible, at least at the point of the LB connector (the elbow thing where the conduit enters the wall below the service panel). That line might have to be rerouted. I'm concerned about your plan to use/keep a window air conditioner as a cooling source. The cost of doing so in terms of soundproofing/isolation is substantial, such that it may invalidate well over half of what you intend to do. Perhaps you can post a drawing of the entire floorplan of the garage. You may have some options for optimizing your soundproofing effort-to-outcome ratio that are not immediately obvious. Make sure to include all of the utilities and other sorts of things to which you need to maintain access. Also, you haven't said anything about your (dreaded ;-)) garage door, whether it needs to remain operable, how much clear space you may need to maintain for a vehicle (sometimes required by the building/planning department), etc. I also highly recommend Rod's book: Home Recording Studio: Build It like the Pros. I'm looking forward to seeing your project come together. 8) --Keith :mrgreen:

There he is! BTW- I have Rod's book. More info: Garage floor: The concrete slab slopes sideways, a total of 3 inches, plus it dips in the middle. It's in really bad shape. I don't see any other alternative besides pouring concrete over the existing slab, which I would consider if it was feasible. But somehow I don't think that's a good idea. Is it? Garage door: It's there. It's a very tight knit community and I don't want to make waves, so the door stays. But only for aesthetics. It won't be functional. I've aleady taken down the opener. I'll have to seal it against the opening and secure it tightly. Then build a wall in front of it between the door and the room. I know this is triple leaf, but this will be adequate, as there is about 80 feet of air space between the door and the neighbor's property line across the street. Electrical: I'm prepared ($$$) to have the breaker box and/or conduit "relocated" to get it out of the way and make it more accessible. Probably just inside the garage (house)door. I also might need the electrical to be updated as necessary to handle the load from the studio. I'm expecting this to be the most expensive part of the build. HVAC: I got the idea to utilize the window A/C unit based on Rod's book- using the space between walls as a plenum? I saw a drawing by John on this site on how to isolate the A/C unit- I just have to find it. I'm trying to simplify somewhere- if I can get away with it, I'll do it, but not at the expense of isolation. Floor Plan: It's just a basic 1 car garage: An 11x 20 rectangle with a garage door on one side and a "house entry door" on the other. And an outside window on one of the long sides... (Actual floor space is smaller- see pics above) I'm just going to have one big room- so I can get a better recorded drum sound.

Wow... OK... Well, you're surely in for a wild ride then! :twisted: You mentioned "tight knit community... Do you have CC&Rs? Have you checked with your local building/planning department to see if you can legally sacrifice your one car garage and convert it to habitable space? I just want to make sure you don't run into any insurmountable brick walls before you get too far along... :roll: ...Not having these ducks lined up can be devastating. Regarding the door... One option I recently pointed out to someone... Granted, you'll burn some usable floor space... But imagine your garage door fully open (without an automatic door opener). Now picture a wall across the garage about four feet into the garage from there. That wall goes straight up towards the ceiling, about four feet tall. Then the rest of the way up, the wall is slanted, like an attic wall / vaulted ceiling, at 45 degrees, towards the back of the garage, where it connects to the ceiling a little bit past where the overhead door tracks end. This would allow for a storage area to exist between the garage door and the studio, good for bicycles, lawnmowers, garbage containers, a motorcycle, etc. And the studio wall would not interfere with the garage door track or opener and both would be accessible (albeit awkwardly) for servicing. The studio console would fit in the "alcove" area inside the room - the wall would be angled over the console. :) Yes, the garage door would technically be a third leaf... But the third leaf effect, if any, would be eliminated if the door were left open when noise levels were high. If you're willing to lose a little square footage to useful storage, preserve the integrity of the door, and live with a console in an alcove (which might offer some acoustic advantages :roll:), this would be one way to do it. Also, if you're lucky and the back of that electrical service panel is within that first few feet in that would-be storage area, you wouldn't even have to deal with that! :twisted: I just threw together this very crude illustration to show what I mean... --Keith :mrgreen:

Thanks for the drawing Sharward. That's a great idea for the garage door. You present a good argument with regards to the service panel. However, it would really cut down on my usable space. I don't think it will be worth the sacrifice. I spoke to the County last week. I said I was interested in converting my garage into a "workshop". I asked them if I needed a permit to replace the existing drywall with something thicker for sound isolation purposes (as in beef-up). He said "for replacing drywall, no...for new walls, yes". I also presented the possibility of building a room. I told him about the A/C unit in the window...and I asked about meeting code with ventilation concerns. He said I "could just show in a drawing how the room would be ventilated". I will most certainly get a second opinion on the permit issues and do more research into building code. I believe the county uses IBC 2003 as well. What are CC&R's?

First of all, you're not building a "workshop." Workshops are non-habitable spaces. My city's senior building inspector and plan checker told me, when I was early in my design phase: "Is it going to have air conditioning? Yes? Then it's habitable." That might have been an oversimplification, but he was trying to impress upon me that the room I wanted to build had a higher standard to meet in terms of ventilation and such. Another thing: habitable space additions/conversions increase the square footage of your home. This is, overall, a good thing. In my case I'm increasing the habitable square footage by about 12%. Granted, I'm losing about 30% of my garage, but the garage footage is valued lower. This increases the value of the home a little. I may have to pay higher property taxes though... which is fair when you think about it: Whether you bought it or built it, you're taxed on its overall value. CC&Rs stands for Covenants, Conditions, and Restrictions. They are the "laws" written by the developer and signed by all homeowners in a community governed by a homeowners' association (HOA) - even subsequent owners must sign them. If you have an HOA, with or without dues, you definitely have CC&Rs. If no HOA, then you probably don't. Most CC&Rs are pretty strict on garage conversions, especially full ones like you are proposing. Willfully violating them can subject you to thousands of dollars in civil penalties and liens. When in doubt, check it out. :-) I'm glad you're conversing with your county building department. I've found mine to be especially helpful. Just be sure to be explicit with your questions and don't try to "soften" your description of what you plan to do: the distinction between habitable and non-habitable has a substantial impact on what is allowed and required, and you don't want to paint yourself into any corners. :-) On losing too much space to my storage idea: Is your garage empty right now? That stuff's gonna have to go somewhere, you know! ;-) --Keith :mrgreen:

I'm going to meet with the county today and tell them exactly what I intend to do with the garage so they can direct me accordingly. I guess if there was an HOA I would have heard something by now but I haven't...I'll be sure to ask them about that as well. The garage is empty, I'm getting a small shed for the lawn mower and bikes, etc.

My wife and I are on our second home. In both cases (previous house and this one), we've been governed by CC&Rs, and our homeowners' associations were established by the builder. The HOA board consisted initially of representitives of the builder. Once the homes were all built, the HOAs were transferred to the homeowners, so the board was changed to members of the community. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your perspective I guess), such HOAs often die on the vine because there are no homeowners' association dues to keep them viable. The community's interest in the HOA tends to wane, if ever there was any, because there aren't any financial decisions to be made. It becomes, in effect, an enforcement activity that many interpret to be unpopular. I guess the point I'm making is, if you aren't sure whether or not you have CC&Rs, be absolutely sure that you don't. The county recorders' office might be able to tell you, as I believe CC&Rs are recorded with the deed and are attached to the property forever. I hope this doesn't turn into a pro-vs.-con argument as to the merit of HOAs and CC&Rs... I just wanted to make sure you don't run into a problem later. :) I'm looking forward to finding out what you learn from your county in terms of ventilation requirements. I'm predicting you'll need 0.35 to 0.5 ACH (air changes per hour) of fresh air ventilation or an operable window of a certain size... And since isolation is a top priority for you, an operable window is pretty much out of the question. --Keith :mrgreen:

No questions answered today- I didn't have all the paperwork ready, but he said the rough sketches I had of the proposed room would work fine. He said when I come back tomorrow we would go over the drawings and any changes that would need to be made. He said it was about a $100 permit. So, in preparation for tomorrow, do you have any suggestions? Lately I've been thinking of keeping the service panel right where it is, and just leaving enough space to access it (2 ft.) I need room on that side anyway for the A/C unit and any ductwork/ventilation system I attach to the outside. Might as well create a larger air gap...

I think there are codes that stipulate how much clearance there must be in front of an electrical service panel. Make sure your drawings include your panel.

Here's a floor plan I put together using Paint- LOL

I realize you're kind of going for the "chiller room" concept, where the leftover garage space acts as the chiller room, with the window air conditioner being the source of the cooling and the fan on the back wall of the studio supplying the room with cool air. I'm not sure this is going to fly with the county building department though... :roll: Plus, that window A/C unit is going to protrude into the area between the walls, which is your pathway to the service panel. I'm 99% sure that's not going to fly. That service panel faces the garage, so I cannot imagine a plan checker would allow for the scenario of a breaker tripping, and someone having to shimmy their way in the cramped area between those walls to get to the breaker panel. Getting back to my sketch... You're burning a lot of floor space in the back... What if you made the rear wall of your studio a few inches away from the back wall of the garage? The threshold of the door leading to your studio could be at the same height as the door leading to the house, and then you'd have to have a 3 foot by 3 foot (or so) pad/platform at the studio entrance, with one or two steps down into the rest of the room. You'd basically gain the space at the rear and lose it at the front. If you do that, then I think your service panel woes may go away. You may need to bite the bullet (as I did) and do the combo mini-split A/C plus heat recovery ventilator (HRV) / energy recovery ventilator (ERV) concept. That'll add $2,000 to $3,000 to your build I'm afraid... :roll: --Keith :mrgreen:

Hmmm...now you got me thinking... I'm slowly coming around to your point of view here... Save money on relocating the service panel and use that for the mini-split instead ;) I'm going to redo the floor plan and post again later...

Now you're cookin' with gas. 8) Speaking of gas... I don't see a water heater in there... Is it someplace other than the garage? (Hopefully?) --Keith :mrgreen:

No water heater in garage... A couple things: Wouldn't code require access to the service panel from INSIDE the house, as opposed to having to go outside and open the garage door to get to it? I guess technically it will be located on the interior of the house, and maybe that's all that matters... How would one frame out the door and landing required to bring the studio entrance level with the house entry door? I can't picture it in my head...

Good question about the service panel access. My service panel is accessible from the outside. I think that'll be a question for your county building department. If it needs to be accessible from the outside, then a weatherproof external panel may need to replace the one that is there, which would probably be less expensive than the outright move you had contemplated before. If you're truly committed to replacing the concrete slab (an ambitious project indeed!), then: jackhammer all the existing floor, prep the soil, build the forms, and provision a taller/thicker "porch" type pad where the existing door is that extends about 4 to 5 feet from the threshold of that door. Your framing would go around the perimeter of the new slab, then go up along the side and over the top of the "porch." Your "porch" would ultimately extend into the room you're building. Don't worry about it right now -- just do your floorplan sketch, and I'll show you where the porch and its steps would drop down into the room. :) Hey, take some close-up pictures of that area by your door leading into the house. I'm trying to figure out whether or not your garage slab is separate from the foundation... Is there an expansion joint running the perimeter of the garage? If not, you may have a complication in that breaking up the floor might compromise the foundation's integrity. --Keith :mrgreen:

Just got back from the county plan examiner's office. All building plans were approved with no changes. I have my permit! I used the floor plan I posted on the previous page, (plus a side view and wall detail). I chose to stick to that plan after realizing I needed storage space accessible from inside the house! Also, it could technically be a small waiting area for students... 8) Topics: Ventilation- No concerns. I explained the "chiller room" concept, and asked if there were any special requirements for air exchange. He said no-unless I was running ductwork out to the garage. Service Panel- No concerns. "As long as you can get to it". He said there were fewer concerns with this build since this was not a bedroom, and since there was no living space above the garage. Also, since none of the walls were structural- as in holding up other walls. The only things he said I needed was a smoke detector and to make sure I used PT lumber for the sole plates. I believe the concrete slab is not connected to the foundation. It's cinder block all the way around, like the pics, with a slab in the middle...

I don't have a copy of the National Electric Code (NEC) book (I know Rod does, as does guitardad72), but I am pretty certain the requirements for electrical service panel access and clearance are more strict than "as long as you can get to it." For instance, I spotted this plan checklist document on the County of Salt Lake site that indicates "not in bathroom or firewall, 30 inch clearance side to side, 36 inches in front, and 6.5 feet in height." That may be just Salt Lake County's extra requirements above and beyond what their model codes call for, or (as I suspect) a paraphrased summary of what the model codes do call for. You're to be commended for following the rules and going through the process -- and by all means, congratulations on your securing a building permit with so little hassle! 8) However, do understand that the plan check process is intended to catch many things, but in the event that a code violation exists on the drawing that is not caught by the plan checker, the oversight does not allow the violation to occur. The same is true if something is missed by an inspector signing off on work done. It's frustrating because the system is in place, in theory, to prevent errors and violations, but many things can and do slip through the cracks... Anyway, I would highly recommend consulting with someone familiar with the model codes in place for your county and, ideally, receiving a copy of the specific language on the subject (assuming there is some, and I predict that there is). I'm also rather perplexed by this:

studio_drums wrote:

I explained the "chiller room" concept, and asked if there were any special requirements for air exchange. He said no-unless I was running ductwork out to the garage.

Why would it not be OK to have ductwork in the garage, but it would be OK to run the air through the garage? :roll: I suspect the counterperson might not have truly understood the concept. I suppose it might be that because you're doing a full garage conversion, the area between the room and the rest of the house will no longer be considered garage space. Anyway, congratulations again on getting the permit -- just double-check some of these details to make sure you don't end up building something that won't pass inspection. I've had to redo some of my work myself in light of things I've learned along the way here. (Tip: Don't utilize Home Depot personnel for building code compliance questions! :lol:) Hey, this idea just came to me... How about instead of having so much space between the room and the house, you squeeze that wall closer, but open up the area between the room and the wall with the service panel? You could put the studio room entrance door along that wall too. You might consider doing two leaves along that corridor, so that the exterior wall would technically be a third leaf, but you'd have about 36" of clearance... And you wouldn't have to worry about plugging up that window. --Keith :mrgreen:

I'm changing my mind again... I think it's ridiculous now to lose all that space just to get to the service panel. So, I'm definitely going to have it moved to just inside the garage house entry door. Whatever the cost is to move it will be worth utilizing that space. I'm now going to take a closer look through your thread regarding your HVAC plan, mini-split, etc. and revise my floor plan. I need ideas. Don't worry- I will submit all plans for approval prior to framing. I also want to familiarize myself with the code a little more as a precaution- I'm sure the inspector will be less forgiving than the plan examiner. I don't want any surprises. At least I have some time to think this over- the concrete slab and beefing-up will take some time. I'll probably get the electrical box moved before anything, though. I'm still open to suggestions :) I just realized how close the door is to one of the outer walls(see picture). It's going to be difficult trying to isolate another wall...any ideas?

studio_drums wrote:

I'm changing my mind again...

That's OK! Now's the time to experiment with ideas -- before you drive your first nail! :-)

studio_drums wrote:

I think it's ridiculous now to lose all that space just to get to the service panel. So, I'm definitely going to have it moved to just inside the garage house entry door. Whatever the cost is to move it will be worth utilizing that space.

I understand... There are times that I just shudder at the thought of how small my room will be when I'm done... :roll:

studio_drums wrote:

I'm now going to take a closer look through your thread regarding your HVAC plan, mini-split, etc. and revise my floor plan. I need ideas.

Do a search for "HRV" here and you'll find lots of info.

studio_drums wrote:

Don't worry- I will submit all plans for approval prior to framing. I also want to familiarize myself with the code a little more as a precaution- I'm sure the inspector will be less forgiving than the plan examiner. I don't want any surprises.

That's the ticket. :-) Not long ago I had gotten some wiring advice from a Home Depot employee. I followed it and posted photos of my work. Rod pointed out that it wasn't to code. :x I brought the pictures into my city's building department, and the person at the counter said it was fine... But when I pressed him for more assurance in contrast with what Rod told me, he fetched one of the inspectors, who specializes in electrical, and he looked at the pictures and immediately shook his head. This isn't so much a slam against our building department (admittedly, what I had done was a common "shortcut" people often try to do and, apparently often get away with), as it is a reality check: sometimes you have to push to be certain something's OK.

studio_drums wrote:

I just realized how close the door is to one of the outer walls(see picture). It's going to be difficult trying to isolate another wall...any ideas?

Sorry I don't follow... :? --Keith :mrgreen:

new floor plan: new HVAC to be determined Keith, I meant it doesn't look like I'll be able to bring the studio all the way to the existing door since it is right up against the wall. You can kinda see it on one of the pictures on the 1st page. Hence the space between...