Attaching a New Studio to An Existing House

Hi Everyone, My name is Mike "Ratty" Hirsh, and I live in Melbourne. Australia. I would like to thank you all for the expert advice that is available to me on this web site and forum. It is truely amazing and inspirational. As a drummer, carpenter and college teacher, I would really appreciate some help to design a new studio. My Space and Budget I have a plot of land approximately 11 X 5.5 X 3.6 metres maximum height on my property and I would like to build it on stumps. I say stumps as I cannot afford a concrete slab. (See attached pic) In terms of the studio itself, I would like it to be versatile, for example practice area, recording area, drum and vocal booth if possible. Unfortunately, I am limited to a budget of around of $12,000 AUS. The Music The music I play is mainly Jazz and Blues, and so this small but humble space has to withstand the advances from hostile neighbours from at least ten paces. (6 metres). My Attempt at Design Although I teach carpentry and joinery, I am not that good (in fact I am lousy at CAD design or Smart draw) however, I have attempted some drawings. See my designs 1 and 2. (Please note: The main Room in design 2 has been reduced to 5 metres long.) As you can see I have not drawn in the second wall contruction or sound treatment as I am not sure of the design stage as yet. I also have not drawn in the front and side elevations yet, however, if you need them I can "draw" them easily Finally I have read heaps on design and construction, and so to John and your team any help with design options would be priceless. Once again, Thanks for all the postings available and all the links ..!!! Cheers, Ratty

Aloha and welcome to the forum, ratty Congrats on your studio build! :D Had to resize your pics to eliminate having to scroll back & forth in order to read your post. If you could keep them down to about 700 pixels wide, that works just fine. Thanks! :wink:

11 X 5.5 X 3.6 metres maximum height on my property

Is this L x W x H, and does this include your stumps? Looking forward to your build! Aloha 8)

Hi there mate, thanks for replying so soon. Yes! My dimensions are L X W X H Also the height of 3.6 metres is from ground level. (See attached pic) Hope this helps! Plus and I hope I'm not getting to ahead of myself. I cannot decide whether a pitched, lean to or flat roof construction is desired, as I know I will have to consider ventilation. (council regulations) What do you think? Thanks ratty

Sorry mate, I think I failed to make my answer to your question clear. The 3.6 metres total height does include the stumps ratty

Hi Ratty_7 I'm not the construction guru. You know more about that than I do. As far as layout, I don't really like either design. Have a look at some of John's basic designs, and go from there. For example, the Garage 1 plan looks like it could be adapted to fit your space.

yeah John's garage studio looks like a good fit. the hard part will be isolation with the floor up on piers (stumps). what about at least a row of block around the outside base? presumably you'll need footings on the piers maybe do some analysis (get quotes) on using an exterior block/concrete wall foundation versus the piers. your ceiling will also be an isolation challenge esp with the low building height restriction. i'm taking shot at your overall building in the attached sketchup file.

Aloha, Here are a few more ideas. :D Aloha 8)

Thank you so much to Kendal and Gullfo for your ideas, there fab. Gullfo Do you think the design would be better if I had a flat roof with an approx Height of 3.6 Metres from ground to top of roof on one side to about 2.6 or so on the other to allow for ventilation. And yes your idea of a concrete foundation around the perimeter is great thanks Kendal In terms of your design I like it, however could I turn the control room around to face the drum/vocal space so that I have direct eye contact with other muso's. Reason being as I am using an Analogue Mackie desk. What do you think? all the best Mike

I think the symmetry is important whichever way you go with the roof line. it also depends on aesthestic considerations for your home design. depending on your local temps, if you need AC, then I'd run it under the floor or over the top wherever the peak is.

Aloha,

In terms of your design I like it, however could I turn the control room around to face the drum/vocal space so that I have direct eye contact with other muso's. Reason being as I am using an Analogue Mackie desk. What do you think?

Perhaps something like this? Aloha 8)

Hi Kendal, Thanks for the drawings, they're great. I think I'm almost there. I like the way that the Console area is facing the playing areas, however, I have a couple of requests. 1. If you have a look at my original pencil drawing Design option 1, there is a door on the left side at the rear that leads straight into the house. In that drawing I also have another door leading into the control room. Now here's my point 2. On your drawing Ratty 2a would it be possible to make the control room area the whole width of the building which is 5.6 metres wide and still have access to the main practice room from the control room and a door somewhere at the rear of the control room into my house. If this is possible? All I have to do is get the drawings to scale with dimensions and construction can start. Thanks Ratty

Aloha,

On your drawing Ratty 2a would it be possible to make the control room area the whole width of the building which is 5.6 metres wide and still have access to the main practice room from the control room and a door somewhere at the rear of the control room into my house. If this is possible?

Almost anything is possible. May I point out a few points for your consideration as to the "why" of the design layout that might be helpful before proceeding? In Rod Gervais’ book “Build it Like the Pros,” he points out both L.W.Sepmeyer’s & M.M. Louden’s formulas most widely used in professional studios worldwide. He also notes that the orders listed are (top to bottom) the first to third best ratios in both cases. L.W. Sepmeyer Height Width Length 1.00 1.14 1.39 1.00 1.28 1.54 1.00 1.60 2.33 M.M. Louden Height Width Length 1.00 1.40 1.90 1.00 1.30 1.90 1.00 1.50 2.10 What we have in Ratty 2a.jpg is: - M.M. Louden's best case room ratio of 1.00 1.40 1.90 - head-on line of sight - smaller rehearsal area - To widen the room (which is possible) but without adjusting the remaining room ratios will give you a "less than optimum configuration." However, in Ratty 7 1a.jpg, we have: - M.M. Louden's best case room ratio of 1.00 1.40 1.90 - entire width of available space used - larger rehearsal area - access to the main practice room from the control room - and a door somewhere at the side of the control room into house - but at the expense of having a head-on line of sight. Given these points of consideration, do you still want to proceed with widening your control room Ratty 2a? If so, let me know and I'll post a revision for your review. Aloha 8)

Aloha, One more... Aloha 8)

Hi Kendal, Hey man you really are fab. Since I have had time to digest what you said last night about MM Louden's Formula, and after careful thought and discussion with the "trouble an strife", I thought it would make more sense to go with your design suggestion Ratty's studio 1a. It made more sense to make full use of the whole studio space based on the ratios you provided, rather than having the line of sight with my musicians. I guessed I would have to make that sacrifice....!!! However, I had just made up my mind to do design Ratty's 1a when low and behold you have laid another design on me Ratty's 3a......inspiring stuff.....!!! Then some bright person who will remain anonymous (thanks Gullfo hehe) suggested that I could effectively use the design "The Corner Control Room" viewable on the SAE Institute site "Studio Plans". (Sorry guys I don't know how to do the link.) would suit my space...!!! So Kendal, I have gone to deciding on design Ratty 1a or the "The Corner Control Room Design" which I have to say I really like, the only reason for this is my desire to view musicians ugly mugs.....!!!. In terms of my space 11 metres long x 5.6 metres wide x 3.6 metres high and most importantly MM Loudens ratios which of the two designs do you think would suit me best? Mike "Ratty" Hirsh

Aloha, Ah, life is full of choices, eh? :D And the winning choice is...up to you, really. :wink: If I were to offer any advice, it would be - depending on how soon you need to get this started, it might behoove you to take a little more time to do more reading, RSD site search, web research, and perhaps asking a few studio owners/operators some of the pros/cons of either design, as well as evaluating your own work flow, style & preferences. Best of success to you, Aloha 8)

Hi Kendale or Glen "Guffo" , "Ratty" from Melbourne here again. In the drawing see attachment to this email, is a final roof design to be submitted to the local council. In terms of my studio either "Ratty 1a" or the "corner studio" design, what do you think of this roof design and general room design taking into consideration all studs are 100x50 room is completely sealed ect ect...!!! Any comments please would be appreciated. Ratty

Aloha Ratty, G'day! In regard to the elevation, your plan will work for your studio provided you position the mixer at the 2.2 side of the room. This will allow the reflections off the ceiling from your monitors to be redirected to the absorbers behind you. You may also want to treat that 30 degree angle at the top so that it does not reflect back at the mix position. Aloha 8)

Aloha, I just noticed in your last pic posted that you have indicated neoprene pads. Are planning to float your floor? Perhaps this might be an interesting read for you - http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8173 Aloha 8)

Hi Kendale, Ah yes, as you have reiterated before many decisions will come my way and as I read more and more on studio design, I have become somewhat wiser, but also a little more confused. However, 1. I will not be making a final decision on the floor as I have yet to take delivery of Rod's book and it should be here this week! Plus alot more reading on this and other forums. Also I have been in touch with a well known local studio engineer/producer who has a studio in town, David Briggs is his name apparently he knows John Sayer and I am going to visit David next week to see his studio and have a chat as you wisely suggested. 2. My concreter was here today to give me a price on having a solid concrete wall around the inner stumps as suggested by Gulfo to contain the sound and also he is giving me a price on a completely new slab as well. So the upshot is this, If I go for a completely new slab and new building I probably will NOT be floating the floor on neoprene "pucks". If I do go with the stumps and concrete surround only, I have another design which I will draw up for you when the time comes. It's all down to pricing. In the mean time take care, and I'll keep you posted.....!!!! Finally I have read the link you gave me on the two new studios and the "Garage Studio" does not have a floating floor in which case they have saved lots of extra cash. The other studio I'n not quite sure about. Which leads me back to reading a lot more on floor designs. all the best Ratty in Melbourne

Hi Kendale, Hope your well...!!! After much deliberation and a a chat to my concreter, I have finally given in to having the studio floor made of concrete. Of couse this will cost a lot more, but after reading Rod Gervais's book, I'm sure that in the long run my decision to have a concrete floor will have be the wisest and most productive choice. By this I mean solid "mass" in the floor according to Rod is vital in studio floor design and the main reason is that wooden frames on stumps or piers can transmit unwanted frequencies that would penetrate through into the tracking and c/rooms which is totally undesirable in terms of isolation. Have I got this right ? Also I think neoprene pads under a sub wood frame then layers of rock ect and finally a polished wood floor could be overated....!!! I mean why would one want a cushion of rubber to isolate the room if "mass" under your floor is what you are trying to achieve. Or am I missing the point here ? Finally You made the point in the drawing "Ratty's Roof Elevation" of treating the 30 degee angle at the top of my ceiling so that I presume speaker sound waves do not reflect back toward the "sweet spot". If I am right in this presumption. I am guessing that I would first test the C/R then treat with perhaps hanging baffles? Mike "Ratty" Hirsh

definitely going with a nice slab will be better than the original idea of the floor on piers. Have your contract look over Rod's book to understand the construction details. one nice thing about the slab is you might get some additional ceiling height inside... the treatment on the ventilation soffit (30 degree ceiling-wall at the top-back) will prevent unwanted reflections back at your desk. for treatment you can put some absorption materials (2" 703 or mineral wool covered in cloth) over the soffit face (except for the vents...) and that should dampen it enough. I'm not sure you have enough overhead space for hanging much but you may need a cloud or something in the wall-ceiling corner on the front (2.7) side, even with the sloped ceiling, but you can determine that after you have things built.

Hi Glenn Thanks for your reply. Yes I am glad I have read Rod's book on concrete slabs, especially on the slab that was used at the Power Station in New England. I will make sure that my concreter studies the slab design before we pore. I now believe that it is very important, in fact it's paramount, that for anybody contemplating designing and building a home studio that one understands why mass in a floor is so important. Also your advice on treating my c/r is greatfully aknowledged and accepted. When I do get to that stage of development I will definately treat all the rooms with the utmost of care. Thanks a bunch for your imput to my project and continued support. Will keep you up to date as I go along. "keep music live" Mike "ratty" Hirsh

Hi Kendale, John, Guffo or anybody, Hope you guys are well and fit....!!! I thought I 'd better write to you as it is getting near to the start of my build. After much persuasion I have decided to have a concrete slab as opposed to piers (stumps) I'm sure it is to relief of all....especially me ...!!! Now that the trenches have been dug for the slab, and the pour will be done next week I was wondering if someone would please help me with the dimensions that will go with my preferred studio design option (Ratty 7 1a.) on page 1 I'm still not quite sure if having three rooms as aposed to two is the way to go. I think I still need a live tracking as well as vocal but not sure if the drums can go with the different instruments ie Brass woodwind, double bass and with the diverse groups such as Blues rock, and Jazz ensembles ect ect. all the best Mike “Ratty” Hirsh

Aloha Mike, Glad to hear of your progress. Here's a few dimensions and the skp file you referred to. Hope this helps, Aloha 8)

Hi Kendale, Hope your well and lovin' the sun Thanks for the dimensions mate...... Can you please tell me what those angles on both sides of my control room will be. The inner walls that are closing in to the mixing desk end. They look like around 30 degrees. Have scoured Rods book, but can't work it out....!!! Also..... someone mentioned that they also do jazz and the like and have gone from a separate drum ISO to a two roomed studio, ie larger CR and larger tracking/live area. Do you think it makes any difference to the recording of drums if I go the same route? Or would I get even better isolation with the added drum ISO? I guess I have just answered my own question, and I can just hear you say "Ahh, Life is full of choices" LOL Seriously though, in your opinion are their really any pros and cons of the different recording techniques? Mike the only stupid question is the one that's never asked.....!!!