New Studio in Thessaloniki - Greece

you definitely don't want a square room but the ratios will be defined by the available height and space. volume of the room will play a major role in defining the closest ratio.

Nikodemos, As you asked me to, i am describing there the isolation part i intend to do in my own recording studio. Sorry i didn't have time to put a layout of it, but i am working on a sketchup file that i will put in my next thread. So here it goes: Wall structure - Air gap >>>>>>>>>>50mm - Rockwool(70kg/cm) >>75mm - Gypsumboard(or any waterproof replacement) >13mm - Sheetblok or equivalent >>2,7mm - Gypsumboard(or any waterproof replacement) >13mm - Ecorubber (floor/wall junction) Floor structure: -Sylomer plots -Cement floor -Sheetblok or equivalent -Plywood floor Ceiling structure: Solution A:Suspended ceiling -Air gap >80mm -Glasswool >100mm -Akustar suspensions -Gypsumboard(or any waterproof replacement) >13mm -Sheetblok or equivalent >>2,7mm -Gypsumboard(or any waterproof replacement) >13mm Solution B:Semi-suspended ceiling+lying on wall parts -Air gap >80mm -Glasswool >100mm -Stilprim or Megastil system -Gypsumboard(or any waterproof replacement) >13mm -Sheetblok or equivalent >>2,7mm -Gypsumboard(or any waterproof replacement) >13mm 1) I still have to know more about the stilprim/megastil prim system, as i don't really know how it comes, dimensions, etc...I have to know which one of these both solution will allow to cover my 4,70m range wide. But what i am sure is that these both systems are the main system used here in France, in most big recording studios, according to professional acousticians here.That limited suspended ceiling means that i have to get a solid wall structure, which is still in question now.I may have to make the ceiling lying on cement/stell posts at regular places along the wall position. And what i know about the first solution (totally suspended ceiling) is that these suspensions are pretty expensive... 2) I still have to be sure of what i'll do with that floating floor question...I may need further help here in that forum, or maybe even get a local measurement for vibration coming thru the concrete, from a room to the other.That would allow me to be sure of what to do with that, but the counterpart is...The price, of course! The acoustician ask me 1000€ for that measurement, which is a painful costy fo me... :oops: So i would prefer getting a good and definitive advice there from anyone ! :o I didn't really studied the windows/doors questions, but i have some ressources about that.What i know is that the density of these should be the same as for the walls...

Nightmusic Be aware that this sheetblok is mainly an expensive mass with a low cost/effectiveness ratio. You can do this, but if you advice it someone else I feel the need to intervene. Certainly on that floor it's much cheaper and faster to glue the money meant for the sheetblok on the cement floor than the sheetblok itself. The acoustic effect will be similar. That Sylomer floor you linked somewhere is Paul Woodlock's studio (origin Studiotips), and he cut these pieces himself with a jigsaw. It's rather expensive if you order them cut, and it's not the standard manner Sylomer advises such application. They normally use densities adjusted to the static load they're to be used for. The wat Paul did it is to make it cheaper under the condition he did all that work himself. Lower densities of Sylomer are cheaper but not linear with the weight they can carry (hence 100% coverage with low density sylomer is more expensive than these blocks Paul made with fractional coverage). Sylomer comes from Getzner and is Austrian from origin. http://www.getzner.com/Werkstoffe/finished/index.php :? I seem (supperficially searching) not to find their foreign distributors on that site ...... Strange .......

Mr.Desart do you think that all these vinyl deadsheets are useless and a loss of money? What about GreenGlue?

Nikodemos wrote:

Mr.Desart do you think that all these vinyl deadsheets are useless and a loss of money? What about GreenGlue?

No they aren't if used in the right applications mostly related to thin steel, industry, special things etc, and as free-hanging isolating curtains. It can help to improve isolation of a weak wooden floor etc. Too extensive to go into depth. In studio groups in 90 to 95 % of the cases I see it used or suggested for, it's indeed a VERY unefficient manner to spend your budget. And as an extreme: to put it on a heavy cement floor equals almost throwing away your money. Green Glue brought to principle of constrained layer damping to a practical maximum. Indeed it's good. But still look at their site to check the how, when and why's. There is no magic. But for what it's designed for, it must be about the best there is. If it's cost effective, one should judge in function of your specific needs.

Eric, Thank you for all these informations! I didn't know the origin of sylomer pics that i gave link, as it was just posted in a french forum saying 'a guy in U.S. made this,etc...'That will allow me to reach Paul Woodlock's studio further informations at studiotips.

it's not the standard manner Sylomer advises such application

Do you know the way it is supposed to be installed? Maybe i have to contact Gedzner in Austria to know more about Sylomer supposed installation. Well, please note that i didn't suggest about using sheetblok, i just answered to Nikodemos who asked me which isolation structure i intended to use by myself. But still there, you come at the right point, as getting cheaper installation is always welcom ! :) So do you mean that i'd better add cement thickness on the floor,instead of using sheetblok there? The thing is that i am also looking for getting thinner floor as possible, as i don't have very high ceiling. I gave sheetblok as a reference, as i am sure anyone would figure which material i talk about.That is why i said 'or equivalent', because i don't intend to use sheetblok by myself, but a cheaper material which seems to be similar.I know it is on sale here in France, but not sure in U.S. (so i didn't gave the reference): It is called 'Madex 4' http://www.rt60.net/iso_madex.htm (You will see the prices at bottom of the link). Still would it be low cost/effectiveness ratio if used for walls? ---- Well, would you have any further opinion about floating floor question? I have read the whole thread here about that, and even if my studio won't have any neighboorhood constraints, i still wonder if sound wouldn't go from a room to another, if my floors aren't floated. Note that my original floor is steel reinforced concrete, and lies directly on the ground.I admit that not floating my floor would give me higher ceiling resulting :) but i wouldn't want to have bass isolation problem, especially into vocal booth, which i think is the most critical space to record. :roll:

Our posts were created in the same time, so i didn't have your last answers before posting mine.You answering to most of my questions. Ok, i won't use that sheetblok kind for the floor, anyway... :wink:

Still any point of view regarding my floating floor question? :roll:

Actually i was asking about MLV and Green Glue regarding putting them between gypsumboards on the walls and not on the floor :wink: As i get it these products are put there in order to smooth the TL responce at the coincidence dip, the reasonance point of the partition,right?...so i guess that they all work pretty much the same way with slightly different results regarding the final STC of the wall....my question is which is preferable: to use this kind of material sandwiched between 2 layers of 12,5mm gypsumboard or use that money to double the mass adding 2 more layers of gypsumboard on each side of the wall? ......or even better do them both :D Nightmusic as i posted on your other thread i think that you could float only some critical(regarding sound levels) rooms like a drum booth and leave the existing slab as it is where possible. In my case the problem is that sound is traveling through the floor and building's structure reaching appartments in higher floors quite clearly....and that with an empty open parking space on the ground floor :cry: So the question for me is what is the best sollution in floating a concrete floor regarding cost,ease of installation,availability of materials and ofcourse some special criteria like moisture in the basement. Eric (i hope it's ok to call you Eric) would you propose something specific on that? and what be the best way for someone not familiar with Excell to calculate the resonat frequency of the concrete floor? thanx Nikodemos

N & N This whole thing is very stylized and simplified. Floating floor and isolation: A floating floor is needed when in becomes a limiting factor in the isolation one wants to obtain. Some posts: http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.p ... ght=#36352 http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.p ... ght=#38728 Nikodemus:

Nikodemus wrote:

As i get it these products are put there in order to smooth the TL response at the coincidence dip, the resonance point of the partition, right?...so i guess that they all work pretty much the same way with slightly different results regarding the final STC of the wall....

This is about as wrong as could be. Nikodemus, I really am no good in writing stuff, bad in spelling, but if you can read over that, I only tell things I know, or make it clear that I assume stuff. I don't think that's what I was telling before. There is no real valid comparison between both whatsoever in this kind of application. One is mainly expensive mass almost dreaming it can control this resonance enough with PSEUDO CLD (poetic license), the other really works based on physical principles related to CLD (constrained layer damping). Just seeing and feeling GG and understanding the function of viscous material (it's the viscous part in the visco-elastic material) and CLD will immediately show you're talking about different things. I don't promote the use of GG unless really needed or cost-effective, but acoustically it's indeed something very good. :mrgreen: Rather than visco-elastic, one could give GG a new class name: a visco-sticky material About isolation and floating floors: I know the extensive topic here about floating floors: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8173 The content is very good, but I have some question marks as well. If you look at the 1st Studiotips link, you'll notice that I find these things influenced by people having lots of experience with drywall (typical US in as far as I understood), but less with the practices in countries where solid bricks and concrete are the traditional building materials. With drywall the overall insulation is mostly defined by the MSM, typical for double leaf systems. With solid single leaf brick walls you get a different behavior. You don't have this MSM dip. An overall isolation is strongly defined by the weak points of different isolation systems. The drywall is better than the solid wall in the mid and high frequencies but worse at the MSM. Hence since the drywall's overall isolation is mainly defined by this MSM it has little sense to improve a concrete floor as long as the sound transport (TL) through the drywall MSM point is worse. However, I also do believe that too easily now (influenced by this drywall approach) the sense of floating floors is underestimated. I do have experience with solid brick and concrete structures, since I live in area where that are the traditional building practices. But how much isolation is needed? Often people, when thinking about a studio, they automatically link that to extreme high isolation between rooms. If one has a TL of 40 to 50 dB music sound (not STC) between control room and tracking, in a studio where these rooms work exclusively together, that's enough (but not enough towards coupled neighbors). If you monitor a recording with a level difference of 40 to 50 dB you do a pure monitoring, hardly disturbed by that (about identical) low level sound coming trough. In lots of cases I have the feeling that people overestimate the TL they really need, just because that thing is called studio. And I also believe that lots are pleased with the obtained TL, not because it's that high, but because they don't need more, it works as it should and expected, and therefore assuming their TL is most likely rather to very high. Also the background noise in the room (ventilation, computer fans, other cooling) can give a false picture about the real obtained TL as a result of the masking effect. It becomes an entirely different matter when rooms can or must work independently from one another. If someone is practicing drums, while simultaneously you want to record a woodwind (classical with huge dynamic range and silent passages) or a vocal in another room that becomes an entirely different matter. Sometimes it seems to me that the needed isolation between studio rooms is over-estimated and the isolation needed towards neighbors underestimated (they need more than the isolation needed between control room and tracking, in lots of circumstances as in the case of coupled houses and so on). In such cases (individually to be studied) a floating floor can become easily a must. I also hear John often about the relativity of these floating floors, and the perfect isolation obtained with relative lightweight double leaf walls. I find such things easier to judge with real TL numbers versus frequency. I know how hard it is to obtain high isolation values mainly defined by the lows. I don't do detailed calculations anymore in groups. Nikodemus if you want to know how to calculate that without knowing Excel or comparable, you either need to find a friend doing it for you and use the suitable math, or ask the supplier to calculate this for you (CDM, Sylomer and E.A.R distributors all have designated software to help their clients with that). You of course can always hire someone as well. At the E.A.R. site (can't find it directly now = EDITED: see lower) you find VERY useful related white papers where the formulas are clearly explained. But the basis is all the same. It is the deflection under static load which defines the acoustic quality of that floor. Hence you can obtain that with lots of different stuff. 2.5 mm deflection under static load obtained with rockwool, fiberglass, foam, neoprene or rubber patches, CDM cork agglomerates, Sylomer from Getzner or from E.A.R. (that's comparable stuff) or solutions from Kinetics will all result in a comparable decoupling (read acoustic quality) of the floor. Hence the difference is mainly to be found in mechanical, chemical, etc. quality/properties in function of aging, mounting methods, allowed deflection and so on. There is lots written about this already, also here in the forum. Some links: not checked on validity now: 1] Proctor and Son. UK Sylomer Distributor http://www.proctorgroup.com http://www.proctorgroup.com/index.asp?c ... 0Isolation 2] CDM Elastomers http://www.cdm.be/ 3] Christie and grey - Lots of different anti-vibration products, for floors ceilings, etc, etc http://www.christiegrey.com/ 4] Concrete Forum - believe it or not http://www.concrete-home.com/discussion ... um.php?f=7 5] EAR - The basics of Vibration isolation - design your own floating floor!! Excellent site and papers http://www.earsc.com/HOME/engineering/T ... asp?SID=61 6] Sylomer Specifications - German http://www.telle.de/sylomer_telle/typen3.htm You'll notice that Sylomer in function of density and target load is color coded. The max static workload per type is noted on these pages. You have to aim to this max work load. The material itself can safely withstand higher short-term loads. However these numbers are for full coverage. With small pieces an additional parameter, the shape ratio comes into the picture. They have other non- or less-standard types as well (lighter & denser than on that page). In catalogs you'll find only/mainly the standard stuff. Nightmusic: Standard they will advice the nearest density suitable for your load assuming an about 100 % coverage. That's acoustically not better than the PW studio approach and often more expensive (if you do most of the work yourself). The reason they advice this as such is simply that they work mostly on an industrial scale where all this additional work costs a lot of money and is less practical. Therefore they produce all these densities.

Thanx for all this info Eric :D well now i think i got the GG - MLV thing!!!! Actually i never meant that i got this(wrong now !!) impression from you....what i meant is that based on what i've read in books and on the net i assumed that these products were AIMING at the same target.....i certainly do not know what they really do and how they work since i've never actually seen them!!!...anyway i wanted to say that what i said wasn't a conclusion of what you said and that your writing and spelling is great(at least compared to mine :D )...so i'll research the possibilities for GreenGlue(cost/availability)......my main problem will be that nbody here in Greece haven't even heard of it and so there is absolutely no experience in it.And you can't imagine how difficult can it be to convience a Greek technician to do anything different from what HE knows :cry: regarding the floating floor well i definetelly belong to the second category....i couldn't describe my situation better!!! My basic concern is to stop the sound from reaching the neighbours through the concrete structure and to get the best isolation between rooms in the studio since this is going to be a multi purpose studio with a practice room next to a tracking room....so i guess floating floor is a must. On the other hand do you think that someone(like Nightmusic) who worries only for sound flanking through rooms could only float the floor of a certain room instead of the whole studio? well now i'm going to check all these links and info....i'll guess it'll take a couple of years :D thanks again for all your help Eric i'll be back with another million of questions and wrong statements :D

well Eric, What an important resources of informations you giving there! Definitively you're the man of the situation :wink: I also will go asap to these links, and sure will be back with some others questions, as Nikodemos. I also have to go deeper into the MLV/GG concepts, as i never got any idea about these solutions...These are totally new products for me, as i never really heard about them before.It is about to change all my ideas about that isolation part, i think. :roll:

hey nice people i have another question regarding the way the wall studs should be placed regarding to the ceiling.....i made 3 options...in the first one the studs stand on both the concrete ceiling(with some kind of decoupling i guess) and on the floating floor and the new ceiling is built inside the drywall. On the second one the wall studs are mounted on the new gypsumboard ceiling and on the 3rd the studs are mounted on the ceiling studs before any gypsumboard is hanged in order to seal the ceiling and wall joints with overlapping layers of drywall. I think the best options are 1 and 3 because the wall-ceiling joints will be sealled better...but i don't know if scenario 3 is going to be strong enough.....what do you think?