sound proof on cement?

sdaf

Please provide a URL to the specifications of these so-called "soundproofing tiles" (and, yes, those are "finger quotes.") :roll:

Uh-huh. OK. Well, do a search for "foam by mail" here, and you'll see for yourself the reputation those scam-artists have around here. Please study the sticky threads. --Keith :mrgreen:

sdfa

First of all, strike the words "soundproof foam" from your vernacular. There is no such thing. Foam By Mail is a joke. They're a rip-off. You're talking about acoustic treatments. I'm moving this thread to the Acoustics forum. Please study the many threads here to learn all you can. You'll get more assistance from members if you try helping yourself first. --Keith :mrgreen:

asdfsdfa

I'm seeing contradictions in your goals.

Yesterday, Jake.Marsh wrote:

Don't really care about keeping sound in, as long as recordings sound good . . .

Today, Jake.Marsh wrote:

My goal is to have a good sound while recording, and attempt to keep the sound in the room, but my neighbors aren't too fussy.

Again, there's no such thing as "soundproofing foam." You need to be much more detailed in your goals (including, but not limited to, how loud you are!) if you hope to have any meaningful assistance here. --Keith :mrgreen:

asdf

Jake, I'm really not trying to be difficult... But you're doing the equivalent of trying to solve an algebraic equation with too many variables that are not defined. You're asking if something is "a good idea" but that depends on what you want to accomplish. On one hand, you indicate that you "don't really care about keeping sound in" (i.e., you aren't interested in soundproofing). Then, you write that you would like to "attempt to keep the sound in the room" (i.e., you are at least somewhat interested in soundproofing). :? :? :? In my opinion, it would be irresponsible for anyone to answer your question without knowing what you're really asking. I see a picture of an acoustic drum set, which tells me you're going to have a lot of noise... do you or do you NOT care about stopping sound from escaping the room? The answer to this question has a major affect on the advice you will be given. --Keith :mrgreen:

sdaf

OK, we're getting somewhere... But, I'm afraid, not far enough. You need to understand "completely soundproof" doesn't really exist. Even if you spent $20,000, you would have some leakage. You need to also understand that acoustic treatments will not "soundproof" a space. They may make the space sound better but often that results in the volume of the amps being turned up, which results in higher noise levels and (yup!) more noise escaping the room. You have it in your mind that "foam" is your solution. I'm telling you, it's not, in spite of the lies perpetuated on Foam By Mail and other garbage Web sites. How much money are you willing to spend for soundproofing, and what level of sound reduction are you expecting for your investment? Also, you have yet to update your profile with a location, so I'm convinced you're not really studying the sticky threads as I advised in my first reply... :roll: --Keith :mrgreen:

sdafsadf

Well, this is the correct place (the Acoustics forum) for answers to the "what treatments should I use?" question. However, I need to be honest with you in telling you that soundproofing a studio after it has been tuned for acoustics is pretty impossible... :roll: ...Yes, you can put seals on the doors, which may help a very small amount, but since the rest of the construction has insufficient mass and likely many holes, you're not going to make much of an improvement without a lot of investment. Bottom line: Soundproofing is not something one can "bolt on" after the fact. It has to be "built in." I'll leave your "what treatments should I use?" question to the regulars here in the Acoustics forum. I know frighteningly little about that subject myself... ;-) --Keith :mrgreen:

sdfsa

Jake: Buy Rod's book on Recording Studio design. That will give you tons of info and a better understanding about how to isolate sound and how to build an acoustically better recording space. If you go into the project with the word 'cheap' you will probably end up wasting most or all of your money by having to do things over and over and still not have the results you want. Take your time --- Read some books, visit some of your local studios and pick their brains about how they put theirs together. How did their studio sound when completed... Are they pleased with the recordings they are making? Listen to some in the studio and take a cassette or CD out to your car for comparison. It would be nice to know the physical make up of your space (i.e. what are all the walls, floor and ceiling made of? How big is your space? Is it damp or dry? From your posting about recording Guitar, Drums and vocals in the same space --- At a minimum I would suggest you build some Gobos --- portable frames built with 2x4s, Owens Corning 703 Insulation and cloth covering on one side and masonite or plywood on the other. These would give your some isolation between the instruments/amps, vocals. You can also purchase moving blankets that are about 5' x 6' and weigh about 8-9 lbs. each. These can be hung about 6-12" in from your problem wall, Make sure they overlap. This will act like a set of curtains in a living space and help 'deaden' the room if it is too 'live' or echo-y. You can find these blankets at better moving companies or theatrical supply houses for about $30-40 each. I use them on film/video shoots and they have worked well. They will not help much with sound of an acoustic drum set or a Marshall Stack on 11 escaping from your space though. As for your neighbors... make sure you check with the local officials about noise ordinances... Your neighbors today might become your adversary when you are recording too early or too late... or too loud! For comparison, I am building s studio in an old mill building. I am located in the basement of the building. I found a space that is only one story tall (14'6") The existing walls are brick with the exception of 3 areas (that turned into 4) of steel stud 2x4s and 1/2" sheetrock with no insulation... Guess where the sound goes... Cut to the chase... I've had to spend about $20,000 to demo the drywalled areas and 3 large window sashes (12' high) and then fill each space with solid concrete blocks. Now that that is complete... and I am almost broke... my studio space will be 6 distinct and disconnected (acoustically) houses. The floor, ceiling and walls of one 'house' don't touch the adjoining 'houses'... There is anywhere from 3-5" of air space between walls. The walls are insulated with rockwool and then covered with 2 layers of 5/8" sheetrock on each side of a 'double wall' (the inside of one house the the inside of the adjoining house). Each layer of drywall is taped and mudded. The corners are filled with backer rod and then sealed with acoustic sealant. Tedious but necessary to have a tight room. You get the idea --- You get what you pay for. You also need to do all the research you can before undertaking even the most modest of studio build projects to finish with a decent space. It will take twice as long and cost at least double what you initially project it to cost. Go slow...ly and may the Schwartz be with you!

Thanks for your participation on this thread, Jon! :) I was running out of ways to express the cautions that you very articulately expressed. Jake, check out Jon's project thread. I realize the scope of what he's doing and what you're doing are nowhere near the same, but you can learn so much from these projects and the mistakes we make along the way. I also wrote this in another thread last month... I'm repeating it here because I believe there is relevance. I hope you'll take it to heart.

Success is defined by project owners on a project-to-project basis. If one has certain must-have goals and is able to achieve them, then by definition that is a success. Where it gets fuzzy is that people often aren't very explicit about their goals. When that occurs, we all start making assumptions, based largely on what our own goals would be. When we measure the imaginary goals against the stated limitations (usually budget), we make conclusions about the achievability of the unarticulated goals, using our fictitious goals as a substitute. This serves as a reminder to everyone to clearly state their goals when asking their questions, as well as a reminder to everyone answering the questions not to make assumptions about the goals. 8) The one thing that I (and I suspect Rod, and others) will always presume to be goals in a project is safety, structural integrity, and code compliance. Oh, alright, that's three things... But they're like peas in a pod when you think about it. So, if someone has a limited budget and certain stated goals, we'll assume it's going to be done safely, sturdily, and legitimately, which will increase costs over doing it unsafely, flimsily, and/or illegally, which may condemn it to the "it can't be done" category. Another thing... Sometimes we have goals in mind when we start a project (any project, not just studios), and then in while executing the project, we make compromises that compromise the outcome. Often the compromises are made with full knowledge, or at least high suspicion, that achieving the goals will or may be impacted, and then we usually adjust the goals accordingly. I also sometimes think there's a pride factor that comes into play when someone finishes a project and it doesn't achieve the goals as expected. Adjusting the expectation after the project is finished in order to call it a success isn't legitimate in my opinion. Simply put, such a project failed to meet its goals. We need to be more comfortable admitting when that happens so that we (and others) can learn from the experience.

--Keith :mrgreen:

I just found this page on a (hopefully?) reputable acoustic foam seller's Web site. It does a pretty good job of explaining the difference between soundproofing and acoustic treatments. Unfortunately, soundproofing is not cheap, nor is it easy. If there were a way to inexpensively "bolt on" soundproofing, someone would become extremely rich inventing it. --Keith :mrgreen: