What Floors?

First let me say I discovered this site a couple of days ago and its crack cocaine for the audio/musician geek like me. I recently inherited a load of home studio equipment, so found this site thinking about building a home studio for my sons and myself. I am going to build it in half my garage so I can use the other half for storage. I am located in Austin Texas so that its pretty dry most of the year and hot in the summer. I basically have a 12x18 section to work with. It is an attached garage with brick exterior on the long outside wall and half brick and half hardy plank exterior back wall. Right now I just have some basic questions from my research: 1. On the flooring issue, I have seen and read where a lot of folks use a raised floor on top of the slab. My slap floor is in good shape, no cracks and was wondering if I could just refinish it and paint it with a cool pattern. I am still clueless on what if any drawbacks other than its cold. It lies on earth so I wouldn't think you would get sound transfer. 2. I realize that I will be building basically a room within a room. The question is in regards to the ceiling. Its basically low attic on top with minimal fiberglass insulation. Is it necessary to build another ceiling to contain the sound. The good thing is the breaker box is on the outside wall of the garage and will be easy to get electrical. I think I found a couple of plans in other threads here that have the layout that I would need for a CR and Live room. Right now these are the issues I need to resolve before I start the serious planning. Thanks to all the "experts" here that I have read over the last couple of days. It sure opened my eyes to a new world. Stan

Stan, welcome; before we get much further, we need you to edit your profile to include your location - I know you already told us, but when your thread gets to be 96 pages like SOME of our people I won't mention :twisted: it'll be much easier to just look at your name and be reminded. The same "sticky" that asks for that will give you a good head start on getting somewhat up to speed on terms, techniques, etc - it's here http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3231 Your space is just in the lurch between being big enough for 2 rooms and NOT - if you intend to have more than 1 or 2 people in at a time, it might be better to consider a single larger room with some "convertible" acoustic treatments - less reverb for mixing, more for tracking/jamming - just a thought. With a single room, it's more difficult to set levels without "cut and try" approach, but a good set of high isolation headphones can help some with that. One room is also cheaper to soundproof, since you don't need ANOTHER sound proof wall between the rooms, which will also rob you of valuable floor space - just a few things to think about. I personally do a lot of "one man band" stuff, including shooting/editing corporate training/safety videos, writing the sound track, doing voice-over, etc, and for me a single room works well. Others have different needs, YMMV as they say. Be sure to keep HVAC in mind during this planning - IIRC, Austin's pretty humid and warm so you'll likely want a properly sized AC unit that's quiet and will help keep your humidity down. Most wooden instruments prefer a steady diet of 42-45% humidity year round, and I know in my space (Oregon) I have to have a dehumidifier running about half the time to keep my piano and guitars happy. If you've not already found 'em, read through the "stickies" at the tops of the forums and look for any reference to "mass-air-mass" in them - this is absolutely the best "bang for buck" there is for sound isolation, the better you understand this one concept the happier you'll be with your end result. Welcome to the start of sleepless nights... Steve Oh, almost forgot about your initial question - nice concrete is fine, try a search here (and maybe google) on stained concrete, it can look AMAZING... Steve

Profile Done. Okay so the vox booth is out then. I suspect it won't be more than 1 or 2 people. So 2 rooms it will be. Will have to replan a bit on floorplan. As far as HVAC I think I might have 2 options to go here: 1. Mult Split system ($$$) 2. Window Unit ($), Okay before cringing let me explain. I have concrete step up at the rear of the garage that's about 2.5 feet wide and 6 inches high. I was going to stop the studio back wall there giving me that space. Would it be possible to put a window unit in the back wall in that space and run a duct with sound proofing into the studio? Then run an exaust fan that would be located under the eave of the garage or on the roof. So I assume that the concrete is okay as far as sound issues are concerned. As far as the ceiling is concerned there is air space above the garage, however the garage in one story and the house is a two story. So the only air space is right above the garage. Is this going to give me enough isolation from the rest of the house or do I still need to seal the existing ceiling?

Duct with soundproofing? :? I have yet to see any proven designs for fashioning a window air conditioning retrofitted with an attached ducting system. All I've seen thus far has been theoretical and, to be honest, not impressive (to me anyway :roll:). You might be able to fashion a chiller room setup like Rod details in his book and as has been discussed in some detail on the forum. If money is harder to come by than square footage, this could be a viable option. Remember that HVAC stands for Heating, Ventilation, and Air Conditioning. All mini split systems provide air conditioning, some provide heat, and almost zero provide any fresh air ventilation. You will need a fresh air ventilation system as well, unless you have operable windows. There are a number of threads (some very recent) in which fresh air ventilation and the respective code requirements are discussed. I'm not really following your ceiling/attic description, but I'll say this: I would think sealing the existing ceiling is a must, and you'll probably need to have a sealed lower ceiling to constitute your inner leaf. You haven't provided your existing ceiling height yet, so I have no idea if that is even practical at this point... I'm really glad for your sake that you found the forum before you began construction on this project. :) I know that in my case I absorbed information here for weeks before starting my massive project thread, and I went through months of planning and replanning. Relax and keep studying. There's a wealth of information here (I think you've just scratched the surface so far) and we're here to help you apply it to your unique needs... We just have to have more (much much more) information from you before we can be too specific with any recommendations. In another thread (that got way out of control, but that's beside the point ;-)), I recently wrote this:

Success is defined by project owners on a project-to-project basis. If one has certain must-have goals and is able to achieve them, then by definition that is a success. Where it gets fuzzy is that people often aren't very explicit about their goals. When that occurs, we all start making assumptions, based largely on what our own goals would be. When we measure the imaginary goals against the stated limitations (usually budget), we make conclusions about the achievability of the unarticulated goals, using our fictitious goals as a substitute. This serves as a reminder to everyone to clearly state their goals when asking their questions, as well as a reminder to everyone answering the questions not to make assumptions about the goals. 8) The one thing that I (and I suspect Rod, and others) will always presume to be goals in a project is safety, structural integrity, and code compliance. Oh, alright, that's three things... But they're like peas in a pod when you think about it. So, if someone has a limited budget and certain stated goals, we'll assume it's going to be done safely, sturdily, and legitimately, which will increase costs over doing it unsafely, flimsily, and/or illegally, which may condemn it to the "it can't be done" category. Another thing... Sometimes we have goals in mind when we start a project (any project, not just studios), and then in while executing the project, we make compromises that compromise the outcome. Often the compromises are made with full knowledge, or at least high suspicion, that achieving the goals will or may be impacted, and then we usually adjust the goals accordingly. I also sometimes think there's a pride factor that comes into play when someone finishes a project and it doesn't achieve the goals as expected. Adjusting the expectation after the project is finished in order to call it a success isn't legitimate in my opinion. Simply put, such a project failed to meet its goals. We need to be more comfortable admitting when that happens so that we (and others) can learn from the experience.

Take that to heart as you embark on what I predict will be weeks of learning, designing, planning, posting, getting feedback, adjusting, challenging, perhaps arguing ;-), and then, hopefully before too long, building, building, building, spending, building, spending, spending, building, and then maybe, just maybe, playing and recording -- family style! 8) --Keith :mrgreen:

Honored to here from the man with the 89 page thread. I read most of it and gleaned a lot from it. As far as HVAC, I understand the basics of how my central air/heat works. In a closed system you have air coming out and air being sucked back through the return with fresh air coming in from opening doors and such. I was just thinking that I could simulate the same type of system using a window unit in the 3 foot area behind the studio. Run a custom duct from the air conditioner to the the two rooms and then build a return system some how. I think I may have answered my own question though in that its not really a closed system because the fresh air comes form outside the garage through the unit. I have already spent hours looking at how to build the leaves, etc. My next step is to accurately measure the space and create a floor plan and 3D rendition to get feedback on. Unfortunately I have small space to work with. Fortunately I found some good posts on how to set up the room acoustics in a small control room. As far as ceiling, it occured to me that I have a garage door to contend with. Right now I have about 10 foot (Don't quote me until I measure). But the door clearance is going to be an issue. My question on the ceiling was if I need to build another ceiling to completely isolate the room. Right now above the garage ceiling is r22 insulation and sheetroock with a pitched roof. My question is if I'm not playing Iron Maiden in the live room all the time but guitar, bass, vocals and occasionally acoustic drums do I really need to go that far in adding another ceiling. Well got more research to do. Thanks again for the help.

Hey Stan, The pleasure's mine. :-) Acoustic drums and bass are awfully nasty instruments when it comes to isolation... Bass is (obviously) all low and drums are all over the map. Low end is especially difficult to isolate. Obviously it will be much louder inside the room than it will be inside the house or outside the house... But if extreme isolation is a critical goal for you (which at this point hasn't really been articulated by you yet, non-Iron Maiden playing notwithstanding ;-)), you'll most likely need to have an inner leaf ceiling and the existing ceiling you have would be the outer leaf ceiling, and the existing ceiling would probably need another layer of drywall on it (assuming it can be added safely without overloading your trusses!!!). Three layers may even be required, although you haven't given us enough information for me (or anyone) to credibly say for sure. The good thing about Green Glue is that you can add one layer of drywall with Green Glue in between and end up with performance that comes close to four layers. While this is not a money-saver (because Green Glue is quite expensive relative to extra layers of drywall), it's a godsend when you have to be careful with keeping your dead load relatively light. In other words, one layer of 5/8" drywall is about 2.3 pounds per squre foot. Four layers is about 10 pounds per square foot, but two layers plus Green Glue is about 5 pounds per square foot, and if your trusses can only handle an extra 3 or 4 pounds of dead load, but you need superior isolation, then you have a solution without having to strengthen your ceiling framing assembly. Dig? Anyway, we still don't know anything about how close you are to your neighbors' property lines, whether isolation to/from the outside world and/or the rest of the house is considered a luxury or a must-have, whether you are more concerned about noise getting in or getting out (i.e., if you're concerned about noise getting in and you're a quarter mile from a freight train rail, you've got issues!!), etc. Bottom line, you're asking us what you need to do (and/or what you can get away with not doing), but you haven't really fully expressed what you need to accomplish (isolation-wise). Input..... Need Input.... --Keith :mrgreen: P.S.: I just reread your post, and I see you have a garage door to contend with... Yikes... :roll: ...Those are tough. You need to make some decisions about whether or not you want to retain the use of that door, and understand that high levels of isolation usually mean complete removal of the door or small likelihood of it ever being fully operable again... :roll:

Sorry about the lack of information. You know how it is when you get the idea (obsession) and you have all this crap running around in your brain. Let me sl..o....o....o....w d...o...o...w....n and use this post to give you all the information. Structure: Attached 2 car garage on concrete slab. Back wall is sheetrock/R22/Tyvex/Hardy Plank. Outside Wall sheetrock/r22/tyvex/brick. I will be building with back wall and outside wall of garage. Ceiling is Sheetrock/r22/crawl space/roof. As noted earlier there is a 3ft wide, 6 inches concrete footing along the back wall that I will stop the back wall of the studio at. Thus giving me a 3ft storage/cubby behind the studio. I am leaving the garage door in tact so I will need to contend with clearance of the rails for the second ceiling. I still need to measure that clearance. The build about area is about 12x18. The ceiling will be 12 feet on the back end and lower on the front end due to garage door clearance. (I will get exact measure this weekend and put together a rough drawing of the dimensions. Location: Outside wall is located about 45 feet from neighbor. Back wall about 60 ft from neighbor. Isolation from neighbors is primary concern. The House side of the garage connects to the utility room and bathroom. I will be building on the other half of the garage. the back wall is a about 20 feet from bay windows that go into my master bedroom so that might be an issue for isolation. Usage: Primarily 1 or 2 people recording session, maybe occasional band rehearsal or recording. The type of music will range from Classic rock to progressive rock. Most of the stuff I suspect will be recording individual components and then missing down the final cuts. Would like to have a control room and live room. Don't think a vox box is critical. Which brings up a question, if I will have a higher ceiling in one room over the other, which room is the higher ceiling more effective for? From reading I do know that bass is the big bugger to watch for because the wavelength is longer and especially critical in small studios like I am planning. I did read though that a reflective floor is a critical factor for small rooms so the concrete should be okay. Primary issue with garage door is that I will need to use the other half of the garage for storage as I have no other place to put the crap. Thanks again guys, I apologize if I am asking questions that are answered somewhere else. I am taking in as much info as I can get my hands on, but there is so much to learn. :shock: Stan

Here's the lot layout: My house is the one in the middle

Hey Stan, Good info so far. You may want to seriously consider doing a single room setup. Two rooms isn't impossible, but it is ambitious, given your limited square footage. I'm guessing (if I'm reading your information correctly) that your house was built within the past five years or so. I base this on the thickness of the walls and the raised section of garage floor at the rear. This "higher floor at rear of garage" technique seems to be is common ever since building codes were made stricter in the area of maintaining very shallow thresholds at doors and having a 36" clear area on which to step. I'll bet the area on either side of the door between th garage and the utility room is flat but for the threshold. My house was built in 1999/2000, right before this became a requirement. I'm no code expert -- but I am painfully aware of the code constraints that got in the way of my initial plans. This one in particular complicated my original floated floor plan so much that I ultimately ditched it altogether, thanks in part to Rod's advice... But I digress. ;-) I guess I'm saying all of this to point out the fact that since it appears you're in a newer home, you might also have homeowners' association, municipal planning, and/or other restrictions that may limit your options. For example, my city bans full garage conversions now, requiring at least a 10' x 20' clear area for (in theory) one car ("clear" being defined as free of walls or other permanent obstructions, although the "step up" at the rear is OK) and a fully operational garage door. I suggest you bring a sketch of your existing footprint to your municipality's permit counter, just to see if there are restrictions that would get in the way of what you'd like to do, and if so, what you might need to do to adjust your loose plans to accommodate them. Hopefully you won't have any such restrictions beyond the building codes adopted there... But it would be good to know before you inest too much of your energy. :-) I've been very fortunate to have had nothing but positive experiences at my city's building and planning department, and I wish you the same. I'm a big fan of prog rock (and prog metal specifically :twisted:) myself... You very well could have a pretty steep hill to climb in terms of isolation. Fortunately, thanks to your acreage, your family is at risk of being the biggest victim of the excessive noise. ;-) The neighbors are farther than, say, mine (I have 5 foot setbacks to the side :-x), but they're still not exempt from your noise. I remember early in my planning phase a couple of years ago visiting a pro studio in Stockton with fellow forum member mikeklooster, standing on the back lawn some hundred feet from the live room where someone was tracking some drums, and it was loud as hell. A housing development had built up around the studio (in fact, the studio is actually a converted house. The studio is "grandfathered in" because it would never be approved today. Frankly, I'm surprised it's still operating... But, again, I digress... ;-) ...The point being, drum noise carries far and wide, so be careful in your assessments and your assumptions. Solid adherence to the mass-air-mass principle, with perhaps a helping of "better safe than sorry" in terms of the amount of mass and the depth of the air, will ensure success. Finally, since you apparently have a decent sized lot (unlike me, with a mere 1/8-acre :roll:), have you considered a standalone accessory building in the back yard, or perhaps an addition like our esteemed forum member, studio911? Definitely checkout studio911's project if you haven't already: they're framing now and he grappled with many of the same questions and challenges you are facing now. Getting around that garage door of yours is going to be a royal pain in your ass... :roll: ...Especially with your requirement that it remain operable. Seriously consider not doing this in your garage. :twisted: --Keith :mrgreen:

Actually its about 8 years old. There is a step up from the garage to the utility room of about 2 feet. I live on the downslope of a hill wich you can't really see from the picture. Yeah good point on the zoning issues. I live in the "People's Republic of Austin" so they have some querky stuff. The city would love to pick up and relocate to the Bay Area I think. I also need to check with the homeowners association. But if memory serves me correctly as long its not an exterior improvement they don't care. I have seen full garage conversions in my neighborhood though. Question on single room versus 2 room layout. Advantages vs. Disadvantages?

Bear in mind that many (most?) garage conversions are illegal, so take the "I've seen some of them in my neighborhood" examples with big, fat grains of salt. ;-) The pros and cons of one room vs. two have been covered a lot here. Keep studying...... :evil: --Keith :mrgreen:

Thanks Keith, I am going to check with the city and my homeowner's "gestapo" organization. I am wondering if you have a single room, why it couldn't be declared a workshop. I guess the city can fill that in. Actually I don't have much lot space, my house sits back on the corner lot so lots of front yard, no back yard. Yeah the garage door is a royal pain, but if I go with one room maybe not. I'll play with it. BTW, I have 10th row seats for Dream Theater in Houston this summer. :twisted: Says the 45 yr old geek who is secretly into prog metal.

Workshops are generally considered "non-habitable space," but you're building "habitable space." (Not to be confused with "sleeping room" which has requirements for emergency egress, etc.) That's one of the reasons you need mechanical ventilation, in order to comply with habitable space ventilation requirements. OK, I'll see your tenth row Dream Theater seats in Houston, and then I'll raise you... I have tenth row for Dream Theater's Berkeley show and I also have platinum package 3rd row seats with meet-and-greet and such for San Diego. :twisted: Last year I saw all three California DT shows, three days in a row. :twisted: :twisted: I was listening to the special edition Systematic Chaos CD on my way into work today, which just arrived in the mail yesterday. 8) OK, I promise I won't try any more of this one-up-ness... But you certainly have gotten my attention as a geek who is now not so secretly into prog metal! ;-) Wear it with pride, my friend... :D --Keith :mrgreen: P.S.: My ride. ;-)

Since you're apparently limited to the garage space after all, then perhaps you could leave the door fully functional and intact and build your room within the back section right corner of the garage, leaving several feet of a gap between the room and the door, which would be convenient for storage and allow for a lowered section of the ceiling to accommodate a fully functioning garage door. :roll: You'll need to make allowance for unfettered access to the garage door opener. Perhaps you could do an angled ceiling that comes down into that area so that your console would be such that you'd seated facing the driveway/street, and having the lower angled ceiling overhead might be of acoustical benefit...? (Room shapes are not my area of specialty.) Envision about four to five feet of clear floor space from garage door to studio wall, then the wall goes up about four feet or so, then back at about a 45 degree angle towards the garage ceiling...? :roll: If I understand you correctly, you had considered having the "storage area" be at the rear of the garage, whereas in this scenario it would be at the front of the garage instead. If you would miss the square footage that you would lose in this scenario, then perhaps you could "bulge the room out" a bit once you clear the garage door when opened. Again, there's a chance you may have the dreaded "10' x 20' clearance for vehicle" requirement like my city does, so don't get hooked on that idea until you know for sure you could legally execute it. A detailed floor plan of your existing garage, including the location and access requirements of all the utilities (i.e., water heater, electrical panel, water valves, furnace, etc.), and an understanding of whatever municipal/community restrictions you may be facing, will be necessary in order to further the conversation in a meaningful way. 8) --Keith :mrgreen:

Sweet... on the car. Moment of silence, the engine in my 9 yr old BMW blew a cylinder and head yesterday. Just waiting to hear the damage from my mechanic. I will map out the floor plan this weekend with all the pertinent specs including clearances of the door, etc. I was looking at some of the shipping container designs that look interesting. Should I post the layout in the design section instead of here or keep the thread together? Another question, I know that wood on concrete can be a recipe for disaster. If so, what do you do when framing to the concreate floor as a barrier? BTW, I would have equaled your DT feats if they played down here more. They played in Austin 5 yrs ago and I have to go to Houston to see them this time. Of cours my 15, 17 yr old sons will be with me. :)

Your 15 and 17 year old sons are lucky to have a dad like you. 8) Good luck with your car... That doesn't sound good at all! :( I'd suggest determining your local building restrictions (if any), then sketch out the footprint of the entire garage and its immediate surroundings with all of the utility and other details... It probably would be a good idea to start a thread in Design once you have that together, then post a link from this thread to that one, get feedback on the layout and dimensions, and then resume the construction discussion once you have a solid idea of what it is you'll be building and precisely where. 8) Soleplates of walls are made of pressure treated wood, and Sillseal (which is a closed cell foam strip that comes on a roll) is really good as a capilary break. I'm a fan of anchor bolts for securing soleplates to the slab, as opposed to nails. Anchor bolts are much more secure. --Keith :mrgreen:

I agree on the anchor bolts thing. I tend to build stuff to last a nuclear detonation. But its better to overengineer the frame so that its suitable to hold the drywall. Thansk for the the suggestions will do.