New Build Headaches for all you Gurus up Here!

Hi Guys, Hope you all had a great Christmas and are looking forward to a successful new year! Before I really get going on the details of my project and asking all sorts of questions, I thought by way of a courtesy, I'd give you some brief background. I first punched 'Recording Studio Design' into Google back in the summer and am extreemly happy to admit that after only 3 clicks came accross John's homepage, which of course led me to here! So to start off, John may I thank you Sir for your clearly unprecedented level of knowledge and expertise, and congratulate you on a truly amazing site. Next I have to say that Kendale, Knightfly, Aaronw - you guys just amaze me with your time and efforts. If Gullfo ever sees my first Sketchup attempt, he'll doubtless roll around laughing, but to be fair Glen, 10 days ago I had'nt even heard of Sketchup, let alone played with it! (Then there was Christmas!) By the way Gullfo, do you ever sleep? So where am I at the moment? Ok I've been all over John's site, read most of the SAE manual, (love it by the way), bought Rod's book back in October, (essential rerading as well!) and have been hovering all over this and the other forums here fo the last 7 months! Having just got into my early forties (you're not reading a kids post!) I find myself in a position to realistically look at my 4th studio build! Don't get me wrong, the first one I built in 1998 and was kind of ruined by my ex-wife, the second and where I am now, are really only rooms with gear in so don't count. I have much to tell you and show you, but having read the forum guidelines don't want to upload 18 jpeg's, goodness knows how much text and list of questions as long as your arm on my first post! The Brief: To design, construct and equip a state of the art digital recording facility. The studio would require a control room, a live room (maybe drum booth), an iso/vocal booth, small cloakroom (no shower), small kitchen, and whatever storage space is left (if any!) What it will offer: The facility to record live bands (not necessarily all parts at once), 5:1 surround mixing and editing, dubbing for film, corporate video and radio. Production facilities for corporate shows, computer games you name it it's got to be able to do it! Location: In my garage attached to the house in a quiet residential, non-estate, cul-de-sac! (S**T!) Neighbours: Only 1! (Phew!) Budget: This, as always, is a tricky one but, If I tell you that the equipment list includes a Yamaha DM 2000 desk, Dyn-Audio 5:1 Air system Monitoring (Air 20/25 depending on space), A dual core MAC Pro with all the trimmings, Pro-Tools HD II you'll know this is a serious build! So I'd like to cover all the building work, treatment and aesthetics for as close to £20,000.00 as I can! Details: Please see dodgy sketchup file (sorry Gullfo) cant even figure out how to get doors and windows in never mind a plausible layout, but it does help illustrate the headaches I mentioned. (It does have layers!) I've also attached a screenshot into word which was done with punch home designer before I discovered sketchup. Photos: More to follow, with your permission. The first thing I need is of course as many ideas as you may have on layout. If you need any more info please let me know! I have a large production job starting next Tues, so If I appear to go quiet after that please forgive me as I wil check back regularly. Wishing you all, and your loved ones, a cracking New Year! Kind regards and thanks for reading. Lou. :D (p.s. this way you also get time to google me if you wish! LOL!)

i would never laugh at anyones work since i know how hard it is to model things in CAD programs... :D here's a quick sketch to help you with planning... what is this "sleep" thing of which you speak? 8)

Gullfo you amaze me! Thank you for such a quick response. The 'Sleep thing' you refer to is just a satirical comment about your speed to reply to posts and the detail that you kindly provide. I've just been out for a quick beer after thinking for days about how to start this thread correctly so as to abide by the guidelines, get some response, but most imporantly, not waste anyones valable time. Halfway through the second pint I thought I gotta get back and post some more info just in case someone's on it already! Here I am and........! Well my friend - you clearly are - already! The only space I have is of course the garage not the whole ground floor. So we're gonna have our work cut out and the design will doubtless change many tines big time. (Don't ya just love creativity in action?) I Hope you guys would find it appropriate for me to let you know that I've done a lot of 'early hour' research myself to come up with some fundamental ideas - thanks to John, Rod's book and all of you for allowimg me to learn so much by just being sat on my A***E reading. I wholeheartedly aree with John's view on soffit mounted monitors, and the concept of a transverse control room with no forward facing window, since most studios are now so computer orientated, why have a window that you cant see through because of TFT screens. Furthermore if you're going down the 5:1 road we all know center monitor must be pointing at your face. (As per 5:1 reference from the Grammy boys poted here weeks ago) All I need with my iso is enough room for a singer or maybe solo musician. For the live room, I just need to accommodate a drummer with 3 pairs of hands, or brass section/string quartet etc. The foul water drain has not had a problem for 30 years however, sods law dictates that it would be wise to keep it in the live room so that it could be inspected if necessary. (Civil Engineer says 'Leave it') The topography says any problem will first occur downhill anyway! (see neighbour shot - draincover in view - 4 feet below one in garage.) That's gonna have to be it for the mo, which I know is now way enough info, but my girlfriend left 20 mins ago to pick up her daughter, and I'm supposed to be showering and shaving ready to go to a party! (Guess who'd rather stay here...............!) Thanks again Dude your're a star! Kind regards, Lou.

Sorry - people, typo error in first post (apart from correct comma placement). 1st studio build was in 1989, not 1998. 1998 was the year I seem to remember, that John said he'd written the content for the SAE Manual! God this stuff's on my brain! :wink: Kind regards, Lou.

Aloha and welcome to the forum, Lou :D It amazes me too, how John & Glenn can get their sketches up so quickly. I've been watching to see what they come up with before joining in. :wink: Looking forward to your build! Aloha 8)

Hi Kendale, nice to know you're watching this too! Regards, Lou.

It's tight Lou - but here's an idea. cheers john

Hi John and thank you so much for getting involved so soon. You chaps are really helping to give me the necessary confidence to take this on and get it right! I don't feel like I'm on my own with it anymore which is just great. I naturally love your idea John but should point out that the first part of the build is to extend the existing garage forward which will give me around 40% more space as per my original (dodgy) sketchup file. Also I feel that my 10' ceilng height is something of a bonus, (HVAC ducting, 5:1 specs etc) This, I hope you'll agree, will make things just a bit easier! Mind you, if someone said that they wanted a studio in a phone booth I reckon you guys would figure a way of doing it! :lol: Have a great one tonight guys, and many thanks once again John. Kind regards, Lou. :)

Hi Guys, sorry but just another thing while I think of it, the Gaff window /door detail.doc that I originally posted contains details of all existing windows in the Garage as well as the new window and door on the proposed extension. The new front door is suggested to allow Musicians to enter without having to cart gear round the back, and the new front window will blend in with those on the rest of the front of the main building. Hope this helps further, and lessens any potential confusion! Cheers again people, Regards, Lou. :)

i think if you flip John's plan so the CR faces the direction of the garage door, and add the extension you'll simply have a larger live room and perhaps an extra iso booth with the main entrance on the live room side (a set of isolation capable double doors or use the iso booth idea as an air lock).

Hi Gullfo, and thank you again for your wise input! Kind of weird but it's 18.40pm here in the UK at the mo and John has probably already done ther New Year bash thing, I'm next, then you and yours my friend, followed by Kendale! So celebrations aside, I'm gonna have to be patient and wait for all of us to get the Parties out of the way before I can really steam into this! John, I hope you had a great time, We will, (hopefully), you Glenn - best wishes, and Kendale, have a good one Dude! nothing wrong with being last on the list when you live in Hawaii :lol: Kind regards (and many thanks so soon) to you all. Wishing you all the best for 2007! 8) Lou.

Aloha Lou,

nothing wrong with being last on the list when you live in Hawaii

Nothing wrong about it at all. :D It's 79 degrees and sunny. Ah, it's nice living on Hawaiian time. :wink: Mahalo for the well wishes and I hope you and yours have a safe and Happy New Year's celebration. Hau'oli Makahiki Hou! :wink: Aloha 8)

Hi again Chaps, and a very Happy New Year to you all - I hope you had a good one! I say again because I've just spent 40 mins putting this post together, but the site timed out before I posted! Oh well, so what. Time to provide a bit more info, and run an idea by you if I may. I've seen Sharward say many times that pictures often convey so much more than words - I agree so here goes...Great Timber work and drawings BTW Sharward! The view of the close from front door is only here to give you a clearer idea of the neighbourhood.

Sorry but I'm doing this in smaller sections until someone is kind enough to tell me how to avoid the 'time-out' thing.

Aloha Lou, Just keep 'em coming as you're able, and steady as she goes, Cap'n! :wink: Aloha 8)

The garage door is coming out, but so too are the 6 courses of hanging tiles immediately above it. (Up to where they then extend out to the main brickwork).

This shows a much clearer idea of the side windows, and offers a perfect location for the wall mounted exterior Air-Con units.

Simply posted to illustrate the topographical issues between the garage and the house. (Garage floor 18" below the House.)

And now people to details of the potential problems! Please excuse the mess..................It's a garage right? :lol:

I'm clearly rushing as I've put all my photo descriptions in the wrong box so they have n't posted. :evil: I'm gonna quickly look back, number them all, go get the kids from school, then supply you Guys with some explanations you can deal with! :lol: Would you believe it, catch you in a bit. Regards, Lou.

Right just try this one quickly - gutted though since the description for the front of house shot went something like: "This is obviously a view of the house from the road, and a clear testament to Glenn's skills in getting his sketch so 'bang-on' with so little info! Ah well!

OK definite cockup on my part somewhere - I just previewed the roof line shot, description all there fine and dandy, then I submitted, and it disappeared! :evil: HELP KENDALE...........................Please! :oops:

Right, back on it and desperately trying to get to the idea I want to run by you. (Site keeps throwing me out! I'm sure it's me, but still a tad frustrating!) The necessary (yet brief) descriptions for the pics. So sorry for the scrolling............ :oops: 1: What's to be removed: This simply shows the garage door from inside, and the plasterboard (that's what we call it here,) that is acting as the backing for the 6 courses of tiles that are coming out as I mentioned earlier. 2: Side windows - Wooden beam: Pretty self-explanatory, except that the wooden beam is actually a grossly over-engineered support for the garage door mechanismm and so is also coming out. 3: Utility meters: These will be tidied up and boxed in. The electricity consumer unit will be replaced incorporating its own specific technical earth. (Sorry Rod...Ground.) :wink: 4: Foul water drain cover: A bit of a shame this really, although, so many are saying, 'Don't worry', that I'm not (at the moment). This shot also reveals my glorious SOLID CONCRETE FLOOR THROUGHOUT....................... Oh no my friends it's not all bad. :lol: :lol: 5: Hot water boiler: This could be relocated if absolutely necessary. Mind you, if the small kitchen ends up being this end of the space (as per John's first sketch), then it could be made to look like part of the plan. 6: Roof line: I felt I Just couldn't leave this up here without explaining the red dots. Simply, they indicate the path of the new roof. Starting with the uppermost left hand dot, then extruding outwards horizontally to the edge of the existing structure, then pitch down to match angle and look of the porch roof in the background, before returning back to earth level! (Sorry Rod - GROUND level!) :lol: :lol: :lol:

OK, now that I’ve got a bit more detail out of the way; The Idea? It’s not that grand but those of you reading this thread will know that I’m trying to design (I use that word very loosely) and build a 5:1 digital facility. You may also remember that I’ll be using two screens for visual monitoring, (we can get to what I’m keeping some other time). If you glance at John’s idea, he clearly has the 60 degree geometry with L – C – R , but his sketch looks for all the world as if he’s gone for the 90 degree approach for LS-RS. John, if so – bloody genius, if not please put me right (imaginary circle – 150 degree surrounds etc!). Now, forgetting the surrounds just for a minute, would any of you see a potential problem with a front wall control room idea that looked like the attached drawing? By this I mean a simple re-jig of the geometry to create a 5 segment wall, where segments 1, 3, and 5 are L-C-R respectively, and segments 2 and 4 house flush, wall-mounted TFT screens. I’m sure this has been done before, but I just wanted to check. I am aware that this is the design forum, so I don’t want to do the ‘What Speaker?’ thing here, naturally. However, as a specific design issue, if I put Air 25’s in the room, even though power-rating becomes a serious room-treatment issue with my amount of space, I’m more concerned about size of speaker, particularly depth. I basically have two initial options: a) Air 25’s with 30” screens as shown in my drawing b) Air 20’s with 23” screens which will, of course, reduce the left-to-right width and, of course, front-to-back depth dramatically. In either option, the depth of the speaker cabinets is my main concern, given that I will be soffit-mounting. In addition, I want to maintain the geometry of the room (both infront of and behind the sweet spot), which is why I have previously queried John’s design at the back of the room. I am, of course, happy to be advised! :? Thanks Guys - and sorry again for all the scrolling earlier! regards Lou

Aloha Lou, Glad to see you got your pix squared away. :wink: Regarding the 5.1 endeavor - here's an excerpt for your files: The Recording Academy's Producers & Engineers Wing Recommendations for Surround Sound Production 5.1 Surround Sound Guidelines http://content.grammy.com/PDFs/Recordin ... _1_Rec.pdf Summary of Recommendations It is absolutely critical that the signal coming from all five main speakers arrive at the mixing position (the sweet spot) at the same time. This is best accomplished by having all five speakers equidistant from the mixing position. If this cannot be achieved because of the physical layout of the room, disparity in arrival time can be corrected with the use of delay. (Section 3.3.1, page 3-6) The optimum speaker distance from the mix position is between 6.5 and 7.5 feet. (Section 3.3.1, page 3-6) The center speaker should be directly facing the center of the mix position. (Section 3.3.1, page 3-6) The front L and R speakers must be toed in, angled by approximately 30°. (Section 3.3.1, page 3-6) The front speakers should not be placed on the meter bridge of the mixing console and should all be at the same height — optimally at ear height of the mixing engineer, or approximately four feet off the ground. The rear speakers should be at the same height as the front speakers. (Section 3.3.1, page 3-6) The rear L and R speakers must be toed in, angled by 110° to 150°. Optimal rear speaker angling for most environments and genres of music is in the range of 135° - 150°. (Section 3.3.1, page 3-6) The subwoofer should be positioned in front of the mixing position, between the left and right speakers. (Section 3.3.2, page 3-8) Any low-pass filter internal to the subwoofer should be set no higher than 120Hz. (Section 3.3.2, page 3-8) Bass management during mixing is an option that may be employed at the discretion of the engineer. (Section 3.4, page 3-9) The bass management crossover frequency should be set to 80Hz. (Section 3.4, page 3-9) Reference listening level for surround sound production is in the range of 79 to 85dB C-weighted. (Section 3.5, page 3-10) An RTA is the preferred method of measurement when calibrating speakers in a surround sound system. If an SPL meter is instead used, set it to C-weighting on the slow scale. (Section 3.6, page 3-10) If compensatory delay is used, add .88 milliseconds of delay for each foot of distance disparity. The use of delay is not recommended unless absolutely necessary. (Section 3.7, page 3-13) Bus-to-channel allocation should be as follows: 1 = L, 2 = R, 3 = C, 4 = LFE, 5 = Ls, 6 = Rs. Tracks of a 5.1 master should be printed identically to the bus allocations. (Section 4.2, page 4-2) Whenever signal is placed into three, four, or five speakers, it should be decorrelated. (Section 4.3, page 4-4) The LFE channel should never be used to carry the bass content of the main speaker channels. (Section 4.6, page 4-7 ) The LFE channel should be low-pass filtered at 80 - 120Hz. In most cases, selecting a frequency between 80 and 100Hz will produce the best results. (Section 4.6.1, page 4-8) The surround mastering engineer must listen on a bass-managed system to check the results of combining low frequency signals. (Section 5.3, page 5-9) The center channel downmix coefficient should be set to -3dB in relationship to the left and right front channels and the rear channels must be at the same level as the front left and right channels. Surround mixes should always be checked in a typical downmix configuration. (Section 5.5, page 5-11) Producers and record labels should refrain from using upmixing tools except in situations where the original multitrack tapes are damaged, unavailable, or do not exist. (Section 5.6, page 5-13) Hope this helps, Aloha 8)