Hi,
First, disclaimer: I've been devouring this site for a month or two, just studying while I plan. I haven't seen this question elsewhere.
Second, Ted at Green Glue has been walking me through my individual questions about the GG-two leaf system combo, and we came upon a stumper for both of us:
I'm trying to preserve height in the basement studio I'm building. I have 7'5" to work with from the bottom of the floor joists to the basement floor, which is poured concrete (1925 era).
A) He informs me that I don't need to worry about the basement floor; the mass thereof will do its work wiith just padding and carpet.
B) I suggested that I install a secondary set of joists relative to the floor joists, but raised on the foundation walls and main beam a little, enough to give me another inch or so, but still that the HC+RSIC system clears the floor joists.
1) Can someone point me in the right direction depending on
2) Is it worth it? I'll have an 18'x12' space with an 85" height ceiling, which is just about maxing out my possible construction space.
Thanks a ton, and sorry if this is one of those redundant topics treated in another basement thread (which tend to be a thousand pages long),
Dave
PS--basement studio for acoustic instrument productions, convertible to HT in the off-times.
Basement studio: joists between joists?
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 7813.
Not sure what you're going for - if you do secondary joists you shouldn't need RSIC system - but in order to span 12' with 2x6 (#2 and better, douglas fir) you'd need to use 16" centers. typically you'd build inner frames for your walls, rest those on the slab and rest the new joists on the inner walls, for a (nearly) room-in-room construction. If it's to be a single room, then a continuous ceiling would be fine; if 2 rooms and you want isolation between them, then separate ceilings/frames would be necessary.
Also, interleaved joists need to be placed so cross-ties can be added or they will twist; so the new joists need to sit a bit more than half their width below the existing joists (assuming new and old are on same centers but offset) or there won't be room for cross-bracing.
This means that a 2x6 sub-ceiling, using 2 layers of 5/8 gyp, would be approx. 4-1/2 to 5" lower than the bottom of the existing joists minimum. It also means that, for practicality, your floor space would be reduced by at least 5" on each wall in order to leave room for a gap between existing walls and new frames, and 2 layers of 5/8 gyp.
If you can draw a sketch of what you intend, (please keep it under 750 pixels wide) we can cheerfully rip it apart and make you feel bad :wink: - seriously, without a sketch neither of us knows for SURE what the other is talking about (words have a way of meaning 6 different things to 5 different people :? )
HTH... Steve
Steve, you rule -- I was going to reply with the same point, but you beat me to it. 8) Actually, Rod has an excellent illustration of this concept, including cross-bracing, in his book. Unfortunately, the limited vertical clearance in most basements often make this an unrealistic option. :( Seeing as you have only 7' 5" to start with, I'd bet you're probably out of luck on that one. Check with your local building department to see what code calls for in your jurisdiction. Most I have seen call for 7' 6" minimum finished clearance, with possibly accommodation for beams or obstructions that can drop to 7'. But don't take my word for it -- contact your local powers-that-be. I'm sure they know the answer without even having to look it up. --Keith :mrgreen:. . . interleaved joists need to be placed so cross-ties can be added or they will twist; so the new joists need to sit a bit more than half their width below the existing joists (assuming new and old are on same centers but offset) or there won't be room for cross-bracing. . . .
Heh: I noticed that was hard to avoid around here. How about a picture? Will that suffice for the visual effect? I'll show you exactly what I have. Those are furring strips spaced 12" O.C. which held up an old cardboard ceiling (the dustmaker, I called it) placed there circa 1976. *gulp* and then I'll tell you that I already ordered 40 RSICs with my GG. First things first, as you look at the pic: I'll be making a GG sandwich against the subflooring with drywall. Secondly, the joists are 7", spaced 16" O.C. When I told Ted that footfall and other two-toddler-boys-noise is the number one issue, he suggested that, in addition to two layers of drywall and GG applied to the subflooring, I also install an RSIC+HC network. So, after some further questions and research, that's what I decided to do, ordering the GG and RSICs just before I started contemplating room height. The real question remains, in my mind: what can I reasonably expect to gain sonically with one or two inches of height inside a 12'x18' space? Thanks, DaveIf you can draw a sketch of what you intend, (please keep it under 750 pixels wide) we can cheerfully rip it apart and make you feel bad :wink: - HTH... Steve
Thanks for the heads-up. DaveCheck with your local building department to see what code calls for in your jurisdiction. Most I have seen call for 7' 6" minimum finished clearance, with possibly accommodation for beams or obstructions that can drop to 7'. But don't take my word for it -- contact your local powers-that-be. I'm sure they know the answer without even having to look it up. --Keith :mrgreen:
imho, you don't have the height to be giving up inches.
also in Rods book it shows how you can add layers of sheetrock between the joist up against the subfloor pinning them in with finishing nails and caulking down the side gaps (don't waste the GG on this but maybe between the sheets). Add several layers if you want as you still have plenty of air gap left. After the last layer nail a 1x2 or 2x2 down the edge if the joist to hold it all up secure. Stuff the space with normal fluffy insulation and finish with sheetrock.
I'd pull down the strips and nail the rc directly on the joist.
Except for nailing RC directly to the joist, this is exactly what I mean to do. I suppose my original post was a bit cloudy: I was wondering whether I could raise my ceiling an inch or two by installing joists relative to the floor joists, only mounted on the foundation walls and support beam as to be above the floor joists, then hanging isolation clips (which I have, btw, more on that later) from the raised joists so that the HC clears the floor joists. But Rod's book and the engineering efforts required of me seem to disqualify that option. Nailing RC directly to the joist saves me only about a half inch, maybe an inch, as an alternate to hanging isolation clips and HC. Thanks, Daveimho, you don't have the height to be giving up inches. also in Rods book it shows how you can add layers of sheetrock between the joist up against the subfloor pinning them in with finishing nails and caulking down the side gaps (don't waste the GG on this but maybe between the sheets). Add several layers if you want as you still have plenty of air gap left. After the last layer nail a 1x2 or 2x2 down the edge if the joist to hold it all up secure. Stuff the space with normal fluffy insulation and finish with sheetrock. I'd pull down the strips and nail the rc directly on the joist.
Quickie diagrams-->one from the side, one facing the wall/beam.
Dave
I have a rather strange tale in this regard. I actually reside in Tonawanda, NY, a rather old town that sprung up around the Erie Canal and is situated between Buffalo and Niagara Falls (15 minutes from downtown Buffalo). I just moved here, bought the house, settled in, etc., etc. This morning I went to the library and read the entire building code. "How can this be?" you ask, "You must be empowered with magic to read such a massive tome in a single hour!" Indeed, the entire building code, with regard to construction, consists of a paragraph, maybe two, with a few warnings and exhortations interspersed. The paragraph in question says, specifically, that a building permit is required if I make any real changes to the floorplan of the house, which I'm not doing. One of the warnings says that all construction must conform to the General Construction Law. So I went to the library desk to ask for it. The librarian made a funny face, then directed me to go to the Tonawanda city engineer's office. So I did that. I went down there (it's in the basement of the city hall) and asked for it. She had no idea what I was talking about. Apparently, the "General Construction Law" is whatever the two guys who work down there say it is. I said, "Well, how am I supposed to know what I need a permit for and what I need inspections for?" "Just call and ask," she said. Okay, so I told her that I'm basically replacing old, damaged drywall (true) and replacing a cardboard ceiling with drywall (true). "You don't need a permit or an inspection for that. Are you changing the location of the walls?" "Absolutely not" (fudge: I extended one wall, and I'm replacing three other walls, moving them in perhaps by an inch or two for the two-leaf thing; it was actually a poorly constructed two-leaf system to begin with). She continues, "Are you covering any pipes?" "No," I said, "In fact, I'm going out of my way to avoid that. If anything, I've uncovered pipes and intend to leave them uncovered" (true). I even asked about the height requirement, reminding her that I'm only replacing a ceiling that was already here, which is absolutely true; any new ceiling may extend below the old one by a fraction of an inch, a big fraction, but still, only a fraction. Nope, no problem there, either. So, since I'm not altering walls or the actual framework of the house, I'm good to go. Even if I were to alter the electrical wiring (miracle: there was an existing circuit distinctly for just this part of the basement, so no alterations), the city wants the NY Board of Fire Underwriters to inspect it, which fee, I think, includes TWO visits, just in case I get it wrong the first time. I left the city engineer's office with the distinct impression that I was in America, and that I was free to improve my home without being pestered to death. The story for roofing and siding, on the other hand, is another story. For now, however, I shall pause to rejoice. DaveCheck with your local building department to see what code calls for in your jurisdiction. Most I have seen call for 7' 6" minimum finished clearance, with possibly accommodation for beams or obstructions that can drop to 7'. But don't take my word for it -- contact your local powers-that-be. I'm sure they know the answer without even having to look it up. --Keith :mrgreen:
Very interesting. You may want to see this post from Rod Gervais about how a state may have code that supercedes local codes. You may not be totally off the hook... :roll: ...And if you are, then you'll definitely want to care more about the safety of your build than your local government does. --Keith :mrgreen:Indeed, the entire building code, with regard to construction, consists of a paragraph, maybe two, with a few warnings and exhortations interspersed. . . I left the city engineer's office with the distinct impression that I was in America, and that I was free to improve my home without being pestered to death. The story for roofing and siding, on the other hand, is another story. For now, however, I shall pause to rejoice.
Thanks...proceeding with care. Learning much from this forum.
Dave
Dave, You aren't there yet sir. You read the "Mission Statement" for the City of Tonawanda - not the building code. The mission statement states:This morning I went to the library and read the entire building code. "How can this be?" you ask, "You must be empowered with magic to read such a massive tome in a single hour!" Indeed, the entire building code, with regard to construction, consists of a paragraph, maybe two, with a few warnings and exhortations interspersed. The paragraph in question says, specifically, that a building permit is required if I make any real changes to the floorplan of the house, which I'm not doing. One of the warnings says that all construction must conform to the General Construction Law. So I went to the library desk to ask for it. The librarian made a funny face, then directed me to go to the Tonawanda city engineer's office. So I did that.
Now - the State Building Code includes the Residential Code of New York State - which is available in softcover from this source: http://www.iccsafe.org/e/prodshow.html? ... lXZX5595|3 or- in CD format from this source: http://www.autobook-ids.com/product.htm ... ing%20Code and which is a heck of a lot more involved - and sets up a whole lot more inspection requirements - and points where permits are required - than the little bulletin your town has posted. I am not saying that you'll get into trouble if you proceed as you're talking - but the potential does exist - I say this because you still do not have anywhere a clear picture of what's involved - even in your city. BTW - this is your City's Mission Sttement in it's entirety:The building inspection department is responsible for enforcement of The New York State Uniform Fire Prevention and Building Code, The City of Tonawanda Zoning Ordinance and other local laws and ordinances.
I hope that helps to clear things up for you. Sincerely, RodBUILDING INSPECTION Kevin A. Rank Building Inspector [removed] Tonawanda NY 14150 Phone [removed] Fax [removed] E-Mail: [removed] MISSION STATEMENT The main objective of the building inspection department is to provide the residents of the City of Tonawanda with a reliable and professional building department. A wide variety of complaints, questions, issues and other relative City business is handled by this office daily. No two concerns are every the same. Great pride is taken to see that concerns and complaints are handled as quickly and as accurately as possible. Our daily goal is to insure that all City ordinances that are handled by this office are enforced as fairly and efficiently as possible and all buildings are built as safely as possible. Building safety and code compliance are our main objective so as to prevent the loss of life and property and to insure against any claims against the city. The building inspection department is responsible for enforcement of The New York State Uniform Fire Prevention and Building Code, The City of Tonawanda Zoning Ordinance and other local laws and ordinances. PERMITS This department is responsible for reviewing plans for code compliance and issuing building permits, sign permits and fence permits. After permits are issued in progress inspections are required. Building permits are required for: Roofing Siding Additions Decks Requirements to Obtain a Deck Permit Fences Fence Ordinance Swimming Pools Swimming Pool Ordinance Advertising Signs All Structural Repairs Building Permit Application .pdf File CONTRACTOR LICENSING All contractors performing work in the City of Tonawanda are required to file an application for and receive a City of Tonawanda Contractor’s License. A certificate of general liability and workman’s compensation insurance must be provided along with a filing fee of $100.00. Applications are available in the office or click here. Click here for Contractor Ordinance ELECTRICAL WORK Currently all electrical inspections are performed by the New York Board of Fire Underwriters. They can be reached at [removed] or on the Web at http://www.nybfu.org. An inspection is required for any extensions of the electrical system. Electric Ordinance PLUMBING WORK All plumbing work must be performed by a City of Tonawanda licensed plumber except that a home owner may perform plumbing work in his or her occupied dwelling. Permits are required. INFILTRATION SURVEY FOR PROPERTY TRANSFER The City of Tonawanda requires that a Certificate of Storm Water Compliance be obtained before the transfer of property. This certificate certifies that no storm water is being infiltrated into the sanitary sewer system. Infiltration Survey Application Form (.pdf file) COMPLAINTS Code violations are investigated and prosecuted for local ordinances when required. Complaints may be filed by calling [removed]. Your name and address will be required. Return to City of Tonawanda Home Page webmaster: [removed] Last Updated: 11/02/2006 10:53:40
Hi Rod,
Thanks for your attention.
I have, indeed, seen that mission statement, which is rather frustrating, as you can tell, because it doesn't clearly reference anything at all within Tonawanda code regulations, apart from that NYS reference. Truly, I tell you, I was reading the code book this morning, not just the mission statement and general outlines. It was the real deal.
I think the thing I've learned is that government produced doesn't mean clearly written.
With that complaint being said, and with prodding from the gentle members of this forum, I will be locating and reading the book which you referenced (which I found merely moments before you linked it here).
It would be nice, though, to know if the book is going to be any clearer. It's not one of those titles that's been reviewed on Amazon.com.
Furthermore--yes, I've read the stickies--what are the consequences of not reading the book? Let me ask it this way: I build a replacement wall without reading the book; just what is it that I'm looking for?
Can you feel my question? I'm looking for the right question here. Assume I've got the book: what's the advantage if Tonawanda officials don't care? How can there be multiple jursidictions on my basement?
Grr...just to hang drywall, fer cryin' out loud!
Thanks,
Dave
And a quick question:
Has anyone ever used this service to download a code book?
http://www.ecodes.biz/product.cfm?categ ... t_type=pay
It's $10 cheaper. I'm only budgeted $2K on this project, and I'm going to eventually put on a new roof, new siding, an addition to the garage, a new attic bathroom, bedroom and office, so I wouldn't want to spend $55 on a hard copy when I could save a few bucks on
THE CODE BOOK
Dave
PS--which one(s) should I actually have in hand for my projects? All 8?
Believe it or not, in spite of my reputation as "the code evangelist" (and that's the nice way of putting it ;-)), I don't own a code book. When I need the code language for something, I've been able to get consultation at my local building department office, including a photocopy of the page(s) of interest. 8) My local building department has been really (I admit, surprisingly) helpful to me. This is a contrast to some others on the forum: it seems to me hit-and-miss.
See, that surprises me... I agree that replacing damaged drywall would require no permit, no inspection. That's basically a repair with a like material. However, the ceiling, repacing flimsy cardboard (WTF? :?) with one or two layers of 2.3 psf drywall? I would think a plan checker would want to know the joist spacing and spans to look for a possible overload situation. And we already know about the "fudging" of the wall extension... :roll: Rod, thanks for the research. :-) nachmu, go buy his book! :lol: --Keith :mrgreen:Okay, so I told her that I'm basically replacing old, damaged drywall (true) and replacing a cardboard ceiling with drywall (true). "You don't need a permit or an inspection for that. . ."
Just to add a bit to the conversation:
I was researching this whole Tonawanda inspection thing, and I came across some archived newspaper and council record from the recent past (2000-2006), even some discussions this Fall, especially with regard to this "October Surprise" snowstorm we got.
There's the sense of a genuine "Don't Tread On Me" attitude here. Our population is about 16,000 (wow, right in the middle of a mid-size metropolitan area. What a nice neighborhood!). Anyway--there's this running argument whether we actually "need" an inspector; he's too busy, you see, with his other duties, so he has little time to enforce code. Therefore, the mayor wants another position to complement the city engineer. Howls of protest went up: Another position? Let Erie County provide the extra manpower; they're throwing our money away, as it is.
I'm new to all this, so it's kinda fun to watch, but frustrating when I'm ready to put screw gun to drywall screws.
Y'all want me to use this thread to post my progress, like other poor saps? It's really nice to have someone hold my hand while I do manly-man interior construction work.
Dave
I just placed the order for Rod Gervais' book, but it won't get here till next week. I have the week off, and an order of Green Glue on its way.
I had planned, upon research and various recommendations, to apply layers of drywall to the subflooring between the joists.
Upon my honor I have purchased the book--no fooling. In the meantime, would anyone like to tell me what I should be thinking about as I go about this first important step?
And, as an addendum, the ICC offers the NYS residential code book as a pdf download for $45 or so.
Thanks,
Dave
Cool -- you won't be sorry you bought Rod's book. It'll be the best howevermany dollars you spend.
Be sure not to overload your joists. See the "Safety During Demolition, Construction" thread. The third post introduces a span calculator, but you'll want to digest the entire thread.
--Keith :mrgreen:
Hi Keith,
That one is already in the files, and I'm good to go (I'll recalculate, of course). Otherwise, the idea is a good idea and this is a good place to start, unless someone says otherwise before 9am EST on Jan 3 2007.
I'll post pics! :mrgreen:
Dave
***edit*** I should add that I've checked and re-checked about inspections and permits; as a homeowner I'm very sensitive about home value, insurance and fines. As far as my project goes, which does not include any new structure, just replacement drywall and studs, I'm fine. As far as the ceiling goes, I'll be doing a third check. And as soon as I touch the electricity, I'll be calling the Underwriters.
Indeed.
Assuming your spans can support the weight, in order to salvage as much ceiling height as possible in this case I'd bring your new wall frames within 1/2 inch of the existing ceiling joists (the between-joist beef-up is a good idea if your total weight doesn't exceed span capability, I've been recommending this for several years) - Then, I would mount your RSIC's up into the joist cavities such that the hat channel they support ONLY clears your actual joists by 1/8" to 1/4" - then put one layer of 5/8 rock on the hat channel, then one on the wall frame, second one on hat channel, second one on wall frame, following all the stickies about caulking, etc - this will make it so your new finished ceiling height is only the thickness of 2 layers of wallboard plus about 1/4 to 3/8" for the resilient suspension.
This works because the weight of wallboard will load the rubber inserts in the RSIC's, increasing clearance between the hat channel and the joists enough to NOT cause hard contact.
As I mentioned, read up on all the stickies in the REFERENCE section pertaining to methods, fastener spacing, caulking, insulation, etc... Steve
Thanks, Steve,
You know, I've read those stickies probably a million--no, two million times since October. But now that I'm about to actually start construction, I feel like I haven't read a word of them.
It's amazing how much real, practical, useful information is in those stickies.
Dave
Well, I've been on pins and needles about that minimum height requirement. I got my New York State Residential Building Code book today, flipped to Part III: Chapter 3: Planning and Construction, paragraph R305, "Ceiling Height."
To wit, "Exceptions:"
WHEW! Dave :D3. Habitable space in basements may have a ceiling that projects to within 7 feet (2134 mm) of the finished floor; and beams, girders, ducts or other obstructions may project to within 6 feet, 8 inches (2032 mm) of the finished floor.
That's good! In many places, the building inspector will exercise some leeway. In my last house, I finished the basement (not as a studio), and the finished height was 6'8" with a beam over a door that came down to 6'. The inspector said it would be OK, as long as the Board of Health agreed that it didn't look like a bedroom to them. They did, and I built it.
Now, did the inspector have the right to OK it? I don't know... I haven't delved into the code that deep.
- Andy
I agree! 8) You lucked out! I wonder how typical of an exception that is... :roll: ...Not that it would change my "always check with your local building department" boilerplate recommendation, but it may affect the level of optimism that goes along with it. ;-) --Keith :mrgreen:WHEW!
Well, it can't be both ways.
I went down to the engineer's office and asked. They don't care, just so long as I don't change the layout, move walls or mess with the electricity*. They care about roofing, siding and garages. They did make the request that I ask before construction, and that will save lots of heartache. So I've fulfilled all those requirements. I don't see how I can apply in person, be denied application because they aren't interested, then have them retroactively complain that I didn't honor non-existent building code that supersedes the NYS residential code book regulations**.
Remember, I'm not actually making any significant changes to the room environment, I'm only improving them. There was an actual two-leaf system here, by accident, I'm sure, and poorly implemented, but with the framing in place. As a matter of fact, the entire place is already within state code, the framing, the electricity, the egress, the glazing--everything. I'm only replacing degraded materials and thickening existing things.
Am I still missing something?
Dave
*note: Even though I'm not extending service or adding, just the very fact that I'm going to move the outlets is going to be cause enough for me to call the Underwriters to inspect. My kids' bedrooms are right upstairs.
**note: And I'm STILL going to invite them down to look at construction and go over what I'm doing.