Hey John/Kendale/Nightfly et al.
First off thanks for creating this SUPER GRANARY of knowlege! :P How great to have this as a resource.
I am planning on a home/project studio build in the next 6 months, and have a VERY preliminary question. To give some quick background I would be recording myself and others tracking probably one at a time, but whole bands may not be in the cards since I will likely have very little space to play with.
Assuming I had a small amount of space to work with, i.e. say 12 x 20 feet or so in a garage, what is the consensus on one bigger room vs two small rooms?
IMPORTANT FOLLOW-UP: What would be a minimum space for isolating a loud guitar amp without making the acoustics just terrible? 4x4? What is the minimum 2nd room size I should be considering?
Thanks! As I ramp up here, I will put more serious SKP files together etc, and get more into it.
First Post! VERRRRRY preliminary question...
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 8098.
As far as your "minimum space" question...
4x4 is not even close to enough for a loud guitar amp. In my opinion, you best compromise would be to allocate the last 4 or 5 feet of your space (length) for the booth. In other words, you'd have a booth 12' x 4', plus a control room 16' x 12'...not counting the wall between the two.
FYI...a 50 watt Marshall easily puts out 115 dB. I know from experience. :twisted:
Aloha and welcome to the forum, Evan
From what I've read here, the consensus is...that which works best in your situation/workflow/budget/etc. That said however, here's an excerpt from the SAE web site - http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.htmlAssuming I had a small amount of space to work with, i.e. say 12 x 20 feet or so in a garage, what is the consensus on one bigger room vs two small rooms?
So what size should a control room be? These days people are building bigger and bigger control rooms because so much happens in the control room now. Often the bass player and keyboard player actually sit in the control room. I often have the vocalist singing in the control room while the bed tracks go down, so a good size control room is a good idea. So many people think that you need a big studio and end up putting a poky little room at the end and call it a control room. I suggest that a control room ideally should be at least 6m x 5m with a minimum ceiling height of 2.4m. This size room means a good sized working area with space for the musos, friends and hangers on. Also because you don't want rear reflections to interfere it is better to start with a longer front to back dimension than the side to side dimension. i.e. 6m x 5m. The studio, on the other hand, requires a different set of considerations. The first to consider is do you want just one room or more? The trend nowadays is for more than one studio so the you can get isolation between players and different acoustics for each room. The acoustics you want for a live drum sound is totally different than you want for a vocal for example. I recommend at least 2 rooms. You can put drums in one, guitars in the other, keys , vocals and bass (DI) in the control room or maybe the band in one and the vocalist in the other. Getting separation between guitars and drums is usually OK in a good sized room but keeping them out of the vocal track is hard if they are all in the same room. - John Sayers
IMPORTANT FOLLOW-UP: What would be a minimum space for isolating a loud guitar amp without making the acoustics just terrible? 4x4? What is the minimum 2nd room size I should be considering?
Bryan Giles cautions however, against building a square booth saying;For an instrument to sound good you must hear a balance of its high and low frequencies. If your room is too dead in the high frequencies the instrument sounds lifeless and tubby, whereas if it's too live in the high frequencies the instrument sounds distant and has no presence. To balance a room you must have a true balance of the high frequencies and the low frequencies with the right amount of deadness to liveness. - John Sayers - SAE website
Steve (Knightfly) mentioned that "4' x 5' x 7' inside dim's is about the best modal compromise for a small booth."Be careful, a dead square booth will have low end issues (you'll hear the issues on your mic.)
Which leads to the next question: "How tall is your ceiling?" And lastly, FWIW, an opinion. I am currently in a 12' x 20' space and usually work in a similar fashion as you described. After treating the room with various absorbers and soffit mounting my monitors, I now have come to realize that it would have been advantageous to split the space to have included an iso booth for a nice, quiet, consistant vocal/iso environment. Hope this helps, Aloha 8)Modally, with a 6'4" ceiling you'd do well with wall dimensions (inside) of 5 and 7 feet. That combination shows no modal problems at all. This means that vocals in such a room shouldn't be "colored" by the room. You would want to keep the upper half, including the ceiling, absorbed with such as rigid fiberglass insulation boards, covered with a light plastic film (they shed) and fire proofed cloth (they're ugly) - you'd likely get better vocal sounds with the singer seated rather than standing, since otherwise they will be nearly at the ceiling. Being that close to a boundary (especially if it isn't absorbed) will cause comb filtering due to early reflections.
Better watch those common dimensions. Even if you can make it smaller by just running a ts cable into the iso booth, common dimensions will only reinforce eachother's modes. The same goes with dimensions that are divisible by eachother. IOW, if your booth were 4x4x8 (8' ceiling height), you'd end up with a poor booth. I think I read a reply by Bryan Giles somewhere saying that a small booth like this would create a lot of problems with low frequencies (sorry, I don't remember where the post was :( ). http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8025 Kendale replies in this thread with some good dimensional ratios from Rod Gervais' book. Also a great resource btw. His book is stickied at the beginning of the "studio construction" forum under "Rod's new book."IMPORTANT FOLLOW-UP: What would be a minimum space for isolating a loud guitar amp without making the acoustics just terrible? 4x4? What is the minimum 2nd room size I should be considering?
Thanks for the feedback, all.
Chris, I hear ya about volume :twisted: , and that's the reason I'm thinking that an iso booth is a necessity. I've tried tracking in the same room as a cranked amp (even my 18 watt budda can be deafening) and it is not pleasant.
Kendale, I've looked through your build thread and am VERY impressed with your results. Super job! I've actually purchased and started absorbing Rob's book on Design. I guess my main concern at the outset here is will those dimensions be adequate to include a booth once we get into double walls, etc. e.g. length of room is 20', w 3 one-foot walls and a 4' booth, we're talking about a CR with a length of 13'. Add treatment to that, and it's more like 11 feet. Is that a workable dimension and will it adversely compromise the sound in the room? :?:
In answer to what the ceiling height is, the answer right now is 8 feet (but that's where the drywall is- once I take that out, I'm assuming that the actual ceiling above the joists will be closer to 9 feet...?) I say right now, b/c this may not end up being the space. We're under contract for the house but we haven't closed on it yet. I'm just so damn excited to FINALLY get a studio that I've already started brainstorming about it! :lol:
Kendale, I've downloaded Sketchup and am getting familiar with it...I was wondering given the similar dimensions, do you have a rough sketchup of what you ended up going with? It would be really useful to have a template to start playing with ideas on.
Aloha Evan,
I'm afraid not as Sketchup wasn't even out when I started my project. What I do have are some SmartDraw sketches that John and others on the forum have done, and a Sketchup template based on John's SAE specs that are scaled to the measurements you're starting with. Hope this helps, Aloha 8)I was wondering given the similar dimensions, do you have a rough sketchup of what you ended up going with? It would be really useful to have a template to start playing with ideas on.
Kendale.
Thanks man these are PERFECT, just what the doctor ordered!
I think I have some more brainstorming and reading to do before I put together a formal build post! :D
(including closing on a house :shock: )
Thanks again. As the Governator said, "I'll be baaack!"