Mixing room

Sup? :) Ok , now that i have commited myself to tearing out all the stuff the preivious owner did in the studio, I need to do something to hold me over in the mean time so to speak. Since my last band broke up, most of my gear has made its way home and been shoved in my little jam room, which hasn't been a problem since i have just been recording ideas and scratch tracks and such,,BUT,,, since i'm in a new band and would like to do some of my serious work tracking and mixing at home as i live waaaaaaayyyyy out in the country and the more i can do here the better. Now, i mostly track my guitars direct from my racksetup, or go clean from the rack and re-amp in the box. Not often, but occasionaly i'll throw a mic on a cab, but i just run it into the living room and close the door for that,,but mostly direct from the rack, so 95% of my use of this room will be mixing of some sort. I cant really hear my wife when she watches the tv Way on the other side of the house in the livingroom, unless its dead silent with the door open and the tv is cranked,,, and she is used to me being LOOOUUUDDDD so Sound isolation to the rest of the house is of no concern, as i'm not going for sound-proof, just sound-great :) OK,,,on to the plan... My room is 14'3"L X 13'3 3/8"W X 8'H,,with a little corrodoor to the door to the next room wich makes that the longest measurement of 17', 3 3/4". The room has a couple of guitar display and CD storage unit around the entrance door that are permanant and I have installed some bookcases on the closet wall but they can be removed easy if need be,as they are only attatched with 4 screws in each one, cept the one over the closet door which is attached with 8, but easy just the same. Here is a pic of the units before i put the venier on to give an idea, and the guitar display.I have also included the pic, and sketchup file of the room. There is one window with an air-con. unit, but the window has been isulated and capped with 3/4 plywood then cutout for the air-con. unit. I've been kicking around a couple of ideas about what i would like and have been looking at alot of posts on small rooms. I'd like to have soffit mounted speakers. I'm thinking of the Event Precision 8 actives. I am going to modify my mixer desk and cut the top racks from 7 spaces down to 4 as i orig. built the desk to put the monitors on top laying sideways, but if i soffit the monitors i think i would get a major relection of it from the wolfer. the carpet in the room is going to go and i'm going back with sticky tile, and maybe a throw rug if need be, and i have rented a starage unit for all the stuff i am not using so i can move it out of the room. I really like Kendale's soffit unit and the use of Johns slat absorbers in that design, becouse its all modular, and could be moved around as needed and could see building something like that, but i wouldn't really have to have the depth in the center for the computer monitor i suppose,, as i could go with a couple of flat pannels to just hang in the center, if that would be better. Could the actual Speaker Soffit be made as a self contained unit with a 30 deg. face? and then just set in place? Or would it be beter to build it as all one unit? I could also see building a complete new soffit wall, in front of the existing wall also, which actually seems like less work but i am willing to go either way. I could also build pannel absobers on hinges to mount on the bookcases like doors if they stay. and could make one to be flush with the face of the bookcase in front of the closet door on a hinge so i can open it if i need to get in the closet. Will the 9 or so inches behind the pannels help or hinder? should i make them with some sort of angle or "W" shape to break up the flat wall they make behind me? I did have a cool conversation with a guy at a local supply house and the guy has set back 10 bags of rigid fiberglass for me,that had been left over from a couple of jobs, half Owens Corning, half Knaff,,but its all 2'X 4'X 1.5" unfaced,,and there is 12 pieces (192 sq ft.) to a bag, which would be equal to 6 pieces (96 sq ft) of 3". and woud give me 30 2'X4'X8" pannels,,, that he is gonna hook me up with really cheap to get it out of his way, they also carry rockwool too. would it be better to use one or the other for the soffits? Or both in some kind of combo? i already have alot of lumber out in the studio i can use, and am not counting the money on the Rigid F.B. but I guess i could spend $1000 or so for a buget, I have a few more Questions, but its getting late and i dont type fast :) soooo,, Any help would be greatly appreciated thanks Dave

Here's a way of building it Dave. cheers john

I always love seeing your designs. In this design, and in many others I've seen you post, you use slats to keep the acoustic treatment from sucking up all the high frequencies. Are those tuned to any specific frequency or just random sizes of wood and gaps between them? Thanks, Jeff

thanks for the kind words Jeff. This was a modular system I've been playing around with. The slots are mounted on boxes that are removeable. In fact the whole front system can be walked out the room. I would divide the box up into further boxes behind the slots to broaden the absorption as each section would be tuned to it's own center frequency. If you look at the slot wall modules in Oasis there are separate boxes behind each group of slots making a total of 6 different frequency centers. Similarly with the Mobile Van slots. cheers john

John, this is great! It's quite similar to what I've been thinking up for my studio build. The front is almost exactly.... your angled side slot resonators I was going to build in 4x8 modular sections, hopefully 3 deep in my case (my room is 11.5x18.5x8 ), with lots of heavy absorption in the rear of the room. I was going to build each modular assembly as an inside-out wall design with a slot resonator on the front. They will be affixed to my concrete slab foundation, and caulked airtight, but if necessary I could remove them, move them, and reinstall in a new location without destroying them. Quite a bit of labor though....

SUP? :D THANKS John! that looks smokin 8) and is really close as to what i had envisioned ,,,nice use of the display pic also ;) and I like the variable frequency idea behind the slats I dont have much time now to ask in detail, but i'l throw a few quickies out, the modular design is of this strikes me as a extreemly cool thing, and i love it, but if everything is the full 8 feet,, how do i get it in and out? Could i make everything in two halves,,ie)..upper and lower? As for the soffits, I guess you answered my question about a self contained and movable unit :wink: could this also be made as two halves? Maybe right below the 5/8 plywood in you soffit design? does the side of the display facing the air-con unit need some sort of treatment? as it is a hard surface to my back? and the unit around the air-con and across from it are just regular brodband absorbers? Well, thats all for now i guess, I really apreciate the help too,,,this is gonna be a cool little room :) oh,,here is a quick pic of the rig so you can see what i ment about cutting the top racks down to 4 instead of 7 spaces.. Thanks DAVE

the modular design is of this strikes me as a extremely cool thing, and i love it, but if everything is the full 8 feet,, how do i get it in and out?

Yup - I extended them to fit your room - they were originally 7ft. lean them over 90 degrees. ;)

Could i make everything in two halves,,ie)..upper and lower? As for the soffits, I guess you answered my question about a self contained and movable unit could this also be made as two halves?

yup.

does the side of the display facing the air-con unit need some sort of treatment? as it is a hard surface to my back? and the unit around the air-con and across from it are just regular broadband absorbers?

The rear cloth and display pic is all insulation with cloth front. All the rear is absorption and the front reflection - except for the area across the front up to console height to stop reflections off your monitors and gear coming back to you. Great rig Dave :D- I'm sure you can cut it down ;) That big screen can go where the front slots are - seems your screen was destined to go there. Now if only we could find a graphic artist who could create a cloth with skulls..... :shock: cheers john

Sup? thanks for the comps on the rig John :) I think the next one i build will be built on the Argosy desk i think,,a little more streamlined,,and i still love my D8B,,i'm still finding little tricks it can do :wink: I have decided to go with exactly what you have sketched, but in upper and lower halves to get the full 8 feet ,cause the more and more i look at it and dink around with the Sketchup file the more I love it and i think it is the perfect thing for me to do.

The rear cloth and display pic is all insulation with cloth front.

Thank you for clarifing that,,thats easy enough. The slats are sealed units ,,correct? Is the front unit made essentually like your rear wall absorber HERE ? If i build the units in upper and lower halves, what whould be suitable to put between them to keep away any rattles if needed,,,Felt perhaps? with the soffits being made upper and lower, and i'm going to be using active speakers, I already know i have to vent the the box that the speaker sits tightly in,,,other than for the cables, do i port the upper and lower sections together for air flow like in your soffit wall design? As i know the SKP file wasnt ment to be archetectual blueprints for me, although the measurements are damn near dead on , i have a few more questions on the soffits themselves as being constructed as individual units but am short on time again so i'll have to get to them later....I wish i could type as fast as i can play :lol: thanks for all your help Dave

Sup? I haven't had much time to be on here lately on this computer, but have been working out some of the building details on my laptop, when i find the time as I've been covered up with work lately,,which is a good thing :) I'm gonna follow the general design of the SKP. file but with all the units being upper and lower halves,and have got my cutting plans done up for the 17 sheets of MDF for the cabinetry. I've even allowed 1/4 in. (or better for some to have some strips for fabric, and slat stops left over) between each piece to allow for the 1/8 in. kerf the saw takes. This will build the front unit, the 2 speaker soffits, the 2 slat units, and the two broadband units. I'm gonna build the units for the bookcases out of some 1X4's i already have and put them on hinges so i can just open them to get into the cases. I think when I make the slats I'm gonna stain them with the red mahogany stain i have left over from the kitchen cabinets,,,that oughta look good. I do have one quick question,, If the front baffle is connected directly to the soffit cabinet, how do i decouple the speaker, when it is enclosed in the box that is built around it but is still on the platform( or in my case the bottom of the upper cabinet) that is conected to the cabinet itself ? ....like in the explode of the soffit pic does adding the mass around the speaker compensate or negate some of the effect for this or am i missing something? as i have seen some others that are built the same way and have wondered about this from reading all the posts talking about decoupling the front baffle. could you please set me strait on this :? :) anyway, once again,, thanks for all the help, i sure do appreciate it Dave

Aloha, Nice looking plan, Dave.

If the front baffle is connected directly to the soffit cabinet, how do i decouple the speaker, when it is enclosed in the box that is built around it but is still on the platform( or in my case the bottom of the upper cabinet) that is connected to the cabinet itself ? ....like in the explode of the soffit pic

One approach might be using a rubber pad - in my case I used two 1/2" layers of a rubber conveyor belt that a friend of mine gave me. Hope that helps, Aloha 8)

kendale wrote:

Aloha, Nice looking plan, Dave. One approach might be using a rubber pad - in my case I used two 1/2" layers of a rubber conveyor belt that a friend of mine gave me. Hope that helps, Aloha 8)

Aloha :) how bought a quickie before work :lol: From reading posts I've come across diffrent stuff,, what exactly is the function of the box around the speaker? to add mass, a dampning effect,, to keep the speaker aligned ? or combo of the above? If the box around the speaker is supposed to be made as a tight fit, wouldn't i have to put a pad around each side of the speaker? Or did you mean between the box and the shelf it sits on? How would i attach the box to the rubber pad to keep it from vibrating around,,, adhesive, short nails, etc.? or would the weight alone be enough? thanks DAVE

Aloha,

From reading posts I've come across different stuff, what exactly is the function of the box around the speaker? to add mass, a dampening effect,, to keep the speaker aligned ? or combo of the above? If the box around the speaker is supposed to be made as a tight fit, wouldn't i have to put a pad around each side of the speaker?

The answers to these questions are around here...somewhere...but they escape me at this moment. I'll try to find them and post later. A search and review of the stickies may also prove fruitful.

Or did you mean between the box and the shelf it sits on? How would i attach the box to the rubber pad to keep it from vibrating around, adhesive, short nails, etc.? or would the weight alone be enough?

In my case, I simply positioned the monitors (Mackie HR824's) and their weight alone seems to keep them in place. There is a design on the Speaker Forum http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=718 that suggests straps if you're angling them downwards to the mix position. Here's another good read - http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... it&start=0 Hope this helps, Aloha 8)

Aloha :) I refer to those most every day trying to see if maybe i'm just missing something when i'm searching. In Johns soffit design picture, it appears that there is no decoupling from the speaker mass box cause the baffle is attached right to the framing that the mass box is attached to. Maybe something like this might work,,,make the speaker "mass box"(for lack of a better term) attached to a couple of platforms to raise the height of the speaker, and line the rubber on the top of the lower box, cut the opening in the upper box so it goes over the speaker and sits on the rubber and the upper box and baffle never comes in direct contact to the speaker, mass box, or the lower unit. comments? :D Thanks, DAVE

Aloha Dave, Interesting thoughts, but it seems like a lot of extra work. Will it work? Perhaps those with more learning than I may be able to chime in and share some thoughts. Be sure that when mounting your front bezels that they also do not contact the monitor side surfaces and are flush with the monitor face. Aloha 8)

kendale wrote:

Aloha Dave, Interesting thoughts, but it seems like a lot of extra work. Will it work? Perhaps those with more learning than I may be able to chime in and share some thoughts. Aloha 8)

I hear ya brother, I'm just hitting brick walls trying to find the answers,,maybe I'm asking all the wrong questions :?: On a semi related issue,,looking at your unit,it appears to be what we get here as partical board, Was there any specific reason you used this as opposed to MDF (Weight , price, availability)? What is the thickness, 5/8, 3/4 ? Is there anything you would have liked to have done different? I noticed in the early pics of your slats above you racks, you can see through them, after you insulated them did you seal the backs? And was there a big difference? Is there insulation on the inside of your baffles? Now,,, I'm back to the search function.. :lol: thanks DAVE

Sorry Dave - just noticed your question. The box around the speaker box is simply to allow a seal across the front to the rear section cavity. The speaker box should fit tight into this box and be flush with the front panel. It won't go anywhere, there's no need to strap it down or anything. cheers john

Aloha,

On a semi related issue, looking at your unit, it appears to be what we get here as particle board. Was there any specific reason you used this as opposed to MDF (Weight , price, availability)?

It was what was available out here and affordable.

What is the thickness, 5/8, 3/4?

3/4”

Is there anything you would have liked to have done different?

Several actually, but mostly for cosmetic reasons: - Centered the unit better between the left side wall bookcase and right side racks - Used a better color matched wood framing that didn’t show through the cloth facing - Used a furniture grade maple ply for the bezel fronts (layered with MDF/Ply/Particle board

I noticed in the early pics of your slats above you racks, you can see through them, after you insulated them did you seal the backs? And was there a big difference?

Yes, they are insulated and sealed, the difference is incredible. Much of the midrange haze is gone and the top end detail and sound stage is so much more defined.

Is there insulation on the inside of your baffles?

Yes, there is insulation (3" Roxul mineral wool) in all of the baffles/absorbers. Hope this helps, Aloha 8)

Hello :) sorry for the LOOOOONG delay in responding they got me covered up at work, i'm actually writing this from the shop office while i'm waiting for a P.O. for a house that we have to do....SHHHHHHHHH :lol: Anyway,,,i got my deal on the O.C. 703 yesterday i have 7 bundles of 2 X 4X 1.5in which doubled up will give me will equivalent to 42 2x4x8 pannels 3in thick,and in a week or two i'll go back an pick up a couple of bundles of mineral wool 2x4x 4in that the guy said he could let me have for around 30 a bundle. The wife is going on a 2 week trip next month, and thats when i'm gonna do my build, which i'll fully document and post up as i do,,,I think that building all this is going to be easier than emptying this room :lol: I only have a couple of questions that i'm still unclear about on the decoupling of the speaker from the front Bezel due to me making the speaker soffits as 2 cabinets( upper and lower) and not as one solid unit where the speaker stand would go all the way to the bottom.

John Sayers wrote:

Sorry Dave - just noticed your question. The box around the speaker box is simply to allow a seal across the front to the rear section cavity.

OK, i can grasp that,

John Sayers wrote:

\The speaker box should fit tight into this box and be flush with the front panel.

now of all the pics i see with this box, some only the speaker protrudes through the front bezel, and some the box speaker and all protrudes through the front bezel,, which is more correct? does it matter? and, the box still ,,does not touch the front bezel in any way,,,correct? and i guess the biggest question for me is still ,,, If i'm building upper and lower cabinets, and the speaker bezel is attached to the top cabinet,, if my speaker is mounted inside the box and the box is attached to the bottom of the upper cabinet,,does this not still couple the speaker to the front bezel? Is this method going to be acceptable? , or going to have very negative effects on the quality of the sound? PLEASE,,tell me the best way of attaching the speaker for the best sound quality and decoupling, given my circumstances of upper and lower cabinets,,,and (if you don't mind and have the time) why. Kendale,,,

kendale wrote:

Aloha, - Used a furniture grade maple ply for the bezel fronts (layered with MDF/Ply/Particle board

Is there insulation on the inside of your baffles?

Yes, there is insulation (3" Roxul mineral wool) in all of the baffles/absorbers. Hope this helps, Aloha 8)

I guess what i meant to ask was, if you had applied any insulation to the back of your bezels. One more general question, for some reason All the lowes and Home depot's and the smaller supply houses are out of 3/4 MDF and apart from that only carry 5/8 partical board. does it all have to be built using 3/4 stock? is 5/8 still acceptable? i can understand the thicker the material the more dense,,,, what about plywood, or the 3/4 sub floor material looks like wafer board, but it is 3/4 and not your typical 7/16 OSB as always, thanks for all the help :) DAVE

anyone :?: :)

Aloha,

I guess what i meant to ask was, if you had applied any insulation to the back of your bezels.

Actually, no, I didn't. But now that you mention it, I just might do so when I add the veneer to the bezel faces. Thanks for pointing that out. :wink:

One more general question, for some reason All the Lowe's and Home Depot's and the smaller supply houses are out of 3/4 MDF and apart from that only carry 5/8 particle board. Does it all have to be built using 3/4 stock? Is 5/8 still acceptable? I can understand the thicker the material the more dense,,,, what about plywood, or the 3/4 sub floor material looks like wafer board, but it is 3/4 and not your typical 7/16 OSB

MDF is denser than plywood, so would have a lower resonant frequency - either panel will resonate, but the stiffer/denser you make them, the less (and lower frequency) the resonance. I ended up going with 3/4" particle board because that is what was available at the time. You could go with 2 layers of 5/8", but I would probably avoid using the OSB material. Hope this helps, Aloha 8)

kendale wrote:

Aloha,

I guess what i meant to ask was, if you had applied any insulation to the back of your bezels.

Actually, no, I didn't. But now that you mention it, I just might do so when I add the veneer to the bezel faces. Thanks for pointing that out. :wink: Aloha 8)

Sup? :) thanks for clearing that up, i've been wondering that for awhile now. Since i cant get or find an answer for the best way of going about decoupling the speaker from the soffit unit for ,,,My circumstance of upper and lower units, ,i have gave it much thought,,and think i have come up with a solution that fits my particular needs... Instead of cutting a hole in the upper unit and all the extra work,,, how about i lay my rubber pad, on the "floor" of the upper unit, then build a platform for the speaker with rubber on the bottom side with "legs" made from small strips of Resilient channel that sit on top of the rubber pad on the floor of the upper unit? so it would be a sandwich of Speaker, Platform, Rubber pad, Resilient channel, Rubber pad, Upper unit floor. comments,ideas? :?: :) thanks DAVE

Aloha,

so it would be a sandwich of Speaker, Platform, Rubber pad, Resilient channel, Rubber pad, Upper unit floor.

I would order my sandwich with: speaker, rubber pad, platform. :wink: I'm not sure about the benefits of resilient channel in this application, though. Aloha 8)

kendale wrote:

Aloha, I would order my sandwich with: speaker, rubber pad, platform. :wink: Aloha 8)

Sup? :) Then it wouldn't be any different than laying the rubber pad on the bottom of the units floor and putting the speaker on top of that, as the platform would be attached directly to the units floor. Like with your unit,,,if you took out your speaker stand, which ,,IIRC , goes all the way down to the floor, and thus aiding in the decoupling of the speaker from your unit and bezel,,and put in a shelf where your speaker sits now, from the front to the back and side to side that touches every side and seals it from the bottom creating an upper box,,,,,,your bezel is still attached to the face, all the way around the perimeter of that upper box,, how would you decouple your speaker from the units shelf an bezel? Would one piece of rubber between the speaker and the unit itself be anywhere near decoupling the speaker from the unit and the bezel attached directly to the units face? it just don't seem like it would be enough. The speakers I'm buying are Event Precision 8 actives,,which come in at 32.5 lbs each,I thought with putting the speaker on a piece of MDF with a piece of rubber affixed to the bottom, would somewhat put the RC "legs" into compression/ flex which seems to be part of how the RC works, (as the weight of the drywall pulls down on the RC which goes into compression/ flex, and is now acting like a spring that aids in the decoupling of the drywall from the stud) and those legs are standing on the piece of rubber that is on the bottom of the unit,, would that not aid in decoupling the speaker from it surroundings? I'm just trying to figure out the best way to build a quality piece, as I don't want to just throw the boxes together, just to wish later " Man, if i would have just done this, or known that",,,,ya know I'm open to just about anything if the facts are solid,, I even thought about using a few inches of OC 703, as i read somewhere someone had used it with good results, (but cant seem to find what i was reading at the time),, but I feared it would compress over time and I'd wind up with my speaker touching the bezel, who knows, maybe if i put a platform on top of the 703 that was almost as big as the inside of the unit, it would distribute the weight over the entire area and the 703 wouldn't compress as much and fail over time,,,, Hell bro,, I'm searching up blanks and dead ends here, I've been looking here, other forums, articles on sound, everywhere to find any no BS, strait up, this is how to do that for this situation, or how to modify this for this situation , answer,,let alone why. The wife leaves for two weeks in just four days, that 2 week time frame is what i have to do my build, without disturbing the domestic tranquility :roll: as all my gear has to be relocated into the main living room and that will render that room useless for the duration and will look like an atom bomb went off in there,,and i think my wife will go into DT's and seizures if she cant watch the big screen :twisted: :lol: Anyway,, as always Thanks in advance Dave

the key to the support is to decouple the speaker from the surrounding frame and floor. by putting the rubber between the speaker and the support, you decouple it. you could try other things such as the the RC, which might or might not do anything useful and may create a less stable surface to rest the speaker on.

Hello everyone :) Ive been working on my build for just over a month, and have had no online computer connected to post updates,and have to get online at the folks place, or at the shop(when i can sneak on :wink: ,but i have been taking lots of pics and am almost to the point of being able to move my computer back into the room( as this is where my DSL is) and will start a thread in the under construction section as soon as i can. it looks great, and is coming along nice, i found some rubber pads at home depot, that interlock like a puzzle that would normally be installed under gym equiptment, or work area floors, and are 3/8 in. thick for decoupling my speakers from the upper cabinets, i have 3 layers so the speakers have 1 1/8 in between them and the cabinerts floor. I still have some things that need to be done, but all is comming along nicely, i am almost done hanging my cloud, and have to bring my bookcases back in as i had to tear up an replace one layer of the floor, as to come to find out that the the old air conditioner had leaked an had ruined the partical board flooring, but didn't get to the plywood subfloor due to the builder putting roofing felt between the two layers of flooring so i got that tor out and replaced it with 2 layers of osb then 1/8th in veneer then simulated hardwood vinal tile,, looks good,,,anyway,, its cooming with lots of picks,, stay tuned,,,and thanks to every one for the help thus far i'm sure i'll need more :wink: Dave